MusicMan SUB's

[cameltoe]

I've seen a Musicman SUB I might be interested in, but I've no idea what they are. Can someone explain to me where they fit in to the whole Musicman family?

I [i]think[/i] I get the rest of the range;

You have proper Ernie Ball Musicman Stingray's and Sterlings and a few other models which are the flagship USA built, £1000+ instruments,

Then you have 'Sterling by Musicman' which are the Indoniesian built instruments which come in a bit cheaper.

Then you get the OLP range which are licensed by Ernie Ball, built to their specs but not actually built by them, and they are more of a budget instrument


I don't understand where the SUB fits in though. I read, from a description on Ebay, that they are basically a passive version of the Stingray, but this can't be right as you can get active SUB's.

They seem to be priced secondhand as a mid-range instrument (£400-ish) but I don't know what the new price was, where they are made, or what sort of role they are supposed to fulfil in the spectrum of Stingrays.

The one I've seen is an active SUB, so any words of advice are welcome. I'm interested in how well they balance and how comfortable they are, how well they play in general, and if I'd need any pickup upgrades. If it helps, my other option here should I not decide to go for it, would be a Classic Vibe precision.

[ThomBassmonkey]

From what I've seen, I believe they're the basses that were in the price range the current SBMMs are, but while OLP was making the budget range.

Recently OLP stopped making official EBMM copies so that they could release the SBMM range, they stopped making the SUBs at around the same time to keep EBMM and SBMM in their own price ranges.

[Ou7shined]

They were brought out in 2003 as a budget version of the 'ray but they were for all intents and purposes so similar to the 'ray that they started doing MM out of business and production was ceased after 3 years. They come either passive or active. The electrics are identical to the 'ray's but the pickups differ in that 'rays are wired in parallel and SUBs (and Sterlings) are wired in series. The hardware is all original MM but is not embossed which the other MM bases are. Unlike most 'rays they have a painted neck - which has been sited as a problem for some - personally I got on ok with it and couldn't feel any difference between painted and lacquered. They come with a rather unusual textured finish which is very hard-wearing and doesn't show up scratches. Don't believe anyone that says they sound just like 'rays coz they don't (pickup wiring) but they are close as you can get without going the whole hog. I loved mine and only got rid of it when I got my 'ray. They sit head and shoulders above the OLP basses which are basically only similar in looks.

[Grand Wazoo]

SUB's were original American made Stingrays [b]BUT[/b] made out of poplar body, unbranded bridges / tuners, covered and in a not so expensive textured paint job, with black painted maple necks obviously to cover the not so pretty maple woods used, they had some sort of anodized metal pickguard. The pickups were supposed to be in-house made but of lesser quality of unknown magnets (alnico or ceramic?) Nevertheless despite the cost cutting excercise from EBMM these were built to top notch quality, proving that they could make quality instrument at low cost, eventually these basses / guitars were built by them at a loss because their profit margin never ended breaking even and as a result they stopped making them. The quality of these is so good that after they have been discountinued, they have become highly sought after and for some EBMM fans they are considered as collector items. I've heard of some lucky basteed that managed to get one of these in a Cash Converter for little money but if you see them on ebay those in the know are willing to pay up to £700-£800 for them. They used to be available in 4 / 5 strings active or passive and even a pau ferro fingerboard fretless. All together they made a StingRay 4 based model, a Sterling 4 one and later even a Stingray based 5 strings with the tear drop pickguard and half moon control plate mounted on the body.

Here below are the full specs as they appeared on their website:

[url="http://www.music-man.com/specs/instruments_sub.html"]http://www.music-man.com/specs/instruments_sub.html[/url]

[cameltoe]

Great info guys, cheers!

I'm already thinking that if I happen to be lucky enough to get my hands on the one I've seen, I'll be getting the soldering iron out and wiring it as parallel. Probably chuck a Wizard pickup in there as well. That weird chequer-plate pickguard will be getting replaced too.

Good to know they're a quality instrument.

[Ou7shined]

In response to Grand Wazoo...
The pickups are identical except in how they are wired.
The current going rate is between £350-450 for a 4 string and a little more for a 5.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='cameltoe' post='832155' date='May 9 2010, 01:21 PM']Great info guys, cheers!

