If you had £450 to spend on a head...

[BB2000]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='90474' date='Nov 18 2007, 08:48 PM']My experience of 'em, including the LMII, is that they have an almost compressed response when you're thumping around the the low end at volume. It's a pleasant, useable tone, but... I like the thump. It's a tradeoff, but I can live with the weight.

Of course, Italki should try before he buys if possible.[/quote]


AFAIK the LMII has a built in compressor/limiter that's always in circuit.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='BB2000' post='90825' date='Nov 19 2007, 02:20 PM']AFAIK the LMII has a built in compressor/limiter that's always in circuit.[/quote]

I've noticed this on other Class D amps I've used, as well.

[OldGit]

[quote name='mikeh' post='90410' date='Nov 18 2007, 07:05 PM']For that amount I'd be looking at a new Mark Bass LMII[/quote]

+1

[BB2000]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='90837' date='Nov 19 2007, 02:27 PM']I've noticed this on other Class D amps I've used, as well.[/quote]

The LMII isn't a class-D amp (it has a conventional linear output stage) so it's not any class-D related thing you're hearing there.

You could be detecting the difference in the way a linear supply and a smps behaves under load. It is possible to make a smps behave pretty much like an analogue one, but I don't know if any of the bass amp manufacturers do this (Andy of Genz Benz suggests he does). Some of them seem to have enough problems trying to get their smps designs working at all (EA) ...

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='BB2000' post='90869' date='Nov 19 2007, 03:04 PM']The LMII isn't a class-D amp (it has a conventional linear output stage) so it's not any class-D related thing you're hearing there.

You could be detecting the difference in the way a linear supply and a smps behaves under load. It is possible to make a smps behave pretty much like an analogue one, but I don't know if any of the bass amp manufacturers do this (Andy of Genz Benz suggests he does). Some of them seem to have enough problems trying to get their smps designs working at all (EA) ...[/quote]

My mistake... by 'Class D' I mean 'Switching'.

I haven't tried the Neo-Pak.. I would love to, though.

I'm happy to be back in MOSFET-land for the time being. I'll probably revisit switching amps if/when they do behave like an analogue one.. the sooner the better!

[Rumble]

I'm with WOT on this one. I've owned a LM head and have never regretted selling it. Sure it was damn loud and very portable, but I know exactly what WOT (that just sounds all wrong!) means when he talks about the compressed type sound.

For £400 I replaced the LM with an Eden WT400 which I still have and which I still love. I know it's horses-for-courses, but I just don't get the Markbass hype.

[BB2000]

[quote name='Rumble' post='91050' date='Nov 19 2007, 07:45 PM']I'm with WOT on this one. I've owned a LM head and have never regretted selling it. Sure it was damn loud and very portable, but I know exactly what WOT (that just sounds all wrong!) means when he talks about the compressed type sound.

For £400 I replaced the LM with an Eden WT400 which I still have and which I still love. I know it's horses-for-courses, but I just don't get the Markbass hype.[/quote]


I don't think WoT was suggesting that the LMII is a bad amp.

The fact is you shoudn't condemn a design technology because of particular implementations. The tradeoff's that the amp designer makes in the design and implementation determines the performance of the amp. Using smps technology does *not* result in amplifiers that have a lack of punch. Some amps on the market using smps technology do have a lack of punch (te focus that WoT has is one of them) but that is due to the design and implementation. For technical reasons pretty much all commercial PA bass drivers use smps and class-D technology. Have you experienced a lack of punch at every concert you've heard recently? Of course not.

It's the design and implementation decisions made by the designer that WoT is hearing - not inherent deficiencies in smps or class-D. Have a listen to some other smps amps - compare the markbass sd800 to the LMII (or focus) for example - to hear how the implementation affects the sound.

[Kiwi]

Some quality advice here and a good range of opinions and experiences. Nice thread

Might be worth making it a non-wiki sticky?

[wateroftyne]

BB2000... ta for that.

Are you saying the SD800 doesn't run out of steam like I've experienced on other switching amps? Would it thump me in the chest like the Genz, Eden, Warwick and Ampeg heads I've used? (genuine question, not sarcasm!).

[Rich]

[quote name='BB2000' post='90822' date='Nov 19 2007, 02:17 PM']There's a used Peavey T-Max at the bass centre for under £200.[/quote]
That is an absurd bargain for a hell of a lot of amp. You could do far worse than that.

