Playing behind, on or ahead of the beat?

[Beedster]

I thought I intuitively understood what these terms meant until recently, when I read an interview with Anthony Jackson which completely confused me. So, can I get some clarification? Firstly, what exactly do the terms mean; secondly, what effect does each have on the feel of the track; and thirdly, what sort of practice techniques can I use to achieve each?

Cheers

Chris

[Bilbo]

This is one of the issues that I find shows the limitations of language.

The only way I can describe it is to suggest that playing ahead of the beat gives a sense of urgency to the playing (fusion, rock) whilst playing behind the beat creates a much lazier feel (reggae). The trick is to not be playing a beat ahead or behind, ie. speeding up or slowing down, but to remain 'connected' to a common sense of time.

For examples of playing behind the beat, I suggest listening to these tracks: the first is behind the beat - a little laid back, the second ahead, a lot more intense.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHsLfsDgfLM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHsLfsDgfLM[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Nsys9d99HY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Nsys9d99HY[/url]

This is probably no help at all!!

[Clarky]

In my punk band, I try to play a fraction of a second ahead of what my ear tells me is the start of each verse/chorus. As Bilbo said it imparts more urgency and I find our stuff holds together better. But it is only a fraction of a second (much less than a 16th note). I assume the same applies in reverse to playing behind the beat in reggae etc

[chris_b]

You "attack" ahead of the beat, you "groove" behind the beat. Which one you do should depend on the band and song.

[Wil]

I think of each beat as a cyclical form - imagine a clock where the second hand completes a full circle every beat, with the beat dead on 12. Playing ahead of the beat would be hitting a note at say, 10 o'clock. Playing behind would be hitting it at 2 o'clock. Obviously the exact point you hit the note would vary depending on the feel you wanted to go for in the song.

[jakenewmanbass]

Swing (walking bass) leans towards the front of the beat and creates a very driving feel (listen to anything by Ray Brown), Rock 8ths can also be played on top and driving, especially at the punkier end of the spectrum.

Anthony Jackson himself can be heard playing 'on' the beat in IGY on Donald Fagens Nightfly. It's very accurate and very 'with' the kit. I think that really good 'on' playing is the most technically challenging and is more the preserve of the very accomplished player. Swing or funk feels can be played by good imitators, but sometimes those people can do little else.

Behind the beat is funkier and lazy, a really fabulous example of which is Will Lee playing 'take you Higher' on D'Angelo's Brown Sugar. Lots of funk bass is played behind creating a very deep groove, or fat pocket. Think 'Thats the way' by KC and the sunshine band or James Jamerson on '90 day cycle people' or all of the Whats going on grooves.

Happy to answer further questions on this if needed Chris, it's an interesting subject and should be paid attention by aspiring players. I would be interested to hear some of AJs comments, he is in my view one of the worlds most accomplished players.

As for what to practice, I would say listen hard to some of the things that have one of the 3 attributes and learn to copy them very very very exactly. If necessary record yourself to see how close you can get it....

Edited May 17, 2010 by jakesbass

[Beedster]

Guys, many thanks for the above. Given what you've all said I've either misread Anthony Jackson or he's talking in overly complex terms about something that's quite simple. Unfortunately, the I don't have the book with me to check but I will be able to do so later in the week. Either way, although I think I had the idea right, I was still at something of a loss as to any difference in feel between the three styles, so Bilbo and Jake, many thanks for the examples, I'll take a listen to them.

Cheers

Chris

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Wil' post='839640' date='May 17 2010, 10:59 AM']I think of each beat as a cyclical form - imagine a clock where the second hand completes a full circle every beat, with the beat dead on 12. Playing ahead of the beat would be hitting a note at say, 10 o'clock. Playing behind would be hitting it at 2 o'clock. Obviously the exact point you hit the note would vary depending on the feel you wanted to go for in the song.[/quote]

Good god man, have you been reading my posts?

The way I see it, there's a 'pocket' which is however far in front or behind the beat you can get away with without totally ballsing up the rest of the band. I tend to play on the beat but prefer to play behind. Forcing yourself to stay as far behind as possible is bloody difficult to do consistently. As challenging as any widdling exercise (IMO).

[Conan]

[quote name='Wil' post='839640' date='May 17 2010, 11:59 AM']Playing behind would be hitting it at 2 o'clock.[/quote]

Yup. That would be me. About two hours behind the beat!

