4StringHell Posted November 15, 2007 Share Posted November 15, 2007 (edited) Hey guys, I'm at a slightly emotional crunch point in my bass playing and could really use some guidance. (I know nothing of the crunch) After several years of cheating my way through learning bass... I've finally realised its time to learn it properly. I've <just> gotten away with only 'learning' tablature, basic patterns, slides and chords, and basically learnt to play in the 'Oliveri box' stoner rock style. Its not bad for the grunge bands I've been in... but now I'm in an art/rock band with some classical muso's and my half arsed approach has me somewhat ashamed of how little I know. I've been re-inspired to try and get to the next level! I've got three questions which I'd really appreciate some help with: Firstly I blatantly need to learn my scales and notes, but should I learn the fretboard before I learn the scales...?? 'cause if I start with scales I'll be thinking in tab... which is pointless I guess. Secondly I never learnt the whole thumb behind the neck / 4 fingers on 4 frets thing as I switched over from guitar and just stuck with that thumb over the top style as I coudlnt reach 4 frets! Should I start on this as well or is it not such a problem? I'm hesitant 'cause it'll be a major setback. I've noticed some pretty ace players not doing the 4 fret reach. Do 3/4 length necks help much or is that cheating ?? Keep in mind I dont need to play walking or funk bass parts. Lastly I love playing in drop D and was wondering if this is a bad way to learn? Should I tune my whole bass down a half and get used to that instead?? I dont want to get a 5 string as I find they slow me down a lot. The whole sometimes in E, sometimes in D just confuses what little note response time I have! Any bass Yoda advice would be hugely appreciated !!! Its time to knuckle down and do my Warwick some justice!! Thanks a million guys! Edited November 15, 2007 by 4StringHell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urb Posted November 15, 2007 Share Posted November 15, 2007 [quote name='4StringHell' post='89008' date='Nov 15 2007, 04:30 PM']Hey guys, I'm at a slightly emotional crunch point in my bass playing and could really use some guidance. (I know nothing of the crunch) After several years of cheating my way through learning bass... I've finally realised its time to learn it properly. I've <just> gotten away with only 'learning' tablature, basic patterns, slides and chords, and basically learnt to play in the 'Oliveri box' stoner rock style. Its not bad for the grunge bands I've been in... but now I'm in an art/rock band with some classical muso's and my half arsed approach has me somewhat ashamed of how little I know. I've been re-inspired to try and get to the next level! I've got three questions which I'd really appreciate some help with: Firstly I blatantly need to learn my scales and notes, but should I learn the fretboard before I learn the scales...?? 'cause if I start with scales I'll be thinking in tab... which is pointless I guess. Secondly I never learnt the whole thumb behind the neck / 4 fingers on 4 frets thing as I switched over from guitar and just stuck with that thumb over the top style as I coudlnt reach 4 frets! Should I start on this as well or is it not such a problem? I'm hesitant 'cause it'll be a major setback. I've noticed some pretty ace players not doing the 4 fret reach. Do 3/4 length necks help much or is that cheating ?? Keep in mind I dont need to play walking or funk bass parts. Lastly I love playing in drop D and was wondering if this is a bad way to learn? Should I tune my whole bass down a half and get used to that instead?? I dont want to get a 5 string as I find they slow me down a lot. The whole sometimes in E, sometimes in D just confuses what little note response time I have! Any bass Yoda advice would be hugely appreciated !!! Its time to knuckle down and do my Warwick some justice!! Thanks a million guys![/quote] I'm sure others will have loads of good advice but I'll give you a few pointers: Re scales - there are some good bits here: [url="http://www.angelfire.com/id/bass/"]http://www.angelfire.com/id/bass/[/url] My general approach was to learn every scale all over the neck from top to bottom - Jaco demos this on his video and all it means is being able to play C major for example - everywhere. Going vertically 'across' the neck and then horizonatally - up and down. Practice scales slowly and look at the relationship between notes on the fretboard - half tones, whole tones, major and minor thirds - and then bigger intervals like fifths, sixths, sevenths, elevenths, 13s, etc - take it slow. Re hand position on the neck - some people can play loads of stuff without holding their hand correctly but I've foind that by having my thuimb properly secured behind the neck that my fingering hand works effortlessly - and it's also less likely that you will do yourself and injury - good techniques are developed for both ease of playing and 'health and safety' reasons - it's not the law but it does help you play better and look after yourself