High end gear - are we kidding ourselves?

[Ian Savage]

[quote name='Mog' post='834810' date='May 11 2010, 10:39 PM']True, but if I went into a studio to lay a track with a beat up road worn rig that hummed and hissed every time someone in the next town turned on a light I would be letting myself down and wasting the time and money of my bandmates. If a bare bones tone is required then all you need is a P bass, a Jazz bass and a good DI. I reamp everything I record so I can find the best tone per track. The majority of tracks on our latest was played on my Yamaha, not high end by any means but everything was polished later through preamps/comps worth 10k+.Some of the production costs could have been cut if I used my higher end gear from the start. Modern recording gear is too sensitive. Anything that could cause unwanted noise is a no no.[/quote]

What he said ^ certainly for recording; the technology available to get great studio bass sounds now is phenomenal, and unless you're needing feedback from your amp (thankfully rare from bassists, I know a good few guitarists (and I count myself amongst them) who can't play 'properly' unless they're in the same room as their amp) you'll get a better, punchier sound through DI-ing a really good bass into the desk.

Live's another matter entirely though...

[TankJon]

I guess its a symptom of peoples aspiration to own something better.

My first "proper" bass amp was a Peavey MK4 head into an old Laney 2x15 (christ was it heavy) and in all honesty it sounded sh*te but it was loud enough for gigging which at the time was all I cared about. After that it was a tech21 bass driver into a behringer power amp ...into the laney 2x15 again. I ditched the 2x15 shortly after that in favour of peavey 4x10. The sound was ok but it was far from hi-fi. After trying out a an EBS HD350 and proline 4x10 cab in a local music shop I took the plunge and coughed up the cash for it. It sounded the absolute mutts nuts but at the time I was playing more gigs as a guitarist and my rack system was getting out of hand so I sold the EBS setup to fund a Mesa triple rectifier. Now that Im playing more bass again Im yearning after another EBS rig ...better start saving the pennies again

[mikhay77]

[quote name='Protium' post='834098' date='May 11 2010, 12:04 PM']The fact that you played through a Hartke that actually works astounds me.[/quote]
Ha ha +1 Bought a hartke 4x10 combo for convenient small gigs,stopped working after a month(no sound),took it back for repair,the shop lent me another,that didnt last one gig(no sound again),got mine back from repair lasted another month sounded like the speakers were all blown,they swapped it for another new one which sounded great but had lost faith and sold it a couple of months later,(anyone in lincoln will know,the big pink music shop,no longer there)oh yeh the point being thats why you use high end gear.Had MB plus other gear always go back to trace,had 4 trace rigs in 20 years of playin and never had so much as a blown fuse.

Edited May 11, 2010 by mikhay77

[cheddatom]

Well, i've used a peavey combo for about 8 years now. It certainly doesn't look high end, but it puts out everything I need.

I was recording a metal band the other day, and this kid turned up with a little ashdown combo. I said "will that be loud enough? You're welcome to try my rig!". He laughed and said "I think this is going to be better, it should be, it cost me £275" - as though price has some bearing on the sound produced. His guitarist friend was using some cheap no name guitar through a marshall MGFX and had great tone, but the bassist just didn't get it. Later on, I asked to borrow his headphones for a second. "yeh, but they only cost £65" - WTF?!?

I've always said you can get the best sounds out of cheap gear. I remember reading similar comments from the members of Asian Dub Foundation - I think the guitarist plays an encore or similar.

I have absolutely no desire for "high end gear".

[MuseMatt]

The only reason I had for buying my Eden Rig was the weight issue I had with my trace/ashdown set. That set sounded absolutely brilliant and it was f*ing loud too!

Money is no guarantee for good sounding gear in my experience, tweaking is everything!

[JTUK]

hmmm I have a very good guy who repairs stuff of ours. Once he has opened it up I always ask him what he thnks of the internals.

He likes decent design and good switching gear...

I wasn't surprised that he liked older SWR amps and although he said he wouldn't design the pre stage as they did, he rated the components and general design. He was brutal about one or two top name American amps tho...and he is a valve man thru and thru.

