Issues with my Hartke LH500 head and Ashdown MAG 410 cab

[jakhotta]

Hi everyone,

I'm fairly new to bass playing and I'm having real problems achieving a high treble output from bass rigs without blowing speakers.
So far I've blown a Carlsbro Bassline 120 combo (the amp was basically cooked and speaker coil wrecked) and now it seems I've knocked out a couple of speaker coils in my Ashdown MAG deep 410 cab after running from a Hartke LH500 on full volume. I was using no effects on the latter, just straight output from my Westone Quantum bass.
I can't understand why this has happened as the amp is rated at 450 watts (8 ohms) and the head is underpowered at 350 watts (8 ohms). I've been aiming for high treble/mids similar to the distorted Ramones first album sound but my gear can't seem to take it, do people recommend I invest in a new cab(s), upgrade the head or both?
Its just me, a drummer and a vocalist in our band so I need something reliable and very loud.

Any advice other than buy a guitar is appreciated!

Cheers,
Jak

Edited May 5, 2010 by jakhotta

[Mr. Foxen]

You've discovered how meaningless speaker watt ratings are. If you are turning up to full volume on a 500w head, you haven't got enough cabs. Cabs determine your volume. If you want lots of mids, you probably want to stand further from your cab. Would guess you have a 4x10 on the floor and are stood right next to it. Highs and mids are quite directional, so mostly probably shooting past your legs if you don't have the speakers facing you.

If you have actually broken cabs by turning up, you probably should reassess what you are doing. There should be plenty of bad sound type warning before actual breakage.

A pair of 4x10s so one is higher toward your ears is probably better for you (some will say pair of 2x10s on sides, but that isn't going to suit your style methinks). Then cut bass, that's the bit that breaks speakers, eq down the bass first, then crank you mids and highs, then fiddle with your volume, probably use bridge pickup also. Also, pick close to the bridge, have a suspicion you are wanging the strings very hard over the mid pickup sort of area so the strings move loads, and the speaker does likewise. Heavy strings, pick close to the bridge, cut bass.

The head is likely totally fine.

Edit: New strings. Bet that is your trouble with treble.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Mr. Foxen

[Raslee]

Maybe worth trying a compressor also.

[Conan]

I've got two of those same cabs, and they seem to be able to handle plenty of power. Assuming you bought yours new? If you did, and the speakers have blown with only 350w going through them then you may have grounds to return it. If you bought it used though, maybe the question is what did the previous owner do with it?!

As others have said, there seems to be a number of potential issues here...

[jakhotta]

Thanks for the responses guys, the signal was distorting long before the speakers blew but I assumed that with the head being underpowered it would be ok. You're right about me standing in front of the rig too, it did seem louder further back!

The cab was 2nd hand too so that could well be the reason, playing wise I've only been using the bridge pick-up with the tone up full to get that high treble sound but new strings is definitely an option. I like the idea of a second 4x10, it's clear that I've only been getting half the potential of the amp up to now but as you know travel is more difficult with two as well as financial reasons.

Assuming I can get the Ashdown cab fixed what do people think about the addition of a 15" cab? I have the old Carlsbro combo (about 2 third's the size of the Ashdown) that I could drop a new Celestion TRUVOX 1530 (15") bass speaker into for about £80.00 to make a second cab but would it be worth it? Also, not to sound stupid but what's the benefit of using a compressor?

Cheers again,

Jak

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='jakhotta' post='829361' date='May 6 2010, 09:50 AM']Thanks for the responses guys, the signal was distorting long before the speakers blew but I assumed that with the head being underpowered it would be ok. You're right about me standing in front of the rig too, it did seem louder further back!

The cab was 2nd hand too so that could well be the reason, playing wise I've only been using the bridge pick-up with the tone up full to get that high treble sound but new strings is definitely an option. I like the idea of a second 4x10, it's clear that I've only been getting half the potential of the amp up to now but as you know travel is more difficult with two as well as financial reasons.

Assuming I can get the Ashdown cab fixed what do people think about the addition of a 15" cab? I have the old Carlsbro combo (about 2 third's the size of the Ashdown) that I could drop a new Celestion TRUVOX 1530 (15") bass speaker into for about £80.00 to make a second cab but would it be worth it? Also, not to sound stupid but what's the benefit of using a compressor?