[Mikey D]

Its worth keeping an eye on this on ebay... [url="http://search.ebay.co.uk/_W0QQsassZwaluser5"]Trace Elliot V-Type and seperate 4*10[/url]

Haven't tried it personally, but heard good things. Think there are a few guys on here that can vouch for them.

Also, I'm not fond of Mark Bass at all...

[BB2000]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='91259' date='Nov 20 2007, 08:50 AM']BB2000... ta for that.

Are you saying the SD800 doesn't run out of steam like I've experienced on other switching amps? Would it thump me in the chest like the Genz, Eden, Warwick and Ampeg heads I've used? (genuine question, not sarcasm!).[/quote]

Possibly, but what I'm trying to say is that because an amp has a SMPS, a class-D output stage, or both, doesn't mean that it suffers from a lack of punch.

Next time you're setting up somewhere with a decent FOH rig grab the soundman and see if they use any of the large crown (or qsc or whatever) amps (all the large ones will use SMPS supplies). If they do play straight through them and see if you notice a lack of punch FOH. If you do I'll eat my underpants.

I mentioned the SD800 because if you do a side by side with the LMII you'll notice that it has a lot more thump than the LMII (despite being class-D). Having said that I don't think you would like it (based on my understanding of your preferred sound) because it's not at all a `tubey' sounding amp (sounds quite different to the LMII - more 'articulate').

I think something like a UL902 would be more up your street tonewise.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='BB2000' post='91298' date='Nov 20 2007, 09:57 AM']Next time you're setting up somewhere with a decent FOH rig grab the soundman and see if they use any of the large crown (or qsc or whatever) amps (all the large ones will use SMPS supplies). If they do play straight through them and see if you notice a lack of punch FOH. If you do I'll eat my underpants.[/quote]

Fair point. I think I'll revise my opinion and say that the currently-available switching bass amps I've tried don't have the punch of Crown I-Tech or Lab Gruppen amps. Until they can shoehorn something like those into a box within my budget, I'm stuck with MOSFET..!


[quote name='BB2000' post='91298' date='Nov 20 2007, 09:57 AM']I think something like a UL902 would be more up your street tonewise.[/quote]

I did consider those, but... nah. I'm happy with what I have now. For the next year or so, anyway.

Edited November 20, 2007 by wateroftyne

[G-bitch]

[quote name='Mikey D' post='91272' date='Nov 20 2007, 09:23 AM']Its worth keeping an eye on this on ebay... [url="http://search.ebay.co.uk/_W0QQsassZwaluser5"]Trace Elliot V-Type and seperate 4*10[/url]

Haven't tried it personally, but heard good things. Think there are a few guys on here that can vouch for them.

Also, I'm not fond of Mark Bass at all...[/quote]

Ah yes, anything solid state by Trace Elliot, no matter how old or battered looking, will do a great job of providing good clean no-fuss power. I'd second the T-Max comment, fantastic amp and very reliable (I ran mine at 2 ohms at silly voumes for a good couple of years), although I would recommend a 410 cab - I sometimes struglled volume wise with it when I was running at 4 ohms with a 2x12, no slur on the amp as that was just a poor choice of speaker cab by me considering I was in a metal band.

[warwickhunt]

I'm guilty of going with the general euphoria of MB stuff and earlier this year purchased (new) both the LMK and the SA450, I'd sold them within 6 months. I have to admit that they had a pleasing instantly likeable tone but for my gigging needs they tended to come up short. So I'd advise trying the MB (or any amp for that matter) in a live setting if at all possible.

[Rumble]

[quote name='BB2000' post='91187' date='Nov 19 2007, 11:40 PM']I don't think WoT was suggesting that the LMII is a bad amp.[/quote]

I wasn't suggesting for one minute that he was, but I was agreeing with him on his 'interpretation' of the sound (i.e. compressed and lacking thump...). Re the MB hype, it was always portrayed as being one of the most accurate translators of your bass ("hear your bass as it really sounds" or something like that). My experience couldn't have been further from the truth.

I'm sure for some folks, MB gear sets their world on fire. It may well be that the same folks can't stand Eden gear. Like I said, horses-for-courses.

[51m0n]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='91367' date='Nov 20 2007, 11:57 AM']I'm guilty of going with the general euphoria of MB stuff and earlier this year purchased (new) both the LMK and the SA450, I'd sold them within 6 months. I have to admit that they had a pleasing instantly likeable tone but for my gigging needs they tended to come up short. So I'd advise trying the MB (or any amp for that matter) in a live setting if at all possible.[/quote]


Wow. How did they come up short?

