BASS FEEDBACK FORUM/NETWORK

[Beedster]

[quote name='OldGit' post='820978' date='Apr 27 2010, 06:50 PM']The problem with depending on punter reaction as a measure of how well you are doing is that you have no idea why the ones that don't come to see you don't come.[/quote]

Agreed, but I really can't see our music in terms of trying to please the people who don't come to see us. You can't please all of the people

[JTUK]

Yep, depends who is giving it... or whether you want to be bothered.
I am not after a career and quite frankly I've been around the block enough.

I don't get or need my ego stoked ..I'll know and I'll take the most note of the way I think it went.
That isn't to say that I have to give everyone in the band a hard time. I have often noticed in our recents playbacks that a 1st set that I thought was flattish...was pretty damn good playingwise and would have been perfectly acceptable all round, but for the second set taking off through the roof..

We have now done 6 gigs and things are working through out the set. But I think we haven't REALLY hit our stride and I know there are a few more levels we can hit. However, the customers have loved it and been very complementary.
Who do we take notice off..ourselves or the customers...??

What I really want is a few more killer groove numbers..for me, that is. But balancing the set ??? Play populist or play what you want to play...that is quite a difficult thing to pull off.

We just lighten up more and let it happen. even a bad night isn't going to be tragic.

By the same token, if I go and see other bands, if I enjoy it, I'll stay, I've grown out of bitching about this or that...
Mostly now, it is catch-up with muso-mates, anyway.
who cares..? it is a night out?

[OldGit]

[quote name='Beedster' post='821052' date='Apr 27 2010, 07:51 PM']Agreed, but I really can't see our music in terms of trying to please the people who don't come to see us. You can't please all of the people [/quote]

Fair enough ..
See this is why it's imperative to discuss the objectives with the band beforehand

[TimR]

Feedback is always welcome. Whenever someone tells you something that they think you should do, or something that you did that you shouldn't, its from the audience's perspective. The audience are the people you perform to and the people who pay you - remember? The bonus is that the person telling you has hopefully stood in your shoes and knows the problems you are facing.

Unless you video your performance you will NEVER see things from that point of view.

Just because someone says what they think doesn't mean you have to do it but I expect 9 times out of ten you'll give it some thought before dismissing it. If you don't you'll never improve.

I've had long chats with other bands about how I've/they've done things, what has worked, what hasn't.

Essentially its a bit like being on a forum but you actually can see, hear and touch (if you want to) the person you are communicating with. Its rather novel and called 'real life'.

Edited April 27, 2010 by TimR

[Beedster]

[quote name='TimR' post='821326' date='Apr 27 2010, 11:00 PM']If you don't you'll never improve.[/quote]

I completely disagree. Are you seriously suggesting that you need other people's opinions to improve, that you can't improve through your own efforts? I also disagree that musos who provide feedback represent the audience, they usually don't, they represent musos with an opinion, a completely different animal.

I agree with recording both sound and video in rehearsal and live, it's very hard to get a real feel without be able to sit and listen to yourself in the cold light of day

Chris

[OldGit]

There's several levels being discussed here.

Beedster and JTUK (and myself) clearly have the experience to know what they need to do to achieve what they want.
I'd suggest that the bands that the OP, TimR and others are talking about don't have that ability and can benefit from good, helpful, candid feedback.

Audience feedback is useful for everyone as long as the punter understands the band and what they are trying to do. Otherwise they may just get a version of Miles Davis' famous crushing reply to gushing praise: "So what?" .....

[Beedster]

[quote name='OldGit' post='821496' date='Apr 28 2010, 08:40 AM']There's several levels being discussed here.

Beedster and JTUK (and myself) clearly have the experience to know what they need to do to achieve what they want.
I'd suggest that the bands that the OP, TimR and others are talking about don't have that ability and can benefit from good, helpful, candid feedback.

Audience feedback is useful for everyone as long as the punter understands the band and what they are trying to do. Otherwise they may just get a version of Miles Davis' famous crushing reply to gushing praise: "So what?" .....[/quote]

Good summary OG

Think I'm with Miles when it comes to both praise and criticism.

Cheers

Chris

[JTUK]

ha ha..yeah, it is all reletive.