better IMO. Thirdly the drop tuning thing is cool - I drop D on my Thumb bass quite a lot but I've learnt how to finger octaves and some scales with it - but you might make a whole heap of more work if you dropped your whole bass down a tone - but it might be very cool too. You could always get a 5 string - I love a low B too - so there are lots of options - my advice is experiment and see what feels best to you. Hope some of that helps - I'm sure others can provide a load more good advice - I hand you over to SAlun and the boys Cheers Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alun Posted November 15, 2007 Share Posted November 15, 2007 Hello. There are no real absolutes in music - what works for one person may not work for another but these are my opinions based on what's worked for me.... 1. To me, knowing the fretboard inside out is more important than any number of scales. You could know every mode of every scale in terms of fingering and tab but if you don't know where "C" is when someone says "play a C", it's not going to help you. So, with that in mind, learn the board. There are two ways to do it - up each string or position by position - but unfortunately there aren't any shortcuts. The good news is that that the 12th fret is the same note as the open string, but up an octave and then the 13th fret is the same name note as the 1st, the 14th is the same as the 2nd and so on. You can either learn one string at a time, eg work your way up the E, then the A, etc or take all the notes in a certain position and learn them across the neck eg take the area between the 5th and 8th frets and learn all the notes in there. By doing it in positions, it becomes easier to recognise intervals, eg you can see that there is an A at the 5th fret of the E string and another at the 7th fret of the D - voila, an octave. Once you've learned the board, you're so much freer to explore. Which takes me on to learning scales - try and learn to play each scale starting with any finger, not just one pattern. This way, it frees you up to play ideas without having to make sudden position changes to get your hand into a familiar shape. You often see bassists jumping positions simply because they don't know that they could play it just as easily where they are. For instance, let's look at a C major scale starting on the 8th fret of the E string with your middle finger - 8th on the E, 10th on the E string ( little finger), then 7th ( first finger), 8th ( middle) and 10th ( little finger ) on the A string and 7th ( first ), 9th ( middle) and 10th ( little finger) on the D string. A lot of players leave it at that, which is fine, but I really recommend also learning it starting on the first and fourth fingers ( you can start it on the 3rd finger as well but it's basically the same as the 4th finger) ... Starting on your first finger - 8th, 10th, 12th on the E string, 8th, 10th, 12th on the A string, 9th and 10th on the D string Starting on your 4th finger - 8th on the E string, 5th, 7th, 8th on the A string, 5th,7th and 9th on the D string and 5th on the G string Alternative 4th finger version - 8th on the E string, 5th, 7th and 8th on the A string, 5th and 7th on the D string, 4th and 5th on the G string I know it's a lot of info, and might seem a bit mind boggling at first so take each one slowly ( there's no deadline to know this stuff by) and you'll find it really helps. 2. Hand position - as Mike said above, keeping your thumb at the back of the neck does make the movements smoother and easier on your hands generally, but the height of your bass might affect this. Ultimately you want to keep your wrists pertty straight, so if your bass is really low having your thumb at the back of the neck might cause problems ( the ultimate answer is to raise your bass, but not everyone is comfortable with that). Don't worry about the "stretch" of one finger per fret too much. With your thumb at the back of the neck, you are able to pivot and "reach" that way rather than stretvhing your digits. A lot of players use a three fret stretch - first finger, middle and little finger - especially on the lower frets. A 3/4 neck will make stretches easier but you may find the tone of shorter scale basses may not appeal to you. Stu Hamm, Matthew Garrison, Janek Gwizdala - all have played incredible things on short scale instruments and no one would accuse them of cheating Ultimately though, if you've already got a nice bass it would be a shame to change it. 3. Tuning - ultimately it'll be down to what you're comfortable with. Personally I have enough difficulty keeping up with standard tuning! Whatever you choose, make sure you know where the notes are as ultimately it's the music that comes out that counts regardless of whether you're in standard tuning or something else. Also, and I am being a bit presumptious here so forgive me if I'm wrong , don't just tune to suit the TAB - learning the notes of the neck will really free you up. You might be surprised how much you already know from playing, it's just that right now you may not know the terminology. Hope that helps. If there any