[Pete Academy]

Listen and play along to this track for a good while:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNDRs0Iiv6Y"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNDRs0Iiv6Y[/url]

It's a perfect example of playing behind the beat. Quite tricky.

[Wil]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='840482' date='May 18 2010, 07:59 AM']Good god man, have you been reading my posts?

The way I see it, there's a 'pocket' which is however far in front or behind the beat you can get away with without totally ballsing up the rest of the band. I tend to play on the beat but prefer to play behind. Forcing yourself to stay as far behind as possible is bloody difficult to do consistently. As challenging as any widdling exercise (IMO).[/quote]

Funnily enough, it was a drummer from New Zealand I once knew who introduced the idea to me. Must me a Kiwi thing!

[chris_b]

It's a New Orleans thing....

[Beneath It All]

Commonly referred to as sitting 'in the crack'

[crez5150]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='840572' date='May 18 2010, 10:02 AM']Listen and play along to this track for a good while:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNDRs0Iiv6Y"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNDRs0Iiv6Y[/url]

It's a perfect example of playing behind the beat. Quite tricky.[/quote]


Sorry but I watched that video 3 times so far.... after about 30 seconds I seem to miss the music completely.....

Edited May 18, 2010 by crez5150

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='crez5150' post='841177' date='May 18 2010, 05:41 PM']Sorry but I watched that video 3 times so far.... every time I seem to miss the music completely.....[/quote]

How do you mean?

[crez5150]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='841178' date='May 18 2010, 05:42 PM']How do you mean?[/quote]


See my edited post

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='crez5150' post='841180' date='May 18 2010, 05:43 PM']See my edited post [/quote]

[crez5150]

Just me that gets distracted by that babe then.....

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='crez5150' post='841184' date='May 18 2010, 05:46 PM']Just me that gets distracted by that babe then.....[/quote]

I never watched the video. It was just the first example I found.

[crez5150]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='841186' date='May 18 2010, 05:47 PM'] I never watched the video. It was just the first example I found. [/quote]

Man watch it all the way through......

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='crez5150' post='841188' date='May 18 2010, 05:48 PM']Man watch it all the way through...... [/quote]

The people at my local car wash don't look like that.

[crez5150]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='841193' date='May 18 2010, 05:51 PM']The people at my local car wash don't look like that. [/quote]

Man if they did..... I'd have the cleanest car ever..... Great tune though!

[Stylon Pilson]

Smooth jazz indeed. I'll watch it again later when I'm alone, I think.

S.P.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Beedster' post='840479' date='May 18 2010, 07:51 AM']Guys, many thanks for the above. Given what you've all said I've either misread Anthony Jackson or he's talking in overly complex terms about something that's quite simple. Unfortunately, the I don't have the book with me to check but I will be able to do so later in the week. Either way, although I think I had the idea right, I was still at something of a loss as to any difference in feel between the three styles, so Bilbo and Jake, many thanks for the examples, I'll take a listen to them.

Cheers

Chris[/quote]

Someone who knew/knows him and worked with him said to me that AJ was the eternal student in his quest for playing. I think that describes him quite well judging by his interviews.

I really love his playing and think he pretty much wrote the book on the 5/6 string in the groove... I can't really read his interviews for long though..

Edited May 18, 2010 by JTUK

[xilddx]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='840572' date='May 18 2010, 10:02 AM']Listen and play along to this track for a good while:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNDRs0Iiv6Y"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNDRs0Iiv6Y[/url]

It's a perfect example of playing behind the beat. Quite tricky.[/quote]
Oh gosh. The awful video (which makes even "Put 'em on the Glass" shimmer with credibility) aside, I found the bass to be both uncomfortable to listen to and the timing is responsible. Behind, ahead and on the beat, but without any real point, it had no groove or make much musical sense to me. Live I can understand, but not recorded. When the bass was on the beat it sounded best to me. Most of the time I like bass on the beat.

Sorry Pete.



Some examples of live reggae dub in all pockets - Linton Kwesi Johnson.

Ahead (most of the time, settles back a bit in the choruses)



On (most of the time)



Just Behind (near the end you can hear the drums speed up a bit and the bass starts to get just ahead, then falls back slowly but still goes ahead occasionally)

Edited May 18, 2010 by silddx