Serious repair for DB

[janmaat]

Hi all,

I got this DB from a friend who has been busking with it for five years in all weather conditions on the five corners of the world. You can see how he's played it - slapping, so the finger board is really grinded down... The neck once broke off and has been screwed back on!

For me it's my first DB and since I got it for free, great to get started. I even used it on a gig but hey, the strings are too high and tight, and I don't want to destroy my arms and get a crap technique from the start. (I've been playing sitar, and home-built fretless bucket bass for a while so I have no problems to find notes etc.)

For the money I'd have to spent for a fingerboard and bridge job I could buy the whole thing new, so it's got to be a DIY.

It is (or shall I say, it was) an Antoni ply chinese bass. Don't get me wrong, the bass "works", it has been treated just so it does the job - well for someone like Simon who's got the power of a brick layer in his slap... Now I'm a bit of a jazz man...

I've treated the body with sand paper and varnish so it's "ok".

My plan is to sand down the finger board, maybe using a long hard straight thing trying to even it out (it's a bit banana shaped due to rain probably). Then, treat it - some wood filler and some kind of varnish, but which?

Then the bridge needs to be moved and lowered, that bit scares me most.

Then lighter gauge strings.

Images attached... get ready...

Any advise people? Cheers...!

[endorka]

The state of that bridge!!!!! :-)

Sounds like a great project. There is a lot to do though - I would recommend you get Chuck Traeger's "Setup And Repair of the Double Bass for Optimum Sound" - it tells you exactly how to go about doing what you need. I've used this book with great results for all kinds of tweaking and repairs on my own double bass.

You mention terror at the prospect of fixing the bridge, but it is probably the simplest thing to fix...

Jennifer

[Prosebass]

Looking at the photos , the problem with the action would appear to be from an incorrect neck angle which would need rectifying to ever get it set up right.
If you could re-set the neck to achieve this the board may be able to be refinished with several layers of thin veneer or could be built up / smoothed with plenty coats of alkyd resin and flatted off , or even both.
I would say from the photos you would need to do this first before you would know whether you needed a new bridge and nut inserts or if the existing ones could be modified.

I'd have a look for you but you are too far darn saarf

Edited May 13, 2010 by Prosebass

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

It looks like the bridge has been cut low as the neck angle has changed. I think the neck needs to be set at the proper angle and then a new bridge fitted. Not that I'm an expert of course.

edit - just seen prosebass has said much the same thing

Edited May 13, 2010 by Jean-Luc Pickguard

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

[quote name='endorka' post='835833' date='May 13 2010, 01:52 AM']I would recommend you get Chuck Traeger's "Setup And Repair of the Double Bass for Optimum Sound"[/quote]
I just checked this is on amazon as it sounds like the kind of book I could benefit from - current price is over £80!

[janmaat]

Hi,

first, thanks all...

as for re-fitting the neck, I don't think that's a good idea - seeing all those screws and stuff...
how to re-fit it so it won't come off again? it's rock solid where it is now, so i think i'd rather
leave it where it is and only do the finger board and the bridge - after all i want it to be
easier to play, though the sound can surely be improved it'll never really be a stradivadi...
pretty sure the neck's in a 'wrong' angle (at least, the right way round though

you are certainly right suggesting to start with the finger board, and then see what can be
done to the bridge. The finger board is very uneven now due to a lot of slapping, so it would def
need sanding down first (or filling??). and then? what's the product(s) to apply? should
i oil it slightly, then varnish (varnish? what varnish)? -

and thanks for the book tip will see if i can get my hands on one (library?)...

[steviedee]

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='836015' date='May 13 2010, 11:26 AM']I just checked this is on amazon as it sounds like the kind of book I could benefit from - current price is over £80! [/quote]

My thoughts exactly!

