Help please: Overwound PUPs?

[Beedster]

I'm looking to buy a set of Lindy Fralin Precision PUPs. A lot of those from the states seem to have been overwound anything between 5% and 10%. Can anyone explain what this means to tone, and why they all seem to be overwound, does this suggest that the original winding isn't sufficient (or that no-one buys overwound PUPs and all the normal ones have sold)?

C

Edited April 23, 2010 by Beedster

[Clarky]

The only thing I can add is that the Shuker JJ Burnel uses "slightly overwound" custom P pickups - given JJ's sound, it tends to suggest that overwinding increases output. Sounds logical to me anyway but could be utter piffle

[The Bass Doc]

You should expect overwound pickups to have more output but, if you keep on overwinding, the treble content starts to diminish. 5-10% isn't too much but, then again, a tweak on the amplifier gain with standard pickups gets you there anyway so I begin to think a bit of hype enters the equation.

Point is, there's not much mileage in offering standard output pickups when the manufacturer is seeking to sell units which are regarded as an upgrade.

Does this make sense? (I had a few lagers last night).

[Stewart]

I think the overall tone is likely to be deeper/darker too (all other things being equal)

(Edit - late again )

Edited April 23, 2010 by Stewart

[Beedster]

Thanks guys. I had a chat with a guy in a shop a few years back who was bemoaning the fact that nearly all aftermarket bass PUPs were so loud (i.e., high output), arguing that the best bass tone is achieved with a relatively low O/P PUP. OK, this was clearly a subjective opinion, but he made a lot of sense. Having owned a lot of 'hot' PUPs (e.g., SD QPs), I do find that I prefer the tone of my old Precision PUPs, even though the output volume is noticeably lower. If overwound means less treble, that's not a bad thing for sure, especially as I tend to roll of the tone, but does it add anything to tone, or is it just an output thing? I'm wanting a Lindy Fralin and am going to be using it with a P-Retro, so I'm guessing O/P isn't as big an issue as basic tone?

Chris

[BassBod]

I've trie a few in the past, and generally not liked them - partly because they can sound dull/aggessive and partly because my Pbasses have always had a J added and it just makes a bad balance worse!

Having said that I really liked the old DiMarzio, has a nice mid edge to it, and really liked the Seymour Duncan trad version. Its also worth noting that stock Fender pickups can vary a lot...so overwinding isn't such a new idea. As the good Doc says, the after market sellers need to show an improvement..however slight..over the original.

[Low End Bee]

Recently I've tried:

SD SPB1 vintage - Nice even, old school P bass tone. Very good general purpose tone.
Dimarzio model P. An original 70s one - Very hot. Lots of bass and low mids. has to go in active inputs.
Dimarzio model P newish - Not as hot same sort of tone.
Fender S1 std - Very nice and similar to the SD.
Wizard Thumper - A bit like a darker SPB1 with a little more output. My favourite. I don't need variety and this suits my band mix well.

[Ancient Mariner]

It just alters the tonality a bit and the manner in which it will push an amp into overdrive. I'm not sure what it's like in the bass world, but with guitars it is quite different to just hoofing the gain control. Overall, side by side I find overwound pickups of otherwise the *same specification* to sound duller and more nasal. A high output pickup needs to be designed on purpose - it's no good just adding more turns to a vintage style PU. However if you have a vintage style pickup that is very toppy and harsh/bright then it can mellow it out a bit and help give it a bit more kick.

In this case, I'd be pretty sure the most powerful effect a 5% overwind has is in the marketing.

[escholl]

If you're going to buy from the US, go with [url="http://www.bestbassgear.com/lindy-fralin-pickups.htm"]Best Bass Gear[/url], I've used them before and they're good. They've also got not over-wound Lindy Fralin P's, I bought a pair for my bass a couple years ago and I wouldn't trade them for anything else, really amazing pickups and didn't seem to be excessively hot. YMMV, of course.

[ikay]

The following may help (taken from [url="http://forum.ibanez.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=69722)"]http://forum.ibanez.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=69722)[/url]. Other factors affecting tone include the gauge of the wire (as well as the number of turns) and the winding pattern (which affects capacitance and harmonic content).

Manufacturers can determine the amount of output and tone a pickup has by altering two basic things:

1) The strength of the magnet. A stronger magnets creates a stronger magnetic field, and when that field is disrupted by the vibrating guitar string, a greater amount of flux is produced, generating a stronger signal. An unfortunate side effect of the stronger magnetic field is string pull. Extremely strong magnets can actually attract the strings and kill their vibrations, killing the sustain of the pickup.

2) The amount of turns of copper wire or the type of wire. Increasing the amount of copper or increasing its size will increase the resistance (impedance) and the inductance of the pickup, resulting in a higher output . A result of increasing impedance is the attenuation (loss) of highs in the signal. "Overwound" pickups are usually very bass and mid heavy and lack highs.

Pickup makers will experiment with these two factors (along with others) to change and create the sound of a pickup. For example, manufacturers will often use higher output ceramic magnets to retain some of the highs of their higher output pickups since the increased magnet strength will allow them to use less copper wiring, attenuating less of the highs.

One common misconception about pickups is that magnet have a direct effect on your tone. This is not true!!! The "Alnico magnets are warm, Ceramic magnets are harsh" theory is madness!! The role a magnet plays in the pickup is to create the magnetic field. The strength of the magnetic field determines the pickups OUTPUT, and different magnets can have different strengths. Tone is determined by the diameter and amount of copper wire, which creates the amount of inductance on the pickup. Remember, the higher the inductance and impedance, the less highs are put out. Magnets can have a small impact on some of the characteristics of the notes you play. For example, ceramic magnets have a higher output, which will generally create more punch and a sharper attack. Alnico magnets (depending on the type, there are 8) are usually weaker and have a softer, smoother attack, and may have a "spongy" feel. However, this has no effect on the amount of lows, mids, and highs sent out by the pickup, which is defined as tone. There are warm ceramic pickups and harsh alnico pickups out there.

Other factors affecting tone and output include construction of the pickup - eg. single coil (generally brighter and lower output) or humbucker (generally darker and higher output).

[dan670844]

[quote name='Beedster' post='815797' date='Apr 23 2010, 09:29 AM']Thanks guys. I had a chat with a guy in a shop a few years back who was bemoaning the fact that nearly all aftermarket bass PUPs were so loud (i.e., high output), arguing that the best bass tone is achieved with a relatively low O/P PUP. OK, this was clearly a subjective opinion, but he made a lot of sense. Having owned a lot of 'hot' PUPs (e.g., SD QPs), I do find that I prefer the tone of my old Precision PUPs, even though the output volume is noticeably lower. If overwound means less treble, that's not a bad thing for sure, especially as I tend to roll of the tone, but does it add anything to tone, or is it just an output thing? I'm wanting a Lindy Fralin and am going to be using it with a P-Retro, so I'm guessing O/P isn't as big an issue as basic tone?

Chris[/quote]


I could be wrong ! usually am! but I think it also depends on how the pickups have been wound, scatter wound (hand wound) pickups rather than machine wound ( all mass market jobs) generally sound much better, something to do with the field they generate. If you have a spare afternoon! give Andy at Wizard pickups a ring. He handwound some standard output pups for one of my jazzes. They sound amazing, a much more even sound all for £70!!. They have a much more flat response across the Freq which is what you want and they are perfectly matched so they cut into each other perfectly when blended together to give that classic mid-scoop (i.e. Not like Fender's!!). The original Fullerton Fenders had scatterwound pickups made my little old ladies, i guess the pickups contributed a lot to the voice of these instruments.