Cheers again,

Jak[/quote]

Not worth bodging another cab and speaker, probably want to stop thinking about 'watts' altogether, the are pretty much only for bottom end and breaking things. Maybe put your 4x10 on top of the combo so it is higher will help the sound. Using another, different, speaker will just mean its harder to hear the distortion warning you that it is going to break.

As soon as one speaker goes, the rest are going to get trouble as the cab tuning goes, so they are free to move further with less power (and produce less sound), as the dead speaker becomes a passive radiator and counters the cushioning effect of the air in the cab.

[51m0n]

[quote name='jakhotta' post='829141' date='May 5 2010, 11:21 PM']Hi everyone,

I'm fairly new to bass playing and I'm having real problems achieving a high treble output from bass rigs without blowing speakers.
So far I've blown a Carlsbro Bassline 120 combo (the amp was basically cooked and speaker coil wrecked) and now it seems I've knocked out a couple of speaker coils in my Ashdown MAG deep 410 cab after running from a [b]Hartke LH500 on full volume[/b]. I was [b]using no effects[/b] on the latter, just straight output from my Westone Quantum bass.
I can't understand why this has happened as the amp is rated at 450 watts (8 ohms) and the head is underpowered at 350 watts (8 ohms). I've been aiming for [b]high treble/mids similar to the distorted Ramones first album sound[/b] but my gear can't seem to take it, do people recommend I invest in a new cab(s), upgrade the head or both?
Its just me, a drummer and a vocalist in our band so I need something reliable and very loud.

Any advice other than buy a guitar is appreciated!

Cheers,
Jak[/quote]


All the clues are in your post.

Firstly the LH500 is a clean sounding amp, yes it has a tube in it, but the preamp design is such that it doesnt do overdriven grind. It isnt supposed to, its ultraclean.

Second you are running a massively grunty head at full chat - this is almost never a good idea, if it aint loud enough at 3 O'clock you need more cabs and maybe more amps to drive them (depending on impedance ratings etc etc).

So we can assume from this that you were getting a dirty overdriven sound out of your cab by pushing it way outside its perfromance limits, and that is the distortion you were hearing, the sound of your cab dieing horribly, not the overdrive of a big tube lead sled overdriving at all. For refernce that sound you heard is the sound of a cab calling out in distress begging you to put less power into it!

So what to do....

Repair the cab before you run it again. Invest in a good overdrive (Sansamp VT would probably be just the ticket for you), which will enable you to get that sound without turning the amp up so loud that the cab is a goner.

Get new strings on the bass!

Use a pick.

Get the cab pointing at your head!!

Learn to distinguish the death throes of a cab from a nicely overdriving amp or fx unit!!!!!!

[Conan]

[quote name='jakhotta' post='829361' date='May 6 2010, 09:50 AM']Also, not to sound stupid but what's the benefit of using a compressor?[/quote]

A compressor will basically "smooth out" your volume levels by making the quiet sounds louder and the loud sounds quieter. You will then have less peaks, and so feed a more consistent signal to your speakers - causing less damage! Some amps have them fitted as standard, others have a limiter - which is like half a compressor, it brings down the volume of loud notes but does nothing to the quiet ones.

They both reduce the dynamic range.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Conan

[johnnylager]

[quote name='Conan' post='829392' date='May 6 2010, 10:34 AM']...others have a limiter - which is like half a compressor, it brings down the volume of loud notes but does nothing to the quiet ones...[/quote]

As does the LH-500.

[Conan]

If money were no object (as if!) I would recommend that you start all over again with a new rig, chosen based on what you want from it! If that's not achieveable, then stick with the LH500 (they are very well regarded at the price) but add a distortion unit. You may also find that it is cheaper to buy another cab rather than repair your existing one. Second-hand 4x10s from Ashdown, Peavey, Trace Elliot, etc can go for as little as £80-100 on here or ebay.

If you stick with one cab, maybe look for a 4 ohm one to get more output from your amp (but god knows why you would need it in a three piece band!). Stand it on top of something so that you can hear your playing better and look at your EQ settings. If you want a growly-toppy sound, you should be able to roll off the bass end which will make you sound louder!