questions, please let me know and I'll try to help Cheers, Alun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted November 15, 2007 Share Posted November 15, 2007 It's OK to want to strive for the next level, and sometimes it is tough, but your "art/rock" band asked you to join so they must like something about you and how you currently play. Be happy that they think you are good enough for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4StringHell Posted November 15, 2007 Author Share Posted November 15, 2007 I appreciate what you're saying Chris... but... uummm... <looks sideways> ...well I kind of... I started the band... ha ha!! I dont want to be the weak link is all. Thats really kind of you guys to help out though. I like what you guys are saying about scales up and across. Do you try to think the notes while you play them? I like that exercise as well Alun. Thats the only scale I know but thats a good tip about the different ways of playing it. Its quite obvious now that I play it! What you say Urb "half tones, whole tones, major and minor thirds - and then bigger intervals like fifths, sixths, sevenths, elevenths, 13s, etc" this is exactly the stuff I have no idea about. I know 5ths from my guitar days as thats just a power chord... but thats it. Better dig out the text books! I'll work on my thumb placement too... I can kind of do it... but its really tiring! and nowhere near as powerful as what I'm used to. it does free up your pinky though! interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Burpster Posted November 15, 2007 Share Posted November 15, 2007 I have a great book called "The gig bag book of bass scales" by Joe dineen and Mark Bridges....yes it has scales in tab and notation... but I find thats a great way to learn ......I flop the book open, and learn D Lydian today.... I'm still learning new shapes after 2 years.... dont give up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alun Posted November 15, 2007 Share Posted November 15, 2007 [quote name='4StringHell' post='89104' date='Nov 15 2007, 07:41 PM']Do you try to think the notes while you play them?[/quote] While you're learning the scales, it's good to know what the notes are as this will help with your fingerboard knowledge too. I don't tend to consciously think of them as such now. Cheers, Alun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenofthedepths Posted November 15, 2007 Share Posted November 15, 2007 I recently told someone who was trying to learn scales that they should know where the notes are on the fretboard before they start learning scales - after all, how can you play C major without being able to find C? You need to know where to find every note on every single string, all up and down the fretboard It's also pretty much essential to know what those intervals are - for reference: half tone = one fret whole tone = two frets minor third = three frets major third = four frets perfect fourth = five frets flattened fifth/sharpened fourth = six frets perfect fifth = seven frets minor sixth = eight frets major sixth = nine frets minor seventh = ten frets major seventh = eleven frets octave = twelve frets eleventh is a fourth plus one octave and a thirteenth is a sixth plus one octave - that's a bit more complicated but you get the hang of it eventually... Then subtract 5 frets for each string you skip (e.g. major sixth = 1 string and 4 frets) and you're sorted - also learn the chromatic scale to get used to practising the intervals, coz it uses all of them There's really nothing wrong with playing drop D - in fact I'd say you were making a mistake if you never played in dropped tuning! After all, the top 3 strings are still tuned normally, so as long as you use them too... personally I like to use a low B a lot (what do you mean about it slowing you down..?), but I sometimes tune to the same as the guitarists if they're in dropped tuning - usually I just tune down all the strings though, but that's coz I'm not sure how I'd drop tune a 7-string anyway... so yeah, using lots of different tunings is a good idea As for having started the band, they still wanted to play with you! So they must think you're alright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urb Posted November 15, 2007 Share Posted November 15, 2007 [quote name='queenofthedepths' post='89120' date='Nov 15 2007, 08:26 PM']half tone = one fret whole tone = two frets minor third = three frets major third = four frets perfect fourth = five frets flattened fifth/sharpened fourth = six frets perfect fifth = seven frets minor sixth = eight frets major sixth = nine frets minor seventh = ten frets major seventh = eleven frets octave = twelve frets eleventh is a fourth plus one octave and a thirteenth is a sixth plus one octave - that's a bit more complicated but you get the hang of it eventually... Then subtract 5 frets for each string you skip (e.g. major sixth = 1 string and 4 frets) and you're sorted - also learn the chromatic scale to get used to practising the intervals, coz it uses all of them[/quote] This is a good start - but I really meant that you need to know