I think there is hi-end within a large volume output and hi end, IMV.

I've tried a few Ashdowns of late..love the little 250w 15" combo for simplicity and carry, no, didn't buy it though...and some of the amps are hard work.

I think they can all sound decent at low volume though..

[derrenleepoole]

[quote name='Protium' post='834098' date='May 11 2010, 12:04 PM']The fact that you played through a Hartke that actually works astounds me.[/quote]

I seem to recall that when I was starting out way back in the day, Hartke was a 'must have' piece of kit along the lines of Trace Elliot etc... a piece of gear that you'd aspire to own no less. It's amazing how gear comes in and out of favour and fashion. Suddenly everyone wants Hartke again now that Victor Wooten is an endorsee...

[gjones]

I tend to think that the sound you get has more to do with your speakers than with the amp. I've had dodgy cheapo amps in the past (carlsbro, peavey, solid state marshals) and most of them sounded fine at low volume. Of course at high volume the speakers started to fart and get woolly. I experimented in rehearsal rooms with putting these cheap solid state amps through decent speakers and the difference was immense!
The conclusion I came to is you can economise with the amp but try and get the best speakers you can for your money because they WILL make a big difference to your sound.

Edited May 12, 2010 by gjones

[Musicman20]

It's all down to how much you enjoy your hobby. I love playing bass and music in general. I don't have any huge financial commitments and I don't currently envisage ridiculously expensive cars that cost far too much to run. I'd rather have quality gear and enjoy it. You only live once; don't play cheap gear forever

On the subject of Ashdown, I have never been able to get a nice tone.

[51m0n]

[quote name='gjones' post='835122' date='May 12 2010, 10:42 AM']I tend to think that the sound you get has more to do with your speakers than with the amp. I've had dodgy cheapo amps in the past (carlsbro, peavey, solid state marshals) and most of them sounded fine at low volume. Of course at high volume the speakers started to fart and get woolly. I experimented in rehearsal rooms with putting these cheap solid state amps through decent speakers and the difference was immense!
The conclusion I came to is you can economise with the amp but try and get the best speakers you can for your money because they WILL make a big difference to your sound.[/quote]

+10 bazillion!

Assuming you are after clean power then just check out the THD figures of an SS amp.

Then check out the THD of any speaker, its massively higher.

The better the cab the better the sound, a reasonable amp with the required headroom and eq is all that is needed (and lightness for some, and other features for others, and better components for the rest of us).

You can hear the diff of a better amp for sure, but not so much through a crud cab.

Far more obvious is the diff between a poor quality cab and a good quality cab.

[mildmanofrock]

[quote name='derrenleepoole' post='835116' date='May 12 2010, 10:35 AM']I seem to recall that when I was starting out way back in the day, Hartke was a 'must have' piece of kit along the lines of Trace Elliot etc... a piece of gear that you'd aspire to own no less. It's amazing how gear comes in and out of favour and fashion. Suddenly everyone wants Hartke again now that Victor Wooten is an endorsee...[/quote]

Yep - I seem to remember that Chris Squire used Hartke - so as an impressionable lad in the 80s, it became the amp I had to have.

[Conan]

[quote name='derrenleepoole' post='835116' date='May 12 2010, 10:35 AM']I seem to recall that when I was starting out way back in the day, Hartke was a 'must have' piece of kit along the lines of Trace Elliot etc... a piece of gear that you'd aspire to own no less. It's amazing how gear comes in and out of favour and fashion. Suddenly everyone wants Hartke again now that Victor Wooten is an endorsee...[/quote]

Yeah. Mark King did the same for Trace gear in the 1980s. I saved like hell then took out loans to get my Trace stack in 1986 (I was 20 years old!). I thought I was buying the best amplification that there was at the time. To be fair, it never let me down but now it seems to be regarded as, at best, mid-range gear!

I have never tried any of the real top-end stuff. I would like to, but part of me doesn't want to - in case I like it too much and I can't afford it! Also, I'm not sure my old ears would be able to hear the difference!!