I'm already thinking that if I happen to be lucky enough to get my hands on the one I've seen, I'll be getting the soldering iron out and wiring it as parallel. Probably chuck a Wizard pickup in there as well. That weird chequer-plate pickguard will be getting replaced too.

Good to know they're a quality instrument.[/quote]
Rewiring the pup isn't as easy as you may think. Basically the pickup you see from the front has 2 pups inside. It is inside the pup that the wiring is done. If you start buggering about with a soldering iron you risk losing the pup altogether. The good news is that they are excellent pickups and don't need upgrading. If you put a Wizard or any other pup in you will lose out (imo) and ultimately devalue it.

Here are my 'ray and sub pups side by side.

Edited May 9, 2010 by Ou7shined

[cameltoe]

Cheers for the heads up!

[casapete]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='832164' date='May 9 2010, 01:32 PM']Rewiring the pup isn't as easy as you may think. Basically the pickup you see from the front has 2 pups inside. It is inside the pup that the wiring is done. If you start buggering about with a soldering iron you risk losing the pup altogether. The good news is that they are excellent pickups and don't need upgrading. If you put a Wizard or any other pup in you will lose out (imo) and ultimately devalue it.

Here are my 'ray and sub pups side by side.

[/quote]

+1 to the above.

Great basses that don't require any messing with, just play and enjoy - whats not to like?
I have a couple of Stingrays and a SUB - the SUB is pretty much as good as the Rays.
Seen a few recently for around the 350 quid mark, which makes it in my opinion the best bass for the money.
Do it, you won't regret it.

[Kev]

Great basses, although the novelty no longer exists as the second hand prices for some reason are now too close to a real stingrays to bother. If you can find one for about 350, go for it, but any more than that i wouldn't bother, its worth saving the extra money for the far more comfortable body and non-stick neck of the real stingray.

[dave_bass5]

I agree with Kev.
I sold mine recently on here for £300. I think that was a good price but im amazed that some people are asking £400+ for these basses.
They are nice basses but not worth paying over the odds for IMHO. Although ive only ever played the one Sub i wouldn't have said the workmanship is worth £450+ secondhand, especially when you can get a Sterling by MM for about £550 new, and of course less if second hand.

Edited May 9, 2010 by dave_bass5

[cameltoe]

Would you generally rate Sterling by MM as a better quality instrument?

Seems like that range has taken over where the SUB left off, so would be good to know, especially if they're knocking about in a similar price range

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='cameltoe' post='833027' date='May 10 2010, 01:16 PM']Would you generally rate Sterling by MM as a better quality instrument?

Seems like that range has taken over where the SUB left off, so would be good to know, especially if they're knocking about in a similar price range[/quote]

I would rate MY Ray34 over MY old Sub. It just feels and looks a lot classier to me. Then again im comparing a brand new bass to a 7 year old one that had at least two owners before me.
The body is contoured, the neck feels much nicer, especially the back of it. I really didn't like the painted neck on the Sub. The frets, while not sticking up and so causing any issues, did have slight gaps under some of them. It felt cheap (but thne it is).
Tone wise, the Sub had a 2EQ pre and i actually preferred that to the 3EQ on my Ray34.

I would be happy with another Sub and they are nice basses, but i think some people are just asking too much for them, especially if you have to spend money on it afterwards.
The Ray34 also came in the exact colour combination i wanted.

Again, all in my limited experience.

Edited May 10, 2010 by dave_bass5

[cameltoe]

Interesting, cheers.

So the SUB's have a slab-body, as opposed to the Stingray and Ray34's contoured body?

I guess I'll just have to try one. Right now I just want something that doesn't weigh a ton and balances well round my neck. Fed up of getting back ache.

[faceman]

I have one for sale in the Gallery in Camden which may or may not be coming back to me if you are interested in it? I'd be looking for around ~£300 for it.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='faceman' post='833080' date='May 10 2010, 02:18 PM']I have one for sale in the Gallery in Camden which may or may not be coming back to me if you are interested in it? I'd be looking for around ~£300 for it.[/quote]

Now thats a decent price ;-)

[faceman]

It certainly is, how are you getting on with your bass search Dave?

Buying the SUB from you has stimulated by GAS again and I've picked up a '75 Reissue CIJ Jazz for a second bass! I took it to the gallery when I left London but am debating having them ship it back here so I can either keep or sell privately!

