now for something completley different

[hagguy]

after looking at musicman stuff for a while, ive started
looking at rickenbaker type basses. can't afford the real
thing yet and not sure they are worth the price tag.
i've seen a couple copies ibanez looks good and a tokai
which is brand new but not sure of theyre quality. if anyone
could point me in the direction of a good quality copy that is
being made currently, would be apprieciated. i found an ibanez
copy from the 70's for £750 worth it?. i've not came accross a bad ibby yet
so that would be the main contender, but if there is other decent ones would like
to have a look. thanks in advance

[Dave Vader]

I have the Tokai Rickenfaker, and unless you're prepared to spend a lot of time and money on set-up and replacement parts, don't bother. It cost me about £500 new, and then I had to spend a good 350 on pickups and bridge, plus routing and messing about.
Ibbys are really good though, friend of mine has one.
Pickups in the Tokai are just wrong, really wrong.

[spongebob]

If your looking at spending £750 on a copy, I'd wait a few months, try and save an extra few hundred, and get the real thing....there really is nothing like a genuine Ric (no bias, I promise......)

I sold a Fireglow 4003 last Summer for £1100. Prices are starting to level out a bit now (I bought a 2010 Mapleglow a while back for £1649).

When the weather gets hotter, Ric prices seem to drop a bit, especially on e-bay......sounds strange, but I've really noticed this over the last couple of years.

About 18 months back, I saw a mint 4001 Fireglow fail to reach a bid at £800.

Keep watching, they do crop up. Please buy them, so it might stop me grabbing another I can't afford!

[bigsmokebass]

+1 to spongebob

I've tried comparing the tokai 'rockinbetter' with a jetglo Ricki' and theres no comparison if you want the sound and feel of a real one.

[Bassassin]

No way is £750 reasonable for a 35-year old JapCrap copy. No way. The Ibanez copies were about the least accurate 4001 clones from that era, and since at least 9 out of 10 Jap Rick copies now have fake Rickenbacker logos, you can usually be pretty confident that the "Ibanez" Rickenfaker some gyppo's trying to fleece you for is nothing of the kind.

None of the modern copies are particularly accurate - most tellingly none of them even try to copy the narrow, near-parallel shape of Rick necks - so they will neither play nor sound like the real thing. That said, the [url="http://www.expressmusicstore.co.uk/products.asp?code=80606"]Anniversary-branded example[/url] looks fairly realistic, doesn't cost £500, and a few BCers have had them & been quite impressed. Ask Hooky6stringbass - he's had one of these and various other Fakers, old & new.

Some of the Japanese copies were frighteningly accurate, and according to reviewers at the time, better-made than the real thing. I currently have 3 vintage MIJ copies - all of mine have been projects to a greater or lesser extent & I didn't pay much for any of them. The problem with 70s ones is that you can't really pick & choose - they come up on Ebay infrequently, usually with dodgy badges, so if you don't know your stuff it will be hard to tell what you're getting - a plywood Korean Hondo looks pretty much the same as the near-perfect Matsumoku clone that's lived as a real Rickenbacker since 1979. And the scarcity of these things means there's not much difference in price.

Anyway, there's a Rickenfaker sticky thread in the Ebay subforum, and keep watching Basses For Sale - quite a few members here own them, meaning they come up for sale with reasonable regularity.

And keep your eye on Gumtree, go to your local car boot, & check out any local music shops that still do second-hand - they do come up.

Jon.

[bassmachine2112]

you might be lucky n turn up a greco but nothing is close to the real deal n they don,t smell right either.
Have a smell of a ricky where the bridge pup is no kiddin mine still smells and it,s 11 years old.It doesn,t get more spinal tap than that.

[Bassassin]

[quote name='bassmachine2112' post='822108' date='Apr 28 2010, 04:29 PM']you might be lucky n turn up a greco[/quote]

Grecos were made by Fujigen & Matsumoku (they sold both versions side-by-side) and was/is a Japanese home-market brand, never officially exported to the West - so you'd be bloody lucky. Grecos are identical to any other brand from the same factories - don't get fooled into paying for a brand name - this isn't a Fender we're talking about!

J.

[hagguy]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='821972' date='Apr 28 2010, 02:47 PM']No way is £750 reasonable for a 35-year old JapCrap copy. No way. The Ibanez copies were about the least accurate 4001 clones from that era, and since at least 9 out of 10 Jap Rick copies now have fake Rickenbacker logos, you can usually be pretty confident that the "Ibanez" Rickenfaker some gyppo's trying to fleece you for is nothing of the kind.

None of the modern copies are particularly accurate - most tellingly none of them even try to copy the narrow, near-parallel shape of Rick necks - so they will neither play nor sound like the real thing. That said, the [url="http://www.expressmusicstore.co.uk/products.asp?code=80606"]Anniversary-branded example[/url] looks fairly realistic, doesn't cost £500, and a few BCers have had them & been quite impressed. Ask Hooky6stringbass - he's had one of these and various other Fakers, old & new.