On the subject of basses though - I still feel that my 25 year old Status is as good as any bass I have ever played. It just suits me and is like slipping on a favourite pair of shoes... kind of. I [i]may[/i] prefer a Fodera, but could never justify the cost. The Status cost £1300 in 1986 and I thought that was a massive amount of money. I still do!!

Edited May 12, 2010 by Conan

[JTUK]

hmmmm well, I've run average amps through a good speaker set-up and the average amp was the weak link..
It spoilt the signal chain that I know to be very good, IMO, and there was a lot of rescuing to do. I'd never take that set-up anywhere near a gig
and if the amp were mine would have binned it straight away.

And if I had to spend so much time messing around at demo volumes trying to get a sound...just think of the nightmare it might be in variable rooms.

Basically if it doesn't work to a degree straight away pretty much flat, then forget it. This might not define the difference between hi-end of low-end or whatever you want to call it...but a poor signal at either the bass end, effects, amp and cabs will be a PITA that you don't need.

[ianrunci]

I think the point being missed here is that not everyone wants the same bass sound. It's no good having Mark Bass gear or Aguilar stuff if you want a big rock valve sound with a bit of overdrive. Its no good using a vintage Hofner violin bass through an SVT to get a mark king slap sound.

If people want to buy expensive gear then its no different than people buying BMW's or Mercs. I am more of a Toyota man as I like cheap insurance.

As far as sound goes, I get the same bass sound out of anything that I plug into generally. It wouldn't matter if it was 200 quid or two grand I would still dial in the the same sound.

It's impossible to say which would sound better because only you know the sound your looking for. To say "my rig is 2 grand and sounds better than yours" is obviously ridiculous

Build quality will probably be higher although if we are making comparisons with Cars, i doubt Mercs and BMW's engines are more reliable than a Toyota or a Nissan.

High price doesn't always equate to better quality as you often find with watches, clothes, shoes etc sometimes your paying for the name.

If you have the money and like the idea of owning something expensive then why not buy it but it won't make you play any better that's for sure, and you will probably get the same sound out of something a third of the price

[4 Strings]

[quote name='Protium' post='834098' date='May 11 2010, 12:04 PM']The fact that you played through a Hartke that actually works astounds me.[/quote]

I was thinking the opposite, if I turned up to play and it was a Hartke rig supplied that would be great. I'm not surprised the OP was so happy with his sound. I know they don't cost as much as a lot of the exotic stuff but, to my ears, they sound great, can take a pounding and (in my experience at least) has always worked.

Greg

[Musicman20]

[quote name='ianrunci' post='836270' date='May 13 2010, 03:36 PM']If you have the money and like the idea of owning something expensive then why not buy it but it won't make you play any better that's for sure, and you will probably get the same sound out of something a third of the price[/quote]

I agree with what you are saying, BUT, there is one issue with certain manufacturers of high end amps.

Pair up, for example, the Markbass amps with a Bergantino/Aguilar/Markbass cabinets, and it WILL show you more of a full picture with your sound and technique. I thought this was a load of tosh until I heard it myself. Those pairings are so precise to your sound that any poor technique will show very quickly....obviously it sounds fantastic and exactly as your bass should, but your technique needs to be spot on. So in the end, some players might actually benefit from hearing themselves so clearly.

Its not quite the same, but almost the same as comparing a guitar with tube distortion, with the same guitar without tube tube distortion (totally clean). If you arent that good on guitar, the distortion covers it up a little.

Edited May 13, 2010 by Musicman20

[4 Strings]

"As far as sound goes, I get the same bass sound out of anything that I plug into generally. It wouldn't matter if it was 200 quid or two grand I would still dial in the the same sound.

It's impossible to say which would sound better because only you know the sound your looking for. To say "my rig is 2 grand and sounds better than yours" is obviously ridiculous"


I quite agree, however, I remember upgrading from my trusty Carlsboro combo - when I needed something more powerful - to a Trace rig and the sound blew me away, I never imagined I could sound like that. It was way beyond my mind could go to. Bought the big bin too, just coz of the depth it gave. Similarly, Hartke gives a punch like I've never heard before. My sound improved each time.

I'll gladly try anything different to see if unimagined improvements can still be made. I'm sure they can.

