Am I missing something?

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='815946' date='Apr 23 2010, 11:13 AM']There was once a time when the likes of Weather Report and Return To Forever played arena-style gigs.[/quote]

True, but these were often as support bands or at festivals and not as headliners. Neverthelss, as you say, they had sufficient appeal to appear at pretty mainstream popular music events. Miles Davis used to do things at the Filmore's but only supporting people like Sly & The Family Stone etc (much to the chagrin of the dark prince).

[urb]

It's called making a living... music is very tough to make ends meet (albeit is you teach, do function bands or big pop shows you can earn good money) but you can still play well and do your pop job with integrity - I've listened to some of Janek's b-lines with VV brown and I thought they were killing - really grooving and actually creative considering the restrictions of that kind of gig.

Guys like Nigel Hitchcock - UK alto sax monster - have done hundred and hundreds of pop/film/rock sessions - it doesn't affect his credentials as a top jazz sax player - just because you can play jazz does not and should not mean you are unable or unwilling to play different styles of music. Why should that be any different for bassists, guitarists or drummers...? - and the fact you can solo all day doesn't mean you get a gig because of it... it's great to have those skills but I guarantee that most bandleaders - including jazz ones - don't want some noodle monster bassist if they can't nail the bass parts - the ability to solo is bonus not a prerequisite to being a 'good' player.

Mike

[Bilbo]

[quote name='urb' post='815995' date='Apr 23 2010, 11:37 AM']but I guarantee that most bandleaders - including jazz ones - don't want some noodle monster bassist if they can't nail the bass parts - the ability to solo is bonus not a prerequisite to being a 'good' player.[/quote]

Absolutely. And what is worse, you don't want someone who spends their time failng to be a credible solist AT THE EXPENSE OF core skills. Almost everyone starts working on Donna Lee long before they can REALLY nail a shuffle.

[Conan]

[quote name='Faithless' post='815921' date='Apr 23 2010, 10:54 AM']People always find a chance to express their opinions towards something, even it is not asked/discussed in the main theme.. Cheers,Faith[/quote]

Such is the nature of internet forums/fora.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Faithless' post='815107' date='Apr 22 2010, 03:56 PM']There's a short one..

To me, it's a bit strange - [b]one day a guy is pushing music boundaries in Blue Note with some smokin' jazzers [/b](Garrison with Horacio Hernandez and Scott Kinsey..), [b]and the other day he's playing behind Whitney Houston..[/b]

Same one with Janek Gwizdala - [b]he plays with Mike Stern,[/b] who has big tours on Europe, Canada, Asia and so on, [b]but then, he passes Stern's gig to other folks, cuz he's doing tv shows with VV Brown[/b], working as an MD for her, as I suppose..


[b]They're both smoking players, 'dedicated' for jazz [/b](as they say..), but..
[b]I don't get it - is it all just money thing, or there's something beyond it?[/b]

[b]I believe, I wouldn't pass gigs with jazz giants just because I'd get a chance to do some tv show..[/b][/quote]


Snobbish attitude. That's the only way I can read it.

[Pete Academy]

Look at drummer Ricky Lawson. He was on the ground-breaking Yellowjackets first fusion album. He has toured with Michael Jackson and Steely Dan, to name a couple. But it's his groove that's of foremost importance and gets him the high-profile gigs. Same with Omar Hakim.

It's no different with bass players.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Pete Academy

[Pete Academy]

I've nothing against the OP, but to turn down playing with a 'jazz giant' would only happen if I had a shitload of money to spare.

[Bilbo]

To be fair to Faithless, I think the point he is making is that he would not turn down a great jazz gig for a commercial one, not that he wouldn't do the commercial one.

I think the point is a valid one but I think it is important to point out how crappy some of this great 'smokin' jazz gigs can be. There is a Mike Stern dvd out there where he is filmed (in a washed out black and white) playing in that 55 Bar where he has had a residency for 200 years. It is, to all intents and purposes, a crappy little pub gig. I have seen photos of gigs by Coltrane and Paul Chambers etc and the s*** tips some of these guys had to play, right up to the day they died, was astonishing. Now, if the music is great, then the music is great but I suspect that, like any gig, playing with the same people for years is going to get dull and predictable (lots of Stern tunes are riff orientated so, for a player, they will have limited attraction), especially if teh places being layed are seedy little clubs. A change may be a way of breaking an impasse. Add the opportunity to earn great money (which Gwiz may be able to use to fund his next cd), to travel, to meet new people, to eat great food in great hotels etc and you can see why players may take the gig.

I think, for a lot of us, it is hard to understand how unglamourous the life of a jazz musician can be. Living for the music is all well and good but its not an 'all or nothing' thing. Stern's music is great but its not the be all and end all, even for jazzers. I can see why Gwiz would hand that gig on (someone, after all, handed it to him). I'd do the Stern gig for a bit, Janek. Call me on.......