Some of the Japanese copies were frighteningly accurate, and according to reviewers at the time, better-made than the real thing. I currently have 3 vintage MIJ copies - all of mine have been projects to a greater or lesser extent & I didn't pay much for any of them. The problem with 70s ones is that you can't really pick & choose - they come up on Ebay infrequently, usually with dodgy badges, so if you don't know your stuff it will be hard to tell what you're getting - a plywood Korean Hondo looks pretty much the same as the near-perfect Matsumoku clone that's lived as a real Rickenbacker since 1979. And the scarcity of these things means there's not much difference in price.

Anyway, there's a Rickenfaker sticky thread in the Ebay subforum, and keep watching Basses For Sale - quite a few members here own them, meaning they come up for sale with reasonable regularity.

And keep your eye on Gumtree, go to your local car boot, & check out any local music shops that still do second-hand - they do come up.

Jon.[/quote]


cheers jon good info there, the anniversary one looks ok, but if i'm gonna splash
out i think maybe the real deal would be a better option, i'll keep my eye on s/hand stuff
and the sticky thread might get lucky

cheers ian

[Bassassin]

[quote name='hagguy' post='822279' date='Apr 28 2010, 06:21 PM']cheers jon good info there, the anniversary one looks ok, but if i'm gonna splash
out i think maybe the real deal would be a better option, i'll keep my eye on s/hand stuff
and the sticky thread might get lucky

cheers ian[/quote]
Good plan - if you were considering up to £750 on a Faker then it's not unrealistic to save a few quid more & get a real one - there are still occasional bargains to be had, especially if you'd consider importing.

Personally I think Rick copies are a whole other thing to real ones, and not really a substitute. I love 'em both!

J.

[hagguy]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='822453' date='Apr 28 2010, 09:20 PM']Good plan - if you were considering up to £750 on a Faker then it's not unrealistic to save a few quid more & get a real one - there are still occasional bargains to be had, especially if you'd consider importing.

Personally I think Rick copies are a whole other thing to real ones, and not really a substitute. I love 'em both!

J.[/quote]


tbh the ibanez i seen on preloved appealed to me because the guy was open to offers and trades, plus i'm a big ibanez fan, think they are great build quality.
saying that i think the price is hopeful at best. i'd heard that rick's have a few issues with quality which put me off in the past, but they look awesome and i'm sure
if i bide my time i'll get hold of a good quality rick on here, think i'll take a trip into glasgow check out a few out make sure it's not just gas.

just out of interest which one would you recommend? 4001,4003 not sure what the differences are. which copies really stand up quality wise? prefer an owners POV
heard the truss rods are a nitemare, is that a particular model? thanks in advance.

cheer ian

[Bassassin]

The main differences between the Rick 4001 & 4003 are the truss rods - older 4001s have a pretty primitive & fairly delicate system of adjustment, and breakages (neck cracking & fretboard delamination, mostly) occur when you try & adjust them like normal rods. The design harks back to the late 50s/early 60s when bass strings were typically low-tension flats, and a lot of Rick fans would recommend that you don't use rounds on a 4001.

4003s have more robust neck construction and conventional truss rods, specifically to address this problem, and can be used with any type of strings - it was really just a replacement for the 4001 with a beefed-up neck.

Ibanez Fakers (or more specifically, Fujigen ones, because that was the factory which made 'em) will typically sell for £500-ish on Ebay - imo £750 goes beyond wishful, right into the realms of fantasy! Ibbys come in neck-through & bolt-on varieties (as do most JapCrap copies) and there were a few different versions in the 6 or 7 years they were made. I said in an earlier post that they were the least accurate Fakers, and this is true of the early (and most common) versions, but in a really good way:

[attachment=48534:marek2.jpg]

I think these were probably the earliest Japanese 4001 copies - the checked binding & full-width sparkly inlays are pre '73 design features on real Ricks, and the Gibson-type pickups suggest a parts-box approach. The same bass was sold in the US branded as Electra, and as Greco in Japan, and like most 70s JapCrap, probably under a bunch of other names too. The design of these was updated around 1975/6 to have more accurate hardware & standard inlays, but they kept the checked binding.

The most accurate 4001 copy was Matsumoku's neck-through offering, and you need to be a real Rick anorak to tell the difference:

[attachment=48537:matsubody.jpg]

The dark fretboard, pearly inlays & knob position dots are the only clues visible in this pic. These are incredibly thin & light, have two truss rods, stereo outs, and even have better-than-the-real-thing copies of the "wavy" Grover tuners used on early 70s 4001s. The one in the picture had been badged as a Rick (with a real 70s plexi trc) and masquerading as the real thing in Florida for a few decades before it came my way. These were commonly sold as Univox & Electra (again!) in the US, over here they'd be Aria, Aria Pro II, Arbiter & Kimbara, amongst others. Both these & the Ibby/Fujigen were sold as Greco, they turn up very occasionally at silly import prices.