[Protium]

[quote name='lemmywinks' post='834311' date='May 11 2010, 03:29 PM']?

Generally Hartke have a great reputation for reliability. A local shop near me changed from Ashdown to Hartke because of all the returns he was getting and is still stocking them to this day.
I had 2 heads and 4 cabs, all of which got gigged regularly and the only problem was with the VX215 - needed some screws to secure the baffle board[/quote]
[quote name='derrenleepoole' post='835116' date='May 12 2010, 10:35 AM']I seem to recall that when I was starting out way back in the day, Hartke was a 'must have' piece of kit along the lines of Trace Elliot etc... a piece of gear that you'd aspire to own no less. It's amazing how gear comes in and out of favour and fashion. Suddenly everyone wants Hartke again now that Victor Wooten is an endorsee...[/quote]
[quote name='4 Strings' post='836278' date='May 13 2010, 03:44 PM']I was thinking the opposite, if I turned up to play and it was a Hartke rig supplied that would be great. I'm not surprised the OP was so happy with his sound. I know they don't cost as much as a lot of the exotic stuff but, to my ears, they sound great, can take a pounding and (in my experience at least) has always worked.

Greg[/quote]


I'm just quoting from experience, I've never played through any Hartke equipment that worked

[JTUK]

The thing about getting the same sound out of anything you plug into can cut both ways..

I recently let a guy use my set-up..which is pretty clean.. and I just knew his bass signal was not going to work. To my mind he could not have cleaned that sound up in a million years. The bass was pretty fancy but sounded not so good, to my ears...very dull and thumpy. I do agree he could have gotten that sound out of anything but he could never have changed it. I am not so sure he wanted to either so we might have appproached this in very different ways.

But your sound is your sound..and it must cross over to what other people in the band think and want..or if you are meeting all sorts of players, it needs to be cultured and in tune with what they are doing. Everyone will have their mix..but flexibility without losing your core sound is key, IMV.

You need to know your amp for that........

[51m0n]

[quote name='ianrunci' post='836270' date='May 13 2010, 03:36 PM']I think the point being missed here is that not everyone wants the same bass sound. It's no good having Mark Bass gear or Aguilar stuff if you want a big rock valve sound with a bit of overdrive. Its no good using a vintage Hofner violin bass through an SVT to get a mark king slap sound.[/quote]

I'd disagree with this. No one is assuming that everyone wants the same bass sound at all here.

First off, if you want that 'classic' big rock sound you are looking for big lead sled rigs into fridges, and vintage ones at that, which is it's own boutique market. Markbass do a very credible all valve head/sealed cabinet rig as well though, have you ever heard it??

Bergantino do a range (the NV range) of sealed cabs, the NV610 is considered better, louder, smaller and lighter than the ubiquitous Ampeg fridge. The entire NV range is staggeringly good with big valve heads, its designed specifically to do vintage tones with modern technology.

Have you ever heard an Aguilar DB 750 or 751? Into a modern 'vintage' cab(s)? I'd bet my left nut that into an NV215 and NV610 or NV412 it would deliver just about the most immensely beautiful rock tone of all time, or there abouts. Certainly as good as any vintage Ampeg rig, only 4 times louder....

Are Matamp boutique?

There are enough boutique manufacturers to cover anything your little heart desires tonewise. You seem to assume that boutique only means hifi, or clean. Some boutique stuff is just like that, plenty isnt.

[quote name='ianrunci' post='836270' date='May 13 2010, 03:36 PM']If people want to buy expensive gear then its no different than people buying BMW's or Mercs. I am more of a Toyota man as I like cheap insurance.[/quote]

Well I didnt really get your analogy. Mainly because (if you've ever been to Germany you'll know this) Mercs are just German taxis, BMWs are just German salesman's cars.

If you want to improve your analogy then compare your Toyota to an Aston, Rolls or Bentley at least!

The aftersales service on a Rolls is a little different to that on a Toyota I'm led to believe. When was the last time you had an issue with your car, phoned the dealer and talked to the boss of the company and designer of the vehicle in person?