[Prosebass]

[quote name='janmaat' post='836050' date='May 13 2010, 12:07 PM']Hi,

first, thanks all...

as for re-fitting the neck, I don't think that's a good idea - seeing all those screws and stuff...
how to re-fit it so it won't come off again? it's rock solid where it is now, so i think i'd rather
leave it where it is and only do the finger board and the bridge - after all i want it to be
easier to play, though the sound can surely be improved it'll never really be a stradivadi...
pretty sure the neck's in a 'wrong' angle (at least, the right way round though

you are certainly right suggesting to start with the finger board, and then see what can be
done to the bridge. The finger board is very uneven now due to a lot of slapping, so it would def
need sanding down first (or filling??). and then? what's the product(s) to apply? should
i oil it slightly, then varnish (varnish? what varnish)? -

and thanks for the book tip will see if i can get my hands on one (library?)...[/quote]

If the neck is not for coming off then the only options are either to re-finish or to put a new veneer on the board.
Putting a new veneer on would be the best option but probably not the easiest DIY so I would go for filling and flatting the board.

You need a good "long hard straight thing" that you can attach varying grades of aluminium oxide paper to using double sided tape.
If you want I can shape a nice length of mahogany for this purpose for you if you cover the postage (send me a PM)
B&Q do some good rolls of the paper you will need (about £8.00 each) and I would suggest using 120 and then 240 grades

It is essential that you sand evenly both lengthways and across the board to keep it even .
After you have started you will soon see where the high and low spots are and whether much filler is needed and it would be best to use as little as possible just filling the screw holes if you can.
Wood filler is generally not very good and a small tube of flexible car body filler would be better.
If it does not need much filler you may be able to use the next process to fill any small areas.

After the sanding the wood will need cleaning with methylated spirits (the purple stuff) It does not soak in so the grain won't swell.
Don't worry about the board being super smooth as the coating will need something to 'key' to.

The best coating I have found is Rustins Alkyd - Resin floor sealer. ( you will need 600 wet and dry paper to flat it between coats)
This is a 2 pack finish and has the advantage that it goes off quickly so you can do several coats in an afternoon.
Mask off the rest of the neck and mix the sealer following the instructions to the letter.
You can use the sealer to fill any small irregularities first and when dry sand flat with the rest of the board.
After this apply a full coat to the neck , (use a natural fibre brush as nylon bristles will melt)
When dry flat each coat back smooth , wipe with the meths , allow to dry and then re-coat.
How many coats is up to you and how long you want to spend on it.

Hope this helps....

[endorka]

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='836015' date='May 13 2010, 11:26 AM']I just checked this is on amazon as it sounds like the kind of book I could benefit from - current price is over £80! [/quote]

It may seem expensive, but by showing me how to do repairs and modifications properly, it has paid for itself many times over, and my bass now sounds how I like it to sound, not someone else's idea of what it should sound like - priceless!

Jennifer

[thisnameistaken]

Don't you need a lot of specialist tools and a sizeable workshop to do your own bass maintenance though?

[endorka]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='836772' date='May 14 2010, 01:22 AM']Don't you need a lot of specialist tools and a sizeable workshop to do your own bass maintenance though?[/quote]

It would certainly help for the really serious stuff, but you can do a lot with normal tools. Off the top of my head, things I've done are;

Saddle repair
Nut filing
Cut the bridge properly and adjusted string spacing
Fitted bridge height adjuster wheels
Soundpost adjustment
Open seam repair
Steel endpin replaced with carbon fibre
Afterlength tuning
Removal of varnish from back of neck

There are probably more but my brain is hurting!

It's all good stuff and there is a lot of potential for tweaking many factors on a double bass to get the optimum sound.

Jennifer

[janmaat]

Hi Prosebass I just received your three bits of mahagony, very happy, will get on with the job & keep you guys posted, thanks for all that

[bassace]

[quote name='endorka' post='836785' date='May 14 2010, 04:27 AM']It would certainly help for the really serious stuff, but you can do a lot with normal tools. Off the top of my head, things I've done are;

Saddle repair
Nut filing
Cut the bridge properly and adjusted string spacing
Fitted bridge height adjuster wheels
Soundpost adjustment
Open seam repair
Steel endpin replaced with carbon fibre
Afterlength tuning
Removal of varnish from back of neck

There are probably more but my brain is hurting!

