Lest we forget the mids.

[Alien]

[quote name='rohan' post='830094' date='May 6 2010, 09:56 PM']I always used to go for a huge mid scoop, as tone wise on it's own it sounds pretty punchy, but in the context of a mix, sounds awful.[/quote]

Yup, great solo tone, absolutely awful in a band.

The trick is to find a bit of sonic real estate that nobody else in the band is using. Sub 50Hz and you're all over the bass drum. 200-1kHz is where the rhythm guitar sits. Vocals fit in between 500Hz and 2kHz. Lead guitar fuzz takes up the space from 2-5kHz, and anything above that is string noise and cymbals. That gives us 2 octaves between 50 and 200Hz to fit the majority of our tone in.

It amazes me how many bass players (and sound engineers for that matter) have no idea how to fit things into a mix.

A

[rohan]

[quote name='Alien' post='830180' date='May 6 2010, 11:14 PM']Yup, great solo tone, absolutely awful in a band.

The trick is to find a bit of sonic real estate that nobody else in the band is using. Sub 50Hz and you're all over the bass drum. 200-1kHz is where the rhythm guitar sits. Vocals fit in between 500Hz and 2kHz. Lead guitar fuzz takes up the space from 2-5kHz, and anything above that is string noise and cymbals. That gives us 2 octaves between 50 and 200Hz to fit the majority of our tone in.

It amazes me how many bass players (and sound engineers for that matter) have no idea how to fit things into a mix.

A[/quote]

Had no idea - really helpful actually!

[Alien]

[quote name='rohan' post='830207' date='May 6 2010, 11:59 PM']Had no idea - really helpful actually![/quote]

A couple of years ago me and a mate had a chance to play with a couple of high quality crossovers (4 bands of 48dB/Octave, which we cascaded to make a pair of 96dB/Octaves - virtually a brick wall of crossover!)

We found that these frequency bands are where the majority of the 'recognition' of the tone comes from. Obviously, that's not all there is to it (rhythm and lead guitar go from about 100Hz up to 5kHz or even higher, vocals range from maybe 200Hz with overtones and breath sounds all the way up to about 10kHz etc.), but the [b]bulk[/b] of the tone comes from these bands.

Interestingly, we also found that for most bass players, even when slapping and popping, there's nothing really useful going on above 5kHz. The Marcus Miller kind of brightness goes up to around 7-8kHz, but how many people need that? It does make me wonder why so many amp makers fit tweeters that go all the way up to 20kHz when that top octave is [b]totally[/b] unnecessary, and the top 2 octaves are pointless in the vast majority of cases.

It's something Alex Claber and I agree on - a good midrange driver should give you all the top end you'll ever need.

A

[GreeneKing]

[quote name='Alien' post='830217' date='May 7 2010, 12:22 AM']A couple of years ago me and a mate had a chance to play with a couple of high quality crossovers (4 bands of 48dB/Octave, which we cascaded to make a pair of 96dB/Octaves - virtually a brick wall of crossover!)

We found that these frequency bands are where the majority of the 'recognition' of the tone comes from. Obviously, that's not all there is to it (rhythm and lead guitar go from about 100Hz up to 5kHz or even higher, vocals range from maybe 200Hz with overtones and breath sounds all the way up to about 10kHz etc.), but the [b]bulk[/b] of the tone comes from these bands.

Interestingly, we also found that for most bass players, even when slapping and popping, there's nothing really useful going on above 5kHz. The Marcus Miller kind of brightness goes up to around 7-8kHz, but how many people need that? It does make me wonder why so many amp makers fit tweeters that go all the way up to 20kHz when that top octave is [b]totally[/b] unnecessary, and the top 2 octaves are pointless in the vast majority of cases.

It's something Alex Claber and I agree on - a good midrange driver should give you all the top end you'll ever need.

A[/quote]

I think you need to speak with Dave Perry. He's living proof (and his home build cab totally tonally awesome including mid drivers tweeter and crossover) that the above isn't necessarily the case

Pedro

[Conan]

[quote name='Marvin' post='829975' date='May 6 2010, 07:51 PM']I've a feature on my practice amp that scoops the mids. It makes me sound a million miles away. [/quote]

Yeah. My Cort Curbow has a "slap switch" which does the same. Why is it that all manufacturers assume that if you want to play slap you also want to be inaudible?!