Not evangelising, I want toknow, I recently got an SA450 and havent gigged it yet (lots of studio & rehearsal use though, not enough practice unfortunately).

Seems to be fantastic for me, but I've not used it in anger and would like a heads up as to what was wrong in our opinion on a gig.

What cabs were you using?

I would suggest an SA450 to the OP since I got mine for £470 new

[BB2000]

To be honest, above a few hundred pounds there are very few really bad (sounding) amps. It seems to be in the nature of 'hobby' bassists to fret to much about their gear, whereas in fact the law of diminishing return soon sets in. We are also prone, as a group, to accepting (and indeed creating) hype about a particular product or brand.

As someone with a professional interest in circuit design, I'm prone to reverse engineering any amp that comes my way. Doing this has taught me that price is no guarantee of quality, and that in some cases highly feted (by worthies in popular forums) amps are in fact very poorly designed (leading to the conclusion that they have been designed by someone who doesn't really know what they're doing). This is even more apparent in bass cabinets!

But still - in the main most amps get the job done, and we'd probably be better of taking a lead from the likes of Herbie Flowers, Carol Kaye and the like and putting our effort into more productive things other than tweaking gear.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='51m0n' post='91501' date='Nov 20 2007, 02:35 PM']Wow. How did they come up short?

Not evangelising, I want toknow, I recently got an SA450 and havent gigged it yet (lots of studio & rehearsal use though, not enough practice unfortunately).

Seems to be fantastic for me, but I've not used it in anger and would like a heads up as to what was wrong in our opinion on a gig.

What cabs were you using?

I would suggest an SA450 to the OP since I got mine for £470 new [/quote]

I was using the pair to drive a pair of 4 ohm Tech cabs (1x15 & 2x10). In rehearsals (confined space) and at home (low volume) the sound was nice and full/balanced. When I gigged them I found that I was having to tweak the EQ more and more to get them to cut through the band mix. To my ears I find the MB amps to be quite warm and not flat/neutral as some have described and whether it be the digital/switching supply or the EQ selection I couldn't get the 'thump' or projection that I wanted.

I blamed the cabs, the rooms and my bass (even me) but when I tried various combinations of cab/amp/bass live, I found that whenever the MB was taken out of the equation, I achieved a better (subjective I know) gigging tone. I sold the amps and I now have a digital/switching powered amp (TECH) and a traditional amp (Thunderfunk) and I can happily gig with either so I can only say that for me the MB didn't cut it, for whatever reason!

Just one opinion and sure to be countered by others, so I'd just go with your own impressions.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='BB2000' post='91516' date='Nov 20 2007, 02:51 PM']To be honest, above a few hundred pounds there are very few really bad (sounding) amps. It seems to be in the nature of 'hobby' bassists to fret to much about their gear, whereas in fact the law of diminishing return soon sets in. We are also prone, as a group, to accepting (and indeed creating) hype about a particular product or brand.

But still - in the main most amps get the job done, and we'd probably be better of taking a lead from the likes of Herbie Flowers, Carol Kaye and the like and putting our effort into more productive things other than tweaking gear.[/quote]

Herbie Flowers & Carol Kaye? Yeah.. it must be nice just to to turn up at the studio with a B15 fliptop. Unfortunately I have more than the studio to contend with, so my requirements get a little more complex.

I have/had a very specific list of requirements for practical reasons, and I ended up with an amp that is far from in vogue (the Warwick). I did look at many others, but they virtually everything lacked one thing or another which would just niggle me.

[BB2000]

You seem to have taken offence at my comment - I can only assume that you have misinterpreted me because that was not my intent (and if I've misinterpreted the tone of your response I do appologise ...).

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='91534' date='Nov 20 2007, 03:15 PM']Herbie Flowers & Carol Kaye? Yeah.. it must be nice just to to turn up at the studio with a B15 fliptop. Unfortunately I have more than the studio to contend with, so my requirements get a little more complex.[/quote]

I mean their attitude to the tools of their trade. And as an aside Herbie may be best known for his studio work but I sincerely hope you live long enough to play as much live gigs as he has under his belt. I saw him last a couple of years back on one of 'an evening with' concerts. Out he came with his 36 year old bass, fitted with 36 year old strings, carrying a small combo that must have been built by the Romans and which woudn't have fetched 50p in a charity shop. And of course he sounded fantastic.