Lots of good advice above^^^

Edited May 6, 2010 by Conan

[51m0n]

[quote name='Conan' post='829392' date='May 6 2010, 10:34 AM']A compressor will basically "smooth out" your volume levels by making the quiet sounds louder and the loud sounds quieter. You will then have less peaks, and so feed a more consistent signal to your speakers - causing less damage! Some amps have them fitted as standard, [b]others have a limiter - which is like half a compressor, it brings down the volume of loud notes but does nothing to the quiet ones[/b].

They both reduce the dynamic range.[/quote]


Errr thats a very very peculiar description of a limiter.....

A limiter is a compressor with a very high threshold (it only gets activated by the loudest bits of signal), and a very (almost infinite) ratio, (it as near as possible prevents the signal getting any louder than the threshold).

If you push signal into a limiter it will effectively make the quieter sounds louder, although they are actually unaffected by the limiter, the downside is the loud notes are dynamically squashed by the limiter and this sounds very obvious, which may be the desired effect or not.

A compressor is just a much more subtle effect, the ratio is far less extreme, however it can have the threshold set lower so it effects more of the signal.

The end results can sound very similar dependant on all sorts of stuff.

The important point I'm trying to make is that a limiter really is a compressor with a particular and extreme setup, designed to do a certain job.

IME the limiter on the LH500, although effective is very obvious and not particularly great sounding.

[Conan]

[quote name='51m0n' post='829416' date='May 6 2010, 11:08 AM']Errr thats a very very peculiar description of a limiter.....[/quote]

Fair enough! I was just trying to give the OP [i]some[/i] info until someone with much greater technical knowledge than myself came along...

I am just a bear of very little brain, but I do try to help

[51m0n]

[quote name='Conan' post='829425' date='May 6 2010, 11:13 AM']Fair enough! I was just trying to give the OP [i]some[/i] info until someone with much greater technical knowledge than myself came along...

I am just a bear of very little brain, but I do try to help [/quote]

No probs!

A lot of people get really mixed up by the limiter/compressor thing.

I do get mixed up by chord substitutions and, well, too much harmony generally. Horses for course innit!

[jakhotta]

Nice one for all the responses, there's loads of great advice here so I've printed this thread off as reference.

It seems there are a fair few options to choose from but you're right about me needing to learn about my gear, I should of done more homework on what I was buying into but you have to start somewhere I guess!

I have one last question to ask, the LH500 has two cabinet outputs on the back both with 8 ohm stickers next to them. I know wattage is more or less irrelevant but am I really getting 350watts of power at 8ohms from each output or is it effectively halved to 175 watts? Same goes for the supposed 500 watts power for a 4 ohm cab, is that halved across the two outputs or do you get 500w on each channel? For example if I were to get a 4ohm cab would it need to be over 500 watts or over 250 watts to be used safely?
I hope I've been clear about what I mean, just the volume didn't seem that loud on the single 8 ohm 4x10 hence playing it full power so though it might of just been clever marketing by Hartke to make the head seem more powerful.

Cheers all,
Jak

[Conan]

Two 8 ohm cabs will give you a total impedance of 4 ohms! (Product divided by sum!). That will allow the amp to give it's full power - supposedly 500watts. One 8 ohm cab will reduce the power and probably the volume (although one very sensitive cab may give more volume than two not-very-sensitive ones!).

If you use only one 4 ohm cab, then it will draw the full output from the amp, and will therefore need to be rated at 500 watts plus...

Your one MAG 410 should have (theoretically) been able to cope with the 350w put into it by the amp. The fact that it couldn't means one of three things... The amp is conservatively rated, the cab is over-rated, or the cab was already damaged. My money is on the third one!

The LH500 is widely regarded as a very good amp. In fact I would really like to replace my Ampeg with one! But if you want an overdriven sound you will need a pedal/box of some description...

[51m0n]

+1 to Conan

I would add that if you push a cab with an amp at maximum you greatly increase the risk of something going pop.