It's all good stuff and there is a lot of potential for tweaking many factors on a double bass to get the optimum sound.

Jennifer[/quote]

And I bet you can do car maintenance and household plumbing too! Good on yer.

[TPJ]

[quote name='endorka' post='836785' date='May 14 2010, 04:27 AM']It would certainly help for the really serious stuff, but you can do a lot with normal tools. Off the top of my head, things I've done are;

Saddle repair
Nut filing
Cut the bridge properly and adjusted string spacing
Fitted bridge height adjuster wheels
Soundpost adjustment
Open seam repair
Steel endpin replaced with carbon fibre
Afterlength tuning
Removal of varnish from back of neck

There are probably more but my brain is hurting!

It's all good stuff and there is a lot of potential for tweaking many factors on a double bass to get the optimum sound.

Jennifer[/quote]

Are these skills you've gained using the book mentioned earlier? I admire your courage to tackle some of these.
I'd love to be able to adjust my sound post with confidence, knowing I wasn't going to break anything.
Common sense and knowledge are a necessity, but not necessarily in that order.

[janmaat]

So using the mahagony pieces Prosebass has sent to me (thanks again dude - brilliant!) it was fairly "easy" to sand the fingerboard down... ah well yes it's smooth now but it ain't straight, still a bit a banana really, look!

When I took the strings off, i noticed that the endpin came off with the tailpiece, to which it was attached by some sort of string that appears to be heavy duty garden equipment. The hole for the endpin is much larger than needed as previous owner must have used the bass as a crutch.

Next - what? suppose trying to de-banana using the long mahagony piece?

[janmaat]

Hm, now I've continued sanding but the problem seems to be that it's actually a bit more of an "L" shape than a "U", due to the screws in the middle. But it looks and feels quite nice now and well, will do (not super dooper low action but okay i'd say) so will probably go for the next steps now.

Another thing, now I've got it on the bench - and still considering it will never sound classical or even jazzy - should I not give it a go and paint it in some stunning colour, or a cow pattern or something like that? I mean, dragging that on stage is mainly for the optics anyway. - I suppose it's all about sanding the entire body and then applying some sort of car laquer paint? i'm good in stencil cutting, just wondering what paint(s) to use - advise, dear experts?

[Buzz]

Jesus, considering the state of that neck "repair" I would have started there before attacking the fingerboard but it's a bit late now. You could have detached it and glued it properly at the correct angle and fixed the original damage.

Good luck on fixing it although personally, I say nuke it considering the damage it's taken.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Buzz

[Kiwi]

I've seen worse repairs fixed on more expensive basses...I'd agree that neck joint needs looking at first through.

[endorka]

[quote name='TPJ' post='846621' date='May 24 2010, 04:27 PM']Are these skills you've gained using the book mentioned earlier? I admire your courage to tackle some of these.
I'd love to be able to adjust my sound post with confidence, knowing I wasn't going to break anything.
Common sense and knowledge are a necessity, but not necessarily in that order.[/quote]

I've gained most of them from the book - one or two of the simpler tasks I did (or could have done) using common sense, but there is no way I would have attempted the more complex tasks such as fitting the bridge adjusters or moving the soundpost without referring to it!

Jennifer

[CoolCat]

I am sorry, but I cannot stop smiling thinking about the moment someone went:

"Right ! I will wedge this bit of biscuit on this neck crack, screw it - and it will be like new!!"


Obviously is not a bit of biscuit and I don't intend to be disrespectful towards your bass. I love a project myself.

Technically you refer to the fingerboard as "banana" shaped - it should have a smooth arc ! ...somewhat less exagerated - because otherwise the strings will buzz. See it like the "neck relief" you adjust with a truss rod on electrical bass/guitar.Too much and it will be hard to press the strings.

As long you are confident the neck joint is solid and wont snap on you, leave it and enjoy the bass.
It takes luthier's experience and tools to refit and make it work as new.