how to play the different intervals across the strings - because the way you've writted this out - while being fantastically clear - only deals with a single string. It's obviously essential to know where intervals fall on a single string too - but practically speaking you are most likely (or should hopefully) play bigger intervals over several strings. IE Playing a major tenth of C major - when you play the C on the 8th fret of the E string - is only ONE fret higher but on the G string... the note is E - but it's 10 notes away from C... so you should try and learn the scale from E string to G string - and up each string - see the diagrams on the link to the Angelfire website I posted earlier. Another good way of looking at scales is on a piano - it's the clearest way to get a 'visual' image of how they work. OK last bit - the way I learnt many scales was by developing a mental image of them - so I can visualise a shape in my head - and project it onto the finger board - while I don't think the names of each note I do know how they 'sound' - ER the difference between a minor or major third, flattened seventh etc - so I can aim for the 'chord tones' (the notes that make up a chord, as in 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th etc) so if I'm improvising or not looking at the neck for whatever reason - I have my mental map to guide me. Visualising stuff is key to 'looking ahead' and thinking ahead when playing a tune - for getting your hand in position for a key change etc - anyway it's a big subject - loads of good advice here - best thing is to get a Scales Thesaurus and get working on it. Any more questions just shoot M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenofthedepths Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 That's why I said "subtract 5 frets for each string you skip (e.g. major sixth = 1 string and 4 frets)" - I'm afraid I couldn't think of a simpler way to put it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urb Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 [quote name='queenofthedepths' post='89230' date='Nov 16 2007, 08:52 AM']That's why I said "subtract 5 frets for each string you skip (e.g. major sixth = 1 string and 4 frets)" - I'm afraid I couldn't think of a simpler way to put it...[/quote] That's fine dude - it's not very easy to explain - my version isn't much better... - I just wanted to attempt to describe the importance of getting to know how to do this - no offence intended OK Cheers Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cooke Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 [quote name='4StringHell' post='89104' date='Nov 15 2007, 07:41 PM']What you say Urb "half tones, whole tones, major and minor thirds - and then bigger intervals like fifths, sixths, sevenths, elevenths, 13s, etc" this is exactly the stuff I have no idea about. I know 5ths from my guitar days as thats just a power chord... but thats it. Better dig out the text books![/quote] Get either of the following books... (or both...) Fretboard Roadmaps for Bass Guitar... Building Rock Bass Lines the second book will make you work harder as he doesn't use tab in it and it takes a more theoretical approach to things... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4StringHell Posted November 16, 2007 Author Share Posted November 16, 2007 You guys... are awesome!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted November 19, 2007 Share Posted November 19, 2007 A word of caution. You are in the position you are in because you have cut corners - no shame in that. We all did. If you want to start taking your playing to the next level, you really need to take things slowly and systematically. You will need to learn major, minor, melodic minor, diminished and augmented scales in all keys (that's 60 scales). You will then need to learn them all in their relative modes (thats 7x60 scales = 420 scales). You should then play them in thirds, fourths, fifths, sixths, sevenths and octaves - that's 420 x 6 = 2,520. Then learn chord theory - triads, four note chords extensions etc. Then you can start to play.... Ha, ha - that freaked you out, didn't it!! The truth is, they all interelate and each piece of information you learn will make another piece more understandable. You can make astonishingly beautiful music with only a small percentage of this (most music forms don't use melodic minor, diminished or augmented scales at all, for instance). The secret is simply to take your time and learn things properly before you move on. There are hundreds of books out there but a teacher may help you get an handle on stuff if you straggle with the details. My advice is simply take your time and do it properly - you will be a student for life. Don't waste a moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayfan Posted November 19, 2007 Share Posted November 19, 2007 Cheat some more. Find out what songs they all like, and rip the riffs and licks from those and bring them to the practice. Works for me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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