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='91534' date='Nov 20 2007, 03:15 PM']I have/had a very specific list of requirements for practical reasons, and I ended up with an amp that is far from in vogue (the Warwick). I did look at many others, but they virtually everything lacked one thing or another which would just niggle me.[/quote]

That's great, but going back to the original intent of this thread (and the reason for my last post) how much of your audience would notice the difference between your AI and your Warwick, and do you think there would really be a consensus that one was better than the other? (In the same vain many many of would notice when you fluff a line?) In the overall picture I'd say it makes no difference to the audience. I've played in large folk type bands not unlike yourself where an audience probably wouldn't notice if I didn't turn up.

In the context of this thread, I stand by my previous message, and my advice to the original poster. I disagree with all those advising him to buy a LMII - fine though that amp is. For most people £450 is a lot of money, and at 17 years old he probably doesn't have to much going spare (and no I'm not trying to be condescending). Since he doesn't have cabs that money would be better spent on a 2nd hand amp such as the £199 T-Max I pointed out earlier. For another £50 each he could probably pick up a used Ashdown Mag 115 and Mag 210. Another £50 could go on decent cables and a bag to store his gigging kit. That would leave £100 for his most important purchase (assume he hasn't already bought some already) - lessons.

Such a rig may be looked down upon by some on the board searching for some 'ultimate tone' but it's the best advice this old fart can give him.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='BB2000' post='91877' date='Nov 20 2007, 10:39 PM']You seem to have taken offence at my comment - I can only assume that you have misinterpreted me because that was not my intent (and if I've misinterpreted the tone of your response I do appologise ...).[/quote]

No offence taken - honestly.

[quote name='BB2000' post='91877' date='Nov 20 2007, 10:39 PM']I mean their attitude to the tools of their trade. And as an aside Herbie may be best known for his studio work but I sincerely hope you live long enough to play as much live gigs as he has under his belt. I saw him last a couple of years back on one of 'an evening with' concerts. Out he came with his 36 year old bass, fitted with 36 year old strings, carrying a small combo that must have been built by the Romans and which woudn't have fetched 50p in a charity shop. And of course he sounded fantastic.[/quote]

I'm sure he did. We're both different people with different requirements, though. If everyone was like Herbie, the world would be a dull - if musically brilliant - place.

[quote name='BB2000' post='91877' date='Nov 20 2007, 10:39 PM']That's great, but going back to the original intent of this thread (and the reason for my last post) how much of your audience would notice the difference between your AI and your Warwick, and do you think there would really be a consensus that one was better than the other? (In the same vain many many of would notice when you fluff a line?) In the overall picture I'd say it makes no difference to the audience.[/quote]

I'd agree with you there. I doubt the audience can tell the difference. I can, though... and at the end of the day, I do it for me.

[quote name='BB2000' post='91877' date='Nov 20 2007, 10:39 PM']I've played in large folk type bands not unlike yourself where an audience probably wouldn't notice if I didn't turn up.[/quote]

Err... no offence to the rest of the band, but If I didn't tun up, the punters would notice. Folk?? I might have to revise the 'no offense taken' comment.

[quote name='BB2000' post='91877' date='Nov 20 2007, 10:39 PM']In the context of this thread, I stand by my previous message, and my advice to the original poster. I disagree with all those advising him to buy a LMII - fine though that amp is. For most people £450 is a lot of money, and at 17 years old he probably doesn't have to much going spare (and no I'm not trying to be condescending). Since he doesn't have cabs that money would be better spent on a 2nd hand amp such as the £199 T-Max I pointed out earlier. For another £50 each he could probably pick up a used Ashdown Mag 115 and Mag 210. Another £50 could go on decent cables and a bag to store his gigging kit. That would leave £100 for his most important purchase (assume he hasn't already bought some already) - lessons.

Such a rig may be looked down upon by some on the board searching for some 'ultimate tone' but it's the best advice this old fart can give him.[/quote]

Wise words, but I basically took the subject of this topic literally. If I had £450, what head would I buy? The Warwick...

Edited November 20, 2007 by wateroftyne

[OldGit]

How about this one
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=8701&view=findpost&p=90143"]MBII and cabs for sale on this very forum[/url]

Edited November 21, 2007 by OldGit