[quote name='ianrunci' post='836270' date='May 13 2010, 03:36 PM']As far as sound goes, I get the same bass sound out of anything that I plug into generally. It wouldn't matter if it was 200 quid or two grand I would still dial in the the same sound.[/quote]

With all due respect I disagree. You may go for the same kind of sound, but a really top notch amp/cab configuration will deliver it 'better' than a cheap rig in almost all case. The cab is particularly critical in this regard IME.

[quote name='ianrunci' post='836270' date='May 13 2010, 03:36 PM']It's impossible to say which would sound better because only you know the sound your looking for. To say "my rig is 2 grand and sounds better than yours" is obviously ridiculous[/quote]

No its not. The price isnt necessarily the key, but you will be bale to A/B two rigs and state almost always which delivers the goods better. Have you never tried this? If not take your own rig and visit Mark at BassDirect. Warning, take your credit card....


[quote name='ianrunci' post='836270' date='May 13 2010, 03:36 PM']Build quality will probably be higher although if we are making comparisons with Cars, i doubt Mercs and BMW's engines are more reliable than a Toyota or a Nissan.[/quote]

Possibly, but then I would doubt any cab you are thinking of would be more reliable than mine, and the above mentioned aftersales would cover me far longer than you I'm afraid.

[quote name='ianrunci' post='836270' date='May 13 2010, 03:36 PM']High price doesn't always equate to better quality as you often find with watches, clothes, shoes etc sometimes your paying for the name.[/quote]

Well it does with small boutique bass equiptment (Berg, Thunderfunk etc). Really! Read more in depth reviews of thius kit, the ones where thye take it apart and show you the guts, nothing compares to really boutique kit for attention to detail. That does translate to the final sound as well.

[quote name='ianrunci' post='836270' date='May 13 2010, 03:36 PM']If you have the money and like the idea of owning something expensive then why not buy it but it won't make you play any better that's for sure, and you will probably get the same sound out of something a third of the price[/quote]

Yes it will. It most definitely makes you play better. Two reasons:-

It produce a far more accurate representation of what you are doing, therefore you have to tidy up your playing or the audience WILL hear all the dross that you used to get away with (IME esp with the AE410!).

You will get more visceral joy from the sound it makes (because it really is noticeably that much more satisfying) and therefore that translates into your performance for the audience (again IME with my own fairly boutique rig).

Sorry...

Edited May 13, 2010 by 51m0n

[ianrunci]

Ok

I'll concede, you know what sound I like better than I do , your amp sounds better than mine at doing my sound, and your equipment is much more reliable.
And your gear makes you a much better player


I better start saving...............

[51m0n]

[quote name='ianrunci' post='836933' date='May 14 2010, 10:09 AM']Ok

I'll concede, you know what sound I like better than I do , your amp sounds better than mine at doing my sound, and your equipment is much more reliable.
And your gear makes you a much better player


I better start saving............... [/quote]

Lol! Brilliant!

I dont think I actually said that mate.

What I was trying to convey was that YOU could well find that if YOU actually tried some of the boutique gear out in a direct A/B comparison with YOUR current gear, YOU would in all likelihood prefer how it sounded, how it delivered YOUR sound etc. That it would then help make YOU a better player than you are, or at least help YOU play to the very best of YOUR ability, and even get YOU to be a better player in the long run.

I have no where stated that my gear sounds better to you than yours does, or that I'm a better player than you because of my gear. I could not care less whether or not my gear sounds more like you want to than yours does, or if I am or am not a 'better' player you, it is not a race after all. I will bet significant money (clearly, I dont like adding up the total cost of my kit, it gives me heebie jeebies!) that my gear sounds better to ME than yours does, that it has made ME a better player than I was, that it helps ME to perform better on a gig than any previous gear has.

I maintain that the aftersales service is very likely to be better (not always I grant you), with certain boutique manufacturers though, they are reknowned for having way better aftersales than any 'normal' manufacturer. And that the reliability will be at least as good.

Lastly, unless YOU have taken your kit somewhere with a wide selection of the current top of the crop of quality gear, where there is an on hand expert in listening to what you are looking for to help you make some educated choices for you to compare, then you are talking from the perspective of one who hasnt in all likelihood tried the best suited boutique kit anyway. So how would you know?