I was recently trying to blag a gig and the owner is quite a high profile muso... Well, very high, if you mentioned his name on here.
Anyway, we had a nice chat and he'd never heard of us.. No problem, we are a new band, but I thought we were worth a punt in his pub,
even though I'd never played there. So, here I was, giving it the sell..or as much as I can do in these situations as I am not a salesman, and he listens politely and says..send me the CD. Well, at this time, we had only down two gigs and getting a CD off that wasn't the easiest thing, so I have to walk away without the gig.
And it dawns on me that he has heard it ALL before and must get it all the time. I am trying to tell him we would be worth it and then you look at his CV and think...nah...don't bother..

Anyway, try reconciling my version of good with his with his track record...it just isn't the same.

Anyway, did the gig a few weeks later and it went down really well. I would think he enjoyed it but wouldn't ask him, he will rebook us if he agrees.

What I did find out from the pub is that one of the customers said to me afterwards...
"oh, we'd never heard of you, but as this is ***** pub we thought we'd give you a chance. He always has good bands"

Now, that is a booking policy, you'd want to be part of as people come to that venue because it is known for good bands.

If I talk to less experienced players or bands, I'll try and say something positive...or not at all.
One or two of my friends who are chasing more of a business angle, I might say, at their level, they shouldn't be doing this or that...but their playing is their playing. After a while it comes down to if you prefer their style to someone elses..the basics are there.
That is my version of constructive opinion... but we are talking about fine lines..IMO.

Edited April 28, 2010 by JTUK

[oldslapper]

I think that "feedback, or a critique" should only be given if asked for.

And I also believe in asking for critique, but only from those who's opinion I trust.

Unsolicited opinions (positive or negative) have no substance if you don't know someone's motives.

That's my opinion, which you didn't ask for, and therefore can dismiss it as a load of ol' crap....I know I would.

[Beedster]

[quote name='JTUK' post='821658' date='Apr 28 2010, 11:02 AM']ha ha..yeah, it is all reletive.

I was recently trying to blag a gig and the owner is quite a high profile muso... Well, very high, if you mentioned his name on here.
Anyway, we had a nice chat and he'd never heard of us.. No problem, we are a new band, but I thought we were worth a punt in his pub,
even though I'd never played there. So, here I was, giving it the sell..or as much as I can do in these situations as I am not a salesman, and he listens politely and says..send me the CD. Well, at this time, we had only down two gigs and getting a CD off that wasn't the easiest thing, so I have to walk away without the gig.
And it dawns on me that he has heard it ALL before and must get it all the time. I am trying to tell him we would be worth it and then you look at his CV and think...nah...don't bother..

Anyway, try reconciling my version of good with his with his track record...it just isn't the same.

Anyway, did the gig a few weeks later and it went down really well. I would think he enjoyed it but wouldn't ask him, he will rebook us if he agrees.

What I did find out from the pub is that one of the customers said to me afterwards...
"oh, we'd never heard of you, but as this is ***** pub we thought we'd give you a chance. He always has good bands"

Now, that is a booking policy, you'd want to be part of as people come to that venue because it is known for good bands.

If I talk to less experienced players or bands, I'll try and say something positive...or not at all.
One or two of my friends who are chasing more of a business angle, I might say, at their level, they shouldn't be doing this or that...but their playing is their playing. After a while it comes down to if you prefer their style to someone elses..the basics are there.
That is my version of constructive opinion... but we are talking about fine lines..IMO.[/quote]

Give me a clue as to the location of the pub in question

[JTUK]

[quote name='Beedster' post='821678' date='Apr 28 2010, 11:24 AM']Give me a clue as to the location of the pub in question [/quote]


Fav creek

or via PM.

Edited April 28, 2010 by JTUK

[Beedster]

[quote name='JTUK' post='821686' date='Apr 28 2010, 11:30 AM']Fav creek [/quote]

Ah yes, let me know next time you're playing there, I'll come and give you some feedback

Hope you're above average?

C

[JTUK]

[quote name='Beedster' post='821691' date='Apr 28 2010, 11:33 AM']Ah yes, let me know next time you're playing there, I'll come and give you some feedback

Hope you're above average?

C[/quote]




We will play the usual pub toilet set but hopefully get away from this with a few numbers... but, I'd say we would be above average, for sure...
I know that sounds a bit strong..but, well, you know.

I'd say places like that would be ripe for a few decent originals but maybe a bit too early for us to put them in.