However, you can file those nut slots down (maybe even change the nut: ebony piece=£5 ) and the bridge needs immediate slot attention. All those deep slots are grabbing the strings !!

Have fun.

Edited May 27, 2010 by CoolCat

[janmaat]

So it's set up again.

I have sanded the fingerboard after cutting about 10 inch from the bottom of it, taking off up to 3 mm all along. Then I filled the holes with car body filler, painted it with emanel black spray paint, coated it with yacht varnish, always sanding in between (using the mahagony blocks prosebass made for me - cheers dude that was sooo handy!!!). Then the board looked so nice I couldn't live with the trashy look of the rest of it, so i sanded the whole body down a bit, gave it a grey undercoat, an acrylic blue undercoat, and a rather cloudy java blue car paint coat. Most of these materials were chosen on a low budget and in fact I didn't spend enough on the java blue to make it look solid, instead I sprinkled some silver spray paint so it looks more like a night sky rather than a car. (I actually think it looks like a whale). I really didnt want to spend more than 50 quid on this monster and not too much time neither. But also fitted a bit of wood over the tailpin hole so it sits firm again.

I then sanded the bridge and cut the excess off at the top, and had a go on it with a knife giving it its present shape - rough job I admit, but may fine-tune that soon.

The previous owner came round and we set the soundpost back up with a barbeque fork and knocked the thing back together, re-stringing it with some old metal core strings another mate donated. Tuning up and yes it works! Fitted that cheap shadow piezo that I keep for years, sticking it in the bridge with some pressure between cigarette filter tips. That pickup sounds astonishingly good (through a Fishman BII pre), even better than the DB double-clip-on we tried as comparison.

I'll be going to show it to a luthier for some more recommendations. Particularly I believe I could give the nut a go lowering the action a bit more from the top end. And one of the tuners is really crap (the D).

Thanks all for your valuable advise, and I'll keep you posted about future improvements & adventures.

Sorry for the bad quality pics but my camera died so I took these with my phone.

Oh and by the way, does anyone have a gig bag for sale ?

[CoolCat]

Kudos to you, it looks very good considering the initial state of the beast.

The nut job (no pun intended) is quite simple considering the work you have done already.
Just place a business card below the strings for clearence to the fingerboard and use round or neddle files on the slots until the strings touch the card.
Sand down for a perfect finish all the excess material from the top of the nut until the slots are deep about half of the string height.Lubricate using a soft pencil back and forward on the slots a few times to coat the slot - good on the bridge slots as well.


Well done you. Sound clips.

[janmaat]

[quote name='CoolCat' post='869820' date='Jun 17 2010, 12:19 PM']Kudos to you, it looks very good considering the initial state of the beast.

The nut job (no pun intended) is quite simple considering the work you have done already.
Just place a business card below the strings for clearence to the fingerboard and use round or neddle files on the slots until the strings touch the card.
Sand down for a perfect finish all the excess material from the top of the nut until the slots are deep about half of the string height.Lubricate using a soft pencil back and forward on the slots a few times to coat the slot - good on the bridge slots as well.


Well done you. Sound clips.[/quote]

Yes I will do this.

I think the yacht varnish was a mistake - didnt know the stuff was that rubbery / soft. Will probably have to get rid of that again at some point and then do as prosebass recommended: floor paint.

[janmaat]

So the idea to recycle some strings didn't quite work as the low E just broke. Hello out there, can you help me by suggesting what type of strings I should put on? I'm a DB beginner, so I play country, really, but leaning towards - jazz...

[BigBeatNut]

[quote name='CoolCat' post='869820' date='Jun 17 2010, 12:19 PM']Kudos to you, it looks very good considering the initial state of the beast.[/quote]
Same from me. Have to say, when I saw the first pictures, I thought, what the **** are you going to be able to do with that. I also cringed when I read the bit about removing the end of the fingerboard. But all in all, given the starting point, I think you have a good end-result.