[keving]

It seems like the majority opinion here is that being dedicated to playing a genre shouldn't preclude you from enjoying playing in another genre, and I wholeheartedly agree with this. In the past with different bands I have played Classic Rock, Soul, Blues, Pop and Disco and I've recently started taking lessons in Jazz. Each time I have thoroughly enjoyed it and at the same time learned something new and improved my playing.
I think everyone can benefit from playing outside their comfort zone every once in a while.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Faithless' post='815921' date='Apr 23 2010, 10:54 AM']Anyone else want to add? [/quote]

I'd like to add that I don't think you're a snob, or at least your snobbery doesn't bother me. And I'm a bit surprised that so many people decided to take a pop at you over this thread.

Now I must go because there are people in my garden who I've never seen before and I'm a bit worried I might not have paid my daffodil tax or something.

[Conan]

[quote name='keving' post='816084' date='Apr 23 2010, 12:35 PM']I think everyone can benefit from playing outside their comfort zone every once in a while.[/quote]

Absolutely! But I think the difference in this thread is when we are talking about professional musicians. If someone is a pro in a certain genre of music, does that preclude them from playing (or more particularly, getting [b]paid[/b][i][/i] for playing) a different genre? Some people would seem to think so.

To me, its all music - and if you make your living playing music it's your choice what you choose to get involved in. Most pro bass players do not seem to be in the privileged position of being able to be choosy though!

[Pete Academy]

I found out recently that, until he gets another gig, James Lomenzo has been selling furniture in a friend's shop.

[Doddy]

I think you can look at it another way.
There are players who will only play in their original rock bands and who would never dream
of doing anything else,because either they see it as 'selling out' or they don't have the
ability to branch out (usually). These are also the ones who have to work in Tesco. In the same
way, I know guys who only play jazz,who will gig every night of the week,but won't earn as much
as a player at one function gig. Granted,these players are usually either supported by their wife or
retired.
I think to make a living now,you need as many skills as you possibly can. You need to be able to
lay down simple root notes and you need to be able to swing hard.If you can read a chart and play
upright(even synth bass),you will be more employable. If you choose to stick to your own niche area,
unless your band gets big or you are extremely lucky,you will have to get a day job,because having
'integrity' doesn't pay the bills.
While playing great music with great players to an appreciative,but small,audience is a great feeling,
so is playing 'less'(?) great music to thousands. Players like Janek are in a position where they get the
calls for big gigs and the smaller 'players' gigs because they have worked hard honing their skills to be
able to do them.


....And they don't have to work in McDonalds.

[SteveK]

A simple fact of life: Turn a job down once - chances are, you won't be asked again.

Musicians are generally an insecure bunch, but by taking these "lesser" gigs, aside from the money, you are keeping your options open. One gig often leads to another.

Many's the time that I've chatted with band-mates and other musicians about a gruelling journey or something else that has p***ed us off. But, in the end, the one thing we all agree on... At least we're working! There are many (fine) musicians out there without a gig!


BTW I'm writing this from a Hamburg hotel room, having driven last night to Dover, met the bus and then 12 miserable (thanks to a bad case of sciatica) hours overnight to Hamburg. Thanks to that friggin' volcano. It wasn't pleasant, but... at least - I've got a gig.

Oh, and I don't think the op's post was "snobby"...more naive, perhaps!

[Doddy]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='816141' date='Apr 23 2010, 01:14 PM']I found out recently that, until he gets another gig, James Lomenzo has been selling furniture in a friend's shop.[/quote]

That speaks volumes. He's a great player in his own niche,but he is also a 'rock' sideman who may
or may not have the ability to branch out. He may be able to,but his reputation has put him in a
genre that places more emphasis on 'band' members than sidemen,so he will find it harder to go from
gig to gig,and 'pop' MD's will overlook him because he's a 'rocker'.

[4000]

[quote name='Shockwave' post='815172' date='Apr 22 2010, 04:45 PM']I liked both forms of music,[/quote]

Strange how people don't consider this. Whilst undoubtedely a well paying gig, maybe they actually still enjoy doing the non-jazz gigs. It's all music. Plenty of musicians (and very good ones) simply enjoy playing music, fullstop. I never think it's weird a musician from one genre playing in another.

[Sibob]

I think the OP's original post indicates that they believe Jazz to be better than all other Genres, or certainly thats their preference as opposed to other more 'simple' music.
The reason I say that is because they don't seem to be able to accept that perhaps these players LIKE playing their pop gigs. If the guys hated it, I perhaps think that their careers would be shortlived through bitterness.

I can honestly say that I'd be very hard pushed to not enjoy any gig, Genre aside, I think if you're truely a fan of music, you'll find an aspect of any genre (if you think about music in that way) to enjoy!
Same with these guys, I bet you Garrison and Gwizdala don't see these gigs as Pop/rent over Jazz.....they see it as fun whilst getting paid.