[JTUK]

As far as I know...he has yet to rebook us...so maybe he thought we were crap...

We'll do the hop festival, I'd have thought....not that that means anything, just a nice day out.

[Beedster]

[quote name='JTUK' post='821699' date='Apr 28 2010, 11:42 AM']I'd say we would be above average, for sure...[/quote]

I hope you know I wasn't serious there?

[quote name='JTUK' post='821702' date='Apr 28 2010, 11:45 AM']We'll do the hop festival, I'd have thought....not that that means anything, just a nice day out.[/quote]

I'll be in the crowd with several beers cheering you on. Not a single word of feedback will be uttered, even if asked for

[TimR]

With respect, no one knows everything, music and performing are life long learning processes. Stop learning and you will stagnate. There's always someone who has seen something different or learned something you don't know. Asking for advice is not a weakness.

Learning by making your own mistakes is a long road. You can spend a long time repeating mistakes thinking you doing OK before someone points them out. I'm sure we've all been in bands; when your audience say it's good but never come to your shows; or you play cracking tunes that everyone in the band loves playing, but no one gets up and dances to; or one mate tells you something when they're drunk which leads you to fire someone because you had got used to how much their playing sucked.

The OP suggested criticism from someone invited to criticise. For a long time I used to go and see bands and think "The drummer was bad because..." or "The singer was bad because...". Now when I go to see a band I watch the audience reaction and try to work out what it is that the band are doing right/wrong to get that reaction. Criticism and advice is always good because it's free and you don't have to take it. Sometimes your band-mates will only listen to a third party and not the bass player/band leader who is always going on about the same old things.

As a musician I am constantly amazed at the way bands with poor quality musicianship can still get amazing reactions from the audience and that's disappointing when we spend so much time practicing and putting in the finest details to the music. That's entertainment!

[Beedster]

[quote name='TimR' post='821911' date='Apr 28 2010, 02:06 PM']As a musician I am constantly amazed at the way bands with poor quality musicianship can still get amazing reactions from the audience and that's disappointing when we spend so much time practicing and putting in the finest details to the music. That's entertainment![/quote]

Exactly. The case for the defence rests

[JTUK]

[quote name='Beedster' post='821809' date='Apr 28 2010, 01:02 PM']I hope you know I wasn't serious there?



I'll be in the crowd with several beers cheering you on. Not a single word of feedback will be uttered, even if asked for [/quote]


Well, we can only do what we can do...and if it isn't good enough, well we can always talk bass shop
Talking of which, the landlord of above says he is into Mustangs these days as all his gigs are gtr/bass doublers..
He does like a nice Fender though, I am sure

It is a bit strange for me to have to chase gigs..I used to just turn up and leave that to others, so I am not sure who is out there doing
a good set.

Got any good tips for bands to see or venues..? I am told Fat River and Tim Hain are worth seeing so hopefully our paths will cross
this summer

[Beedster]

[quote name='Beedster' post='820683' date='Apr 27 2010, 02:39 PM']I also have two good mates who are excellent musicians and they also help out when asked. Critically none of them are bass players, who I often find way too bass-centric to offer any real help in a band situation. Critically also, they rarely say anything, I have to really push them, and even then they say little. Which is why we ask them.[/quote]

[quote name='JTUK' post='822293' date='Apr 28 2010, 06:34 PM']I am told Fat River and Tim Hain are worth seeing[/quote]

Funnily enough, the two posts above are linked! Small world eh?

Yes, FRB are a great band, we recorded at their bassist's studio, and I regularly get into long drinking/jam sessions with a few of the others! I'll keep you posted of any local gigs.

PM me details of your band/gigs and we'll hook up at some stage

Cheers

Chris

[JTUK]

I used to play with Clarky years ago....great harp player always, and he was at our Anchor gig.
Good to catch up with him, so sure, we should meet up.

May isn't the most populated as yet...but I'll keep you posted when we are over your way...

I'll drop you a PM...

[OldGit]

[quote name='JTUK' post='821658' date='Apr 28 2010, 11:02 AM']Now, that is a booking policy you'd want to be part of, as people come to that venue because it is known for good bands.[/quote]

Yup and that happens all over. As it should. Usually its the venues everyone wants to play as well. Thus they have blaggers in all teh time so they can pick and choose and the punters trust their judgement.
That's why some bands can't get a gig even when they have all the stuff, the CD etc, because thy just are not right for the venue. or not right for the available date.