[cameltoe]

[quote name='faceman' post='833080' date='May 10 2010, 02:18 PM']I have one for sale in the Gallery in Camden which may or may not be coming back to me if you are interested in it? I'd be looking for around ~£300 for it.[/quote]

That is a good price, but the problem I have is I'm trying to shift this, which you've probably seen for sale.

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=86299"]Click[/url]

It's a damn good guitar, I just don't get on with it. I put it up at stupidly low price hoping for a quick turnaround.

In a weird twist of fate, I'm going to London this weekend and was going to take this to see if I could trade it for something. First point of call was going to be The Gallery.

I was also contemplating a CV Precision, and I see you've got one of those for sale too.

If you can offer me a decent trade on the SUB (I'll happily chuck in some cash) then I'd go for it.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='faceman' post='833088' date='May 10 2010, 02:24 PM']It certainly is, how are you getting on with your bass search Dave?

Buying the SUB from you has stimulated by GAS again and I've picked up a '75 Reissue CIJ Jazz for a second bass! I took it to the gallery when I left London but am debating having them ship it back here so I can either keep or sell privately![/quote]

Well i sold the DD last week but so far i haven't decided or seen anything i like to replace it with. Im getting on fine with the Ray34 at the moment. Its not perfect but it seems to be doing a good job with the covers bands.
My minds all over the pace at the moment but a CIJ Jazz has also been considered, as has a Squier CV jazz, HW-one Jazz.
I do quite fancy a jazz with a pre in it though. If i got any of the above i think i would put an Audere in it.
Im also thinking of a 5 string again.

But i guess the Ray34 is doing such a great job that im in no hurry. I guess that says something. Ive taken to the MM tone really quickly. Just wish the string spacing was a bit narrower.

Edited May 10, 2010 by dave_bass5

[theplumber]

I picked up a white,with red scratchplate sub from e bay last week...some of you may have seen it...the previous owner had slightly relected it.....very nice bass,heavy...but nice punchy sound....a snip at £260!...very pleased!!!

[cameltoe]

[quote name='theplumber' post='833224' date='May 10 2010, 04:38 PM']I picked up a white,with red scratchplate sub from e bay last week...some of you may have seen it...the previous owner had slightly relected it.....very nice bass,heavy...but nice punchy sound....a snip at £260!...very pleased!!![/quote]

Yep, I saw it!

Was the relic'ing any good or has he made a pig's ear out of it?

I liked it in white. Looked good.

[Grand Wazoo]

[quote name='cameltoe' post='833027' date='May 10 2010, 01:16 PM']Would you generally rate Sterling by MM as a better quality instrument?

Seems like that range has taken over where the SUB left off, so would be good to know, especially if they're knocking about in a similar price range[/quote]

I am afraid but I have to disagree...

If we are talking playabilty and sound the Sub are superior in my views. To me Sterling By MM is a bit like mutton dressed as lamb. the few I tried loked nicely polished and pretty coloured but playing them they eventually felt like copies, I didn't feel like jumping up and down about them. I still believe that if you succeed in getting a decently priced SUB you will own a better instrument.

[Guest johnzgerman]

i found that my SUB 5 was about half as good as my stingray 5, hence the SUB being half the price in the first place, incidently i sold it for about half the price of a 2nd hand ray 5 of the same condition.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='Grand Wazoo' post='833379' date='May 10 2010, 06:23 PM']I am afraid but I have to disagree...

If we are talking playabilty and sound the Sub are superior in my views. To me Sterling By MM is a bit like mutton dressed as lamb. the few I tried loked nicely polished and pretty coloured but playing them they eventually felt like copies, I didn't feel like jumping up and down about them. I still believe that if you succeed in getting a decently priced SUB you will own a better instrument.[/quote]


Most of my negatives are based on looks, feel and the fact that people are asking too much for some Subs.
Im not saying that the SBMM is better, just that for me it is.
For me the Ray34 was just an all round better instrument than my sub, as good as that was (is).

Edited May 10, 2010 by dave_bass5

[40hz]

I have to disagree. Having played a couple of S.U.B's before i bought a SBMM Ray 34 i have to say as good as the SUBS were, the SBMM felt much more like a real stingray in feel and sound and looks.