[Adrenochrome]

Absolutely - embrace your inner midrange!
It's also a good way to be audible on stage without needing to be too loud.

To further complicate things, boosted lower and upper mids with a slight mid-mid (sic) dip often sounds nice. I usually send a flat EQ signal to the desk anyway.

[High score]

[quote name='Marvin' post='829849' date='May 6 2010, 05:39 PM']I posted a thread about tone several months ago. In it several posts referred to the mids in getting their tone, specifically cetera.
Since Christmas I've been playing through a zoom pedal and got a little sidetracked, however this afternoon I was twiddling with my practice amp and remembered what cetera said about inverting the usual U shaped eq that many of us go for. And.......oh yes, push up those mids, turn down the bass and treble (but not too much) and what a difference. Literally a tone I've been looking for.

Two problems though. The zoom pedal is not needed (although I suppose I could try and get the same result through it) and the amp I was using is only a 35w practice job so not really suited to anywhere outside the living room .

I just wanted to share that. Don't forget those mids. [/quote]


Ha ha, a bass player who is a sound mans dream. Not only will you have more definition but you will most likely be far clearer and sit in the overall band mix better as well.

Just my tuppence worth

HS

[Low End Bee]

I'll have to be the mid rebel.

As a change I had a go at pushing the mids up at a recent rehearsal. I dominated the band mix and it sounded really 'rubbery' to my ears. Hated it. I'm no slapper either. I like lots of bass and a bit of treble zing.
Mind you I'm in a three piece so there are lots of 'gaps' and it works well. I guess if I was in a band with more going on I may be tempted to use a bit more mid.

The sound person is there to help me. Not the other way around. I am always incredibly nice and polite to them too though and offer to buy them a pint and listen to what they have to say carefully so I nearly always sound decent.

[Raggy]

Low Mids are your friend!

[OldGit]

[quote name='Conan' post='830303' date='May 7 2010, 08:16 AM']Yeah. My Cort Curbow has a "slap switch" which does the same. [b]Why is it that all manufacturers assume that if you want to play slap you also want to be inaudible?![/b] [/quote]


ha ha Oh that is such an open goal

Edited May 7, 2010 by OldGit

[Alien]

[quote name='GreeneKing' post='830270' date='May 7 2010, 07:29 AM']I think you need to speak with Dave Perry. He's living proof (and his home build cab totally tonally awesome including mid drivers tweeter and crossover) that the above isn't necessarily the case

Pedro[/quote]

Dave's rig is a BFM Omni 15 TB isn't it? The BFM website reckons it can be built with or without a tweeter for bass use.

Bear in mind that the 3-way crossover will be cutting some of the higher end of what the midrange driver is capable of producing, so a post crossover tweeter switch will make the rig sound duller than one without a tweeter.

A

[Bilbo]

Interesting fred.

I like my sound (as do the people I play with ) but I will try this on the gig I am doing tonight with my Neil Sedaka Tribute Band, 'Sweet Sixteen'. It will be interesting to see whether it helps or hinders!

[Ancient Mariner]

I'd guess how much cutting and boosting depends on the rig etc too, so it's not a case of just boost everything 50-200Hz.

I found the image below a couple of years back and it's helped me understanding where different instruments lie in a mix - hopefully it's useful to some of you in this context too.

Edited May 7, 2010 by Ancient Mariner

[HMX]

The bassist in Avenged Sevenfold should have a read of this thread.

His slightly scooped mids (or so it sounds) plus a StingRay - which I've been led to believe are slightly mid-scooped anyway- can't lead to a good audible tone IMO.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='830448' date='May 7 2010, 10:38 AM']my Neil Sedaka Tribute Band[/quote]
I wonder how many people have just skimmed over this without thinking...

[Wil]

Stingrays definately have a slight scoop. I watched a band once where the bassist swapped between a Stingray and a Thumb throughout the set - the Stingray was totally inaudible apart from low end mush and top end clank, and the Thumb hit you in the chest with a really clear fundamental note.

I love Stingrays, but you have to EQ them right to get the best out of them.