Of course now you've had a gig there you can use that as collateral when blagging gigs in other similar places. "oh if they passed the criteria applied by @@@@@ then they will work here a well"...

[OldGit]

[quote name='Beedster' post='821927' date='Apr 28 2010, 02:14 PM']Exactly. The case for the defence rests [/quote]


+1
As I may have mentioned in other threads about this sort of thing , if you don't entertain people (whatever passes for that in your genre) then it really doesn't matter how well you actually play. Or to put it the other way even a group of very average players can be really entertaining.

[cammymaxwellbass]

Interesting thoughts everyone, thanks for taking the time.
Seems like we've gone off on a bit of a tangent - become more of a discussion on the pros and cons of feedback....
I think my idea was that anyone who felt that some critique would be helpful could maybe get that by using this forum, maybe one or two have... Ideally it would all be very friendly, after all we're all coming from the same place (next to the drum kit usually!). So even if someone turns up and says "decent but keep practicing" or "that was simply awesome" then at least you have a bass player who's there to see you giving an honest but [i]constructive[/i] comment or two. This isn't about destroying confidence or getting one-up on each other. When I was studying I always wished that my bass teacher would come and check out a gig so he could tell me about how to be a better rhythm section player rather than a solo player.
Personally its been a while since anyone's given me a good hauling over the coals - if anyone fancies a free pint or two on a Friday in Glasgow the offers still there. I'd appreciate it even though others might not, each to their own.
Cheers everyone, hope someone out there's found this useful.
Cammy

[OldGit]

[quote name='cammymaxwellbass' post='822623' date='Apr 29 2010, 02:27 AM']Interesting thoughts everyone, thanks for taking the time.
Seems like we've gone off on a bit of a tangent - become more of a discussion on the pros and cons of feedback....
I think my idea was that anyone who felt that some critique would be helpful could maybe get that by using this forum, maybe one or two have... Ideally it would all be very friendly, after all we're all coming from the same place (next to the drum kit usually!). So even if someone turns up and says "decent but keep practicing" or "that was simply awesome" then at least you have a bass player who's there to see you giving an honest but [i]constructive[/i] comment or two. This isn't about destroying confidence or getting one-up on each other. When I was studying I always wished that my bass teacher would come and check out a gig so he could tell me about how to be a better rhythm section player rather than a solo player.
Personally its been a while since anyone's given me a good hauling over the coals - if anyone fancies a free pint or two on a Friday in Glasgow the offers still there. I'd appreciate it even though others might not, each to their own.
Cheers everyone, hope someone out there's found this useful.
Cammy[/quote]


It's a good idea Cammy, and stimulated discussion, even if it was at a tangent..
It's also a way to get more people to your gigs

Your point about getting your tutor to asses your group playing raises another interesting tangent.
The guitarist in the mixed abled/disabled funk band I play sax in now and then is a guitar tutor by profession. He makes a decent living, pays the mortgage etc...
However this is the first band he's ever played in and he's [i]terrible[/i] on stage. He has no idea about presence, dynamics (constantly too quiet!), moving, audience contact etc etc etc.
I guess your guy may not feel he can do the band analysis thing either, or maybe you should offer him the hourly rate for his tuition for the gig ....

[JTUK]

[quote name='OldGit' post='822581' date='Apr 28 2010, 11:47 PM']Yup and that happens all over. As it should. Usually its the venues everyone wants to play as well. Thus they have blaggers in all teh time so they can pick and choose and the punters trust their judgement.
That's why some bands can't get a gig even when they have all the stuff, the CD etc, because thy just are not right for the venue. or not right for the available date.

Of course now you've had a gig there you can use that as collateral when blagging gigs in other similar places. "oh if they passed the criteria applied by @@@@@ then they will work here a well"...[/quote]

The funny thing is we got a date there two weeks later by a few locals who had seen us so bollux to the CD and website thing..
The CD was taken from our very first gig so not something I'd really push...but it is a live performance indication snapshot of that time.
Depending how much a website costs in time and money... it may well be arguable how useful it is once you are out playing.
At least it gives me a diary to work from

Yes, sorry for the tangent and maybe my more negative slant.