Si

[Sibob]

4000 beat me to it!

Si

[Faithless]

[quote name='Conan' post='816131' date='Apr 23 2010, 03:07 PM']Absolutely! But I think the difference in this thread is when we are talking about professional musicians. If someone is a pro in a certain genre of music, does that preclude them from playing (or more particularly, getting [b]paid[/b][i][/i] for playing) a different genre? Some people would seem to think so.[/quote]


No, it doesn't preclude them from anything.
I just can't believe, how some people manage to garble my words, or 'add' something, and then, from all of that, 'making' me a snob. Amazing.
Anyway, Bilbo was damn right about my point - I'm not about 'not doing' a thing, I'm just about what would I choose between two, if I had a chance to.

[JTUK]

If you play with good players.... and this is RELATIVE... you can make anything fun.

Great playing is great playing, IMV

[Gust0o]

I'll second naive over snobby, thank you SteveK - the trick is in learning from the experience, and understanding a little bit more about yourself and the people around you.

Music, and our preferences therein, will always be a subjective topic. To debate the merits of one form against another, in such a mixed environment (with a range of commentators, both in their preferences and exposure to the world of bass playing), would never reveal anything beyond our own biases.

From a purely musical perspective, it may well appear a fair comment to wonder aloud at why musicians might opt for [i]popular[/i] music over jazz - but the financial and professional lenses are good ones to shine on this. Why do professionals do anything?

The need to make a living is a key one, and one most of us can readily relate to - remuneration; exposure; professional and personal development; networking. I think you'll find these themes coming out in more than just the careers of professional musicians.

[fatback]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='815146' date='Apr 22 2010, 04:22 PM']I am a member of a closed jazz research forum that features many of the world's leading jazz journalists and they have been recently talking about the issue of how few jazz musicians are able to make a living from only playing jazz (i.e. thay have to teach etc). With very few exceptions (Keith Jarrett, Pat Metheny etc), most musicians limp from one festival season to the next taking any gig they can in order to pay the rent. Many of them have commercial outlets and some of them are consciously making money from a commercial gig in order to fund their jazz activities. Its real world stuff. We all like the concept of the uncompromising artist who suffers for their art but, in reality, why should the greatest players in the world live like tramps in order to produce an art product that is, at best, a minority interest. Its another romantic fantasy that doesn't hold up to close inspection. Early in his career, Joe Lovano earned less thna his wife, Judy Silvano. She was the hat check girl at the Village Vanguard.

One top saxophone player (top 5 in the jazz world) was once asked whether he thought it had been worth it. His response? 'No'. He went onto describe how he had had to watch his kids grow up without many of the benefits that come from a secure income: decent schools, health benefits etc. As they get older many of these guys (in the US) get ill and can't get the help they need because they have little or no medical cover and no chips to cash in (no house to sell, no insurance policies etc). A great and influential cd from 1994 is not going to get you a heart bypass.

These guys are just balancing the need to make a living with the need to make good music.

In truth, if you have played heavy jazz to small audiences for years, it can be a real buzz to pay dance music for a stadium full. Money aside, its good to see people get off on what you do.[/quote]

As good a description as I've ever read of what an artistic vocation can really mean.

'Real world' is right.

[bassace]

Great Posts! I don't think the OP was being in anyway snobby. What most of us are cool about and regard as a fact of musical life hadn't quite got to him yet? All the stuff I now play is jazz but I have great respect for anyone who goes out on a gig and does it well, whether it's pop, rock, covers, folk, jazz or whatever. If someone phoned and offered me a tour with a good pop show I'd jump at it.

Only two kinds of music; good and bad.

[Faithless]

[quote name='Sibob' post='816177' date='Apr 23 2010, 03:38 PM']I think the OP's original post indicates that they believe Jazz to be better than all other Genres, or certainly thats their preference as opposed to other more 'simple' music.
The reason I say that is because they don't seem to be able to accept that perhaps these players LIKE playing their pop gigs. If the guys hated it, I perhaps think that their careers would be shortlived through bitterness.[/quote]

I didn't say about claiming Jazz to better than anything else, but, can you deny, that those guys' preference is Jazz? I couldn't.

Even more, nor you, nor I can tell, if Janek or Matt is enjoying those pop gigs. If they're smiling to the cameras, it doesn't ANYTHING about them - loving or hating, what they do. They simply have to do their job, smiling and doing whatever else it needs..

Edited April 23, 2010 by Faithless

[Bilbo]

My life experience tells me that, whilst I can enjoy any gig, I can't enjoy 'any' gig for very long. I have a wedding band gig tomorrow. I do one a month. I like it. The band is hot and the grooves PAP (phat as ph**k). But, if you asked me to do that gig 3 x per week every week, I would cave in by about week three. I can play jazz every day no problem. I can't really do that with any other genre.

Fortunately, I don't have to.