Edited May 7, 2010 by Wil

[Marvin]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='830602' date='May 7 2010, 12:52 PM']I wonder how many people have just skimmed over this without thinking... [/quote]

I noticed it but chose to ignore it

[Ancient Mariner]

[quote name='Marvin' post='830655' date='May 7 2010, 01:47 PM']I noticed it but chose to ignore it [/quote]

Likewise.

[Spike Vincent]

[quote name='Conan' post='829964' date='May 6 2010, 07:41 PM']I always wondered how JJB was so audible in the mix[/quote]



Truly monsterous amount of compression.

[deathpanda]

my ears don't seem to like the sound of mids, just sounds horrible. I like messing with EQ but I can't get away from the fact that my bass sounds great with everything at 5. slight treble boost if needed, but that's generally all I ever have to do.

[OldGit]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='830448' date='May 7 2010, 10:38 AM']Interesting fred.

I like my sound (as do the people I play with ) but I will try this on the gig I am doing tonight with my [b]Neil Sedaka Tribute Band[/b], 'Sweet Sixteen'. It will be interesting to see whether it helps or hinders![/quote]

Oh very cool.
Some great lines in those tunes.

[essexbasscat]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='830448' date='May 7 2010, 10:38 AM']Interesting fred.

I like my sound (as do the people I play with ) but I will try this on the gig I am doing tonight with my Neil Sedaka Tribute Band, 'Sweet Sixteen'. It will be interesting to see whether it helps or hinders![/quote]

Will you be adding 'That'll be the day' by Buddy Holly on the side Bilbo ?

[NAS]

Yes, this is really useful - if I could only remember it off by heart and know what frequencies I am hearing, or failing to hear, when I'm setting up the band and bass sounds.

Then there's setting EQ on the instrument, on the effects, on the preamp, and the nature of the cabs and their adjustment (tweeter adjustment).

I find raw mids too harsh when soloing the bass sound and like to hear the blend of lows and highs given by the smile, but in a band context the sound is just woofly with no definition or penetration.

I saw Paulo Nutini doing a spot on of all things The Alan Titchmarsh Show a while back and was astounded at the fullness and definition of the bass sound (Michael McDaid playing a semi-acoustic I think) even on small TV speakers. Would love to know what he was doing (or the TV sound engineers were doing) to get that sound. I suppose it was probably very carefully compressed. I'm trying out a T.C. Electronics C300 but there's a bit of a learning curve to add these variables to all the others.

There's also that huge difference between listening to your sound right next to the stack and from 20 feet away (or as far as my lead will allow - haven't gone wireless yet!). Would love to be able to put a me clone in the audience to hear the "whole" sound.

Still twiddling, but those mids do seem to be a major part of the key.


[quote name='Ancient Mariner' post='830510' date='May 7 2010, 11:44 AM']I'd guess how much cutting and boosting depends on the rig etc too, so it's not a case of just boost everything 50-200Hz. I found the image below a couple of years back and it's helped me understanding where different instruments lie in a mix - hopefully it's useful to some of you in this context too.[/quote]

[urb]

My default setting on any bass I play or try out is to go straight for the bridge pup, kill the treble, boost the mids and voila, tone! I often switch between having both pups on with less mid in the mix for lower, softer grooves, but then dial in the back pup and the mids and suddenly I'm cutting through more - the whole scooped slap thing used to appeal to me a few years ago - when I was using EBS funnily enough - but then I started using Epifani (and now Genz Benz) amps and they are a lot more mid-friendly IME - so I can really emphasize the mids and create the perfect sound for any gig I happen to be playing.

M

[GreeneKing]

[quote name='Alien' post='830432' date='May 7 2010, 10:20 AM']Dave's rig is a BFM Omni 15 TB isn't it? The BFM website reckons it can be built with or without a tweeter for bass use.

Bear in mind that the 3-way crossover will be cutting some of the higher end of what the midrange driver is capable of producing, so a post crossover tweeter switch will make the rig sound duller than one without a tweeter.

A[/quote]

Dave's new rig is a home designed Neo 2 x 12" with, if memory serves me correctly one tweeter and one mid range horn. It has a crossover built from individual components and compared with every other cab I've heard, in a real world comparison it's tops the lot, by a significant margin.

In that list of cabs would be my EA's (still very good), Bergs and Alex's own. The cab is a real world beater but Dave isn't in the business of making them for a living sadly.

Peter