All the neck-through copies are prone to a design flaw very accurately copied from the original. The pickup position at the very end of the neck, coupled with a thin body, means the neck/body junction is a natural weak point, and years of string tension can basically lead to warping at this point - which results in an unadjustably high action. Both of the basses I've shown pics of have this problem, and I've seen it on real Ricks too. This certainly doesn't happen on all of them, but is a common enough issue. It's probably worth mentioning that the bolt-neck Fakers don't suffer from this, it's always possible to shim the necks on these.

The Jap copies don't have the same truss problems as real 4001s, being constructed with conventional truss rods, and assembled with modern adhesives.

J.

[Musky]

[quote name='hagguy' post='822578' date='Apr 28 2010, 11:43 PM']tbh the ibanez i seen on preloved appealed to me because the guy was open to offers and trades, plus i'm a big ibanez fan, think they are great build quality.
saying that i think the price is hopeful at best. i'd heard that rick's have a few issues with quality which put me off in the past, but they look awesome and i'm sure
if i bide my time i'll get hold of a good quality rick on here, think i'll take a trip into glasgow check out a few out make sure it's not just gas.

just out of interest which one would you recommend? 4001,4003 not sure what the differences are. which copies really stand up quality wise? prefer an owners POV
heard the truss rods are a nitemare, is that a particular model? thanks in advance.

cheer ian[/quote]

Wow. I imagined the £750 price would be in a shop. The guy is clearly a chancer asking that kind of money for a private sale.

If you'd like to know the Fuji Gen Gakki built basses (like the ones branded Ibanez) try typing 'FujiGen' into the search box at the bottom of the rickenfaker thread. You might like to try the same with 'Matsumoku' or just 'Mat' for another respected manufacturer. It's worth bearing in mind though that some of the 'fakers were so accurate they were afflicted with some of the same problems that Ricks were.

If you want to check out the differences between the 4001 and 4003 take a read of the info on rickresource.com. Unfortunately I can't link direct to it, so you'll have to follow the links - registration page>Articles>bass models. Ultimately though there are less differences between a 4001 and a 4003 than there can be between the same model from different eras! There's also a great series of threads on the forum called 'Anatomy of a Rickenbacker' if you really want to get into the details.

Edit: Yeah, what Jon said!

Edited April 29, 2010 by Musky

[Bassassin]

Re: Rickresource - what Musky said! Best place in the world for finding out anything you want to know about Rickenbackers. Sign up for the forum - that's probably the best place to buy one.

J.

[hagguy]

thanks for all the advice well armed t get a good rick now


cheers ian

[absolutpepper]

[quote name='hagguy' post='822620' date='Apr 29 2010, 01:37 AM']thanks for all the advice well armed t get a good rick now


cheers ian[/quote]

FWIW Ric's are most definetly worth the prices they command. Whether you get on with one or not is another issue entirely. In general there are fewer complaints about Ric quality in comparison to other builders such as Gibson, Fender and MM and this is one of the reasons why the brand has become synonymous with its high standards of production.

A lot of the complaints levelled at them are to do with the unforgivingly large baseball bat type neck and for the bound body which can be a little uncomfortable...for me its part of the quirks of the instrument and the pro's far outweigh the con's.

Keep an eye on the second hand market, you would be able to pick up at 4003 for not much more than a grand. Its worth saving the extra.

[jonsmith]

They don't all have baseball bat type necks by the way. Some - especially the older ones - have very slim necks. Depends when they were made and there was a spell a few years ago when both slim and fat necks were coming out of the factory.

Edited April 29, 2010 by jonsmith

[Soloshchenko]

[quote name='hagguy' post='821364' date='Apr 27 2010, 11:49 PM']after looking at musicman stuff for a while, ive started
looking at rickenbaker type basses. can't afford the real
thing yet and not sure they are worth the price tag.
i've seen a couple copies ibanez looks good and a tokai
which is brand new but not sure of theyre quality. if anyone
could point me in the direction of a good quality copy that is
being made currently, would be apprieciated. i found an ibanez
copy from the 70's for £750 worth it?. i've not came accross a bad ibby yet
so that would be the main contender, but if there is other decent ones would like
to have a look. thanks in advance [/quote]

CMI ones are nice. Heres one I picked up for £400 on here. Sounds really genuine.

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=82308&hl=cmi"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=82308&hl=cmi[/url]

I agree though, with £750 you should just wait and get the real thing.

[Bassassin]

[quote name='Soloshchenko' post='823467' date='Apr 29 2010, 10:00 PM']CMI ones are nice. Heres one I picked up for £400 on here. Sounds really genuine.

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=82308&hl=cmi"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=82308&hl=cmi[/url]

I agree though, with £750 you should just wait and get the real thing.[/quote]
The trouble with brands like CMI is that they were importers, not manufacturers. That goes for about 95% of the common 70s brands in the UK. CMI (which was Jim Marshall's guitar sub-brand, Cleartone Musical Instruments) sourced their basses from presumably whoever was doing the best deal at the time, hence their Rick copies aren't all from the same factory.

What's good about JapCrap Rick copies is that in my experience, none of them were [i]actual[/i] crap. All the Jap factories were capable of manufacturing to a very high standard but would build to budget too - Rick copies always tended to be at the higher end of the range.

J.