And all the above IMO...

I find it staggering that you would suggest that everyone has been kidding themselves when trying to find the best kit to deliver the tone they want to for all these years. What everyone?? We should instead all have stuck with a Peavey 300w 115 combo and got on with it, because nothing could possibly sound better in any meaningful way. Thats clearly nonsense...

Edited May 14, 2010 by 51m0n

[Musicman20]

[quote name='ianrunci' post='836933' date='May 14 2010, 10:09 AM']Ok

I'll concede, you know what sound I like better than I do , your amp sounds better than mine at doing my sound, and your equipment is much more reliable.
And your gear makes you a much better player


I better start saving............... [/quote]

Oh heck, please don't go thinking there is any sense of snobbery/pretense about high end gear. Basically, my advice is use your own ears. I wouldn't listen to anyone trying to tell you what's the perfect amp/cab for you unless it's just general advice on a tone or style they are aware of. That's what the forum helps people with. Nothing has to be silly money...seriously. I could and nearly did spend more on speaker cabinets, despite the fact I have what I consider to be top notch kit. It's all down to you. Lots of players buy the uber high end then I see it for sale two weeks later. It might be for you, it might not be. There is, and I fall foul of it, 'hype' regarding a lot of kit. You just have to decide for yourself.

Example: The TC RS cabinets at first seemed odd to me. I didn't even consider them, but I really liked the amp. Only when I heard them a few times did I understand what they were aiming for. Not only that, a direct comparison of the cabinets with more expensive ones on a sound clip a player produced showed exactly the differences. Eg, hardly anything. So I ended up selling a Berg cabinet. Yep, it was awesome, loud, and small, great tone. But, I realised it wasn't 100% right for ME.

Another issue: beware advice from any store about anything that involves you spending a lot of money. Do a little research before. Unless you know the guys/girls personally, it could just be pointing you at the most expensive product. Once you get high end, the differences are minimal; it's down to your preference.

[faceman]

I played my Little Mark II and Ampeg B115E cabinet at my gig last Saturday and it was bloody fantastic. Got some complements from some mates in the audience on my tone and from the recordings it sounded great. It wasn't too expensive either with the LMII second hand for £300-ish and the Ampeg was a swap for my old Ashdown 4x10.

Example of deep, thick, modern and old. Not too expensive either and it's on wheels too. However, my keyboardist decided to buy himself a new 35kg Roland Phantom thingy that requires too people to lift. Or a cabinet on wheels...

[51m0n]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='836969' date='May 14 2010, 10:51 AM']Oh heck, please don't go thinking there is any sense of snobbery/pretense about high end gear. Basically, my advice is use your own ears.[/quote]

+1 Also dont go ignoring high end gear on the basis of some kind of reverse snobbery either. Try it all in situ if at all possible, then make a purchasing decision that gives you as close to the timbre you want at the best price for you.

If that turns out to be a Peavey combo then brilliant, spend the rest on a really great holiday

But dont dismiss the 'best' kit or more expensive stuff without having tried it since you are then not giving yourself all the options.

I didnt buy an ae410 because of hype, I researched what should be the very best 4x10 for my needs.

It was going to have to be lighter than 4x10s of old (nasty back issues - had to be a neo cab), have a timbre more suited to punch than mega deep bass (ruled out the Epifani UL series), needed to be efficient so as to produce all I would need from a 500w amp, needed to be 4ohm to get the most out of that amp, and needed to sound the best I could find. A big plus would be if it fit in my car (duh!), and the only 410 on the market that met the criteria were the Berg and possibly the smaller Markbass. The Berg sounds far better than the Markbass to my ears. So I got the Berg. Its also the best sounding single cab I've ever heard, although Plux's HT210 HT115 stack sounds as good, but its two cabs, each of which is heavier than the ae410. Also the ae410 is also louder than his stack, which is amazing!

It took me a long time to nail it down to an ae410, long enough to have saved up the cash for it when I had finally got to the point of making a decision.