With an LH500 you really shouldnt need to drive it to full. At my 40th birthday Plux (my son) had his LH500 running at 3 O'clock with an extremely gentle person playing. It was running into his Berg HT210 & HT115 and easily kept up with a 4K PA. Sounded massive, and brilliantly filled the room with pure beautiful tone. No damage done. The only reason it was up so loud was the unbelievably delicate nature of the players right hand technique, I very much doubt you are anywhere near as delicate since you are emulating a distorted Ramones tone.

[jakhotta]

Ok think I'm getting it but what wattage 8ohm cabs should I be looking for to use with this head if I want to use a pair of cabs? I understand that a single 4 ohm cab receives the full 500w output but I got the MAG 410 on the understanding I could always add another one later on.

If the heads output doubles to 500 watts with two 8ohm cabs then surely a pair of ashdown MAG 410 (450w max.) will get damaged? Or does the cab's max wattage rating double when you halve the impedance too?

Apologies for the confusion and cheers for the answers-
Jak

p.s. Too-right about delicate playing, I'm doing my best to emulate Dee Dee Ramones rapid downstrokes!

Edited May 6, 2010 by jakhotta

[51m0n]

[quote name='jakhotta' post='830124' date='May 6 2010, 10:24 PM']Ok think I'm getting it but what wattage 8ohm cabs should I be looking for to use with this head if I want to use a pair of cabs? I understand that a single 4 ohm cab receives the full 500w output but I got the MAG 410 on the understanding I could always add another one later on.

If the heads output doubles to 500 watts with two 8ohm cabs then surely a pair of ashdown MAG 410 (450w max.) will get damaged? Or does the cab's max wattage rating double when you halve the impedance too?

Apologies for the confusion and cheers for the answers-
Jak

p.s. Too-right about delicate playing, I'm doing my best to emulate Dee Dee Ramones rapid downstrokes![/quote]

Any combination of cabs that ends up in an impedance of 4Ohms gets 500w across them all.

So two of your existing cab should be alright, since they add up to 800w, and being the same impedance they receive an even amount of the power (250w from the amp each).

However there is more to it that watts (as I'm sure you are getting now. The wattage is really a measure of thermal dissipation of the voice coil, however you can break a speaker by forcing it to push to far, exceeding its X-Max. If the amp punches above its weight, or the cab has over generous specs then this is even more likely to happen: and the LH500 is definitely punching above its weight, whilst the ashdown cab is ambitiously spec'ed - not good!.

The LH500 is very very loud , and you need really good cab(s) to cope with it when its in full swing, if you hear any distortion at all its time to back the amp off a good bit!

[Merton]

[quote name='51m0n' post='830139' date='May 6 2010, 10:37 PM']The LH500 is very very loud , and you need really good cab(s) to cope with it when its in full swing, if you hear any distortion at all its time to back the amp off a good bit![/quote]
Hell yes.When I owned an LH500 (great amp, miss it but it didn't sit right in the band mix for the rest of the guys sadly ) it only ever sounded really alive when going through a Barefaced cab. Plux's Bergs I can imagine being equally impressive. A MAG410T.... not necessarily so I'm afraid (IMVHO!!)

[Conan]

[quote name='Merton' post='830268' date='May 7 2010, 07:24 AM']it only ever sounded really alive when going through a Barefaced cab. Plux's Bergs I can imagine being equally impressive. A MAG410T.... not necessarily so I'm afraid (IMVHO!!)[/quote]

That may well be so - but there is a world of difference in price to consider there too! I'm pretty happy with my pair of MAG 410s, but I got them BOTH for well under £400. Even new they go for well under £300. Compare that to the price of Bergs and even BareFaced. You get what you pay for, but for most of us, bass gear is only ONE of our outgoings, so compromises have to be made. I'm pretty happy with the sound of my "compromise" but look forward to a time when I might be able to justify £600-700 on one cabinet!!

Edited May 7, 2010 by Conan

[bassmachine2112]

hiho,sounds like you need a sansamp/behringer clone to get the gritty sound your after-plenty of drive and presence.
check the level knob by switching off and on and balance the level.
other ones are mxr 80,hartke bass attack,radial tonebone.Most of these double as a di box as well and are great for recording.
You can go direct to the PA if your amp/cabinet blows at a gig.Geddy lee goes direct to the PA when playing with rush and his sound isn,t shabby.