Playing behind, on or ahead of the beat?

[Marvin]

[quote name='crez5150' post='841177' date='May 18 2010, 05:41 PM']Sorry but I watched that video 3 times so far.... after about 30 seconds I seem to miss the music completely.....[/quote]
And T&T has always been the respectable end of 'town'.

Tend to agree with silddx, the bass is uncomfortable to listen to.

[Ian Savage]

I find I don't tend to play behind or ahead for a whole song (then again, I do play rock and/or blues almost exclusively) but find myself playing on the beat and sort of 'pushing into' or 'hanging back from' particular chords for an effect. Of course, at least one other person in the band's got to be with you on that

[dudewheresmybass]

the only problem i find with changing the position you play relative to the beat is that with an inexperienced drummist, they end up either speeding up or slowing thinking that they are behind or ahead - whichever is appropriate!

[JTUK]

It is all on the drummer, I think..you can't fight it...or really don't want to.

I nearly always prefer a lazy behind feel... but some tracks just don't need it.
I'd want a drummer who would and could do both, but then you really are talking drummers.
If they ony had one, then backbeat for me..I feel more empathy there..

If you get a guy in front...it is easier to sound rushed or frantic.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='Marvin' post='841298' date='May 18 2010, 07:47 PM'] And T&T has always been the respectable end of 'town'.

Tend to agree with silddx, the bass is uncomfortable to listen to. [/quote]

I see what you mean, but to me it sounds right for the tune and feels natural whenever I play it.

[lowdown]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='840572' date='May 18 2010, 10:02 AM']Listen and play along to this track for a good while:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNDRs0Iiv6Y"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNDRs0Iiv6Y[/url]

It's a perfect example of playing behind the beat. Quite tricky.[/quote]


Although i have always liked that track.....
I have always thought that the Bass line lacked swing [ i dont mean as in walking lines ]
But that bouncy swing 16's that AJ is great at. [And all the other greats for that matter]
The Bass player is playing it very straight and rigid, regardless of behind[relaxed] or in front [pushing] of the beat.
Even more so as the track starts to progress.




Garry

Edited May 19, 2010 by lowdown

[The Funk]

Behind. Don't even try it. Every non-New Orleans band I've seen makes it sound flat, lifeless and boring.

The Meters - [i]Cissy Strut[/i]

Edited May 19, 2010 by The Funk

[Marvin]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='841682' date='May 19 2010, 08:40 AM']I see what you mean, but to me it sounds right for the tune and feels natural whenever I play it.[/quote]

Perhaps it's just not my thing.

[xilddx]

[quote name='The Funk' post='842350' date='May 19 2010, 06:34 PM']Behind. Don't even try it. Every non-New Orleans band I've seen makes it sound flat, lifeless and boring.

The Meters - [i]Cissy Strut[/i]

[/quote]
That is amazing. THAT has serious groove and panache. THAT is a massive hip hop inspiration. Fabulous mate. All the instruments are contributing to what feels really laid back and very urgent at the same time. It's magic.

[Pete Academy]

Work this out...a track by War. Magical.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsJWWN6dChs"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsJWWN6dChs[/url]

[Pete Academy]

For me, the term 'you are what you eat' translates in bass playing terms to 'you are what you listen to'. For most of my bass playing life I've listened to soul and funk, therefore I always tend to syncopate everything I play to make it sound funky. As a result, I'm sh*t at playing rock stuff. I've played in bands where the set list consists of everything from rock to reggae, but I naturally try to make it sound like me.

I never usually think about if the groove is in front or behind the beat...it just comes out the way I feel.

With enough gigging and practice, you should be able to suss this sort of thing automatically.

[lowdown]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='842518' date='May 19 2010, 08:54 PM']I never usually think about if the groove is in front or behind the beat...it just comes out the way I feel.[/quote]


I think this is what happens, when these players we are all refering to Record.
They just play, thats what they are and what they do.
I can not think they would wake up one morning and think ,behind today, infront tomorrow.
They just do what comes natural to them.
And i like to think we all do that.Other wise surely it all just becomes non Musical. [well to me anyway]


Garry

[keeponehandloose]

I think of it as the " B of the Bang" thing that runners do.
When in the blocks at the start of a race,they aim to go on the B of the Bang that the gun makes.

[XB26354]

It's funny, to my ears none of these examples are actually behind or ahead of the beat. The smooth jazz groove was dead on, and the drums are playing straight 8ths whilst the bass plays swung 16ths. All the other tracks are in time for the genre, but I feel that this ahead, on, behind business is misleading. Some of you guys perhaps felt that the smooth jazz groove was uncomfortable because of the kick on the + of beat 2 sounding out with the last swung 16th on the bass. They're both in time, it just sounds odd because of the crossover of the two different pulses. The only track I can remember where the beat is actually late is in the middle of Weather Report's "A Remark You Made", but then at least the whole band are late on the quarter pulse!

[The Funk]

[quote name='silddx' post='842453' date='May 19 2010, 07:56 PM']That is amazing. THAT has serious groove and panache. THAT is a massive hip hop inspiration. Fabulous mate. All the instruments are contributing to what feels really laid back and very urgent at the same time. It's magic.[/quote]

I need to burn you some CDs mate. Fill you in on some of the older stuff you might have missed.

[xilddx]

[quote name='XB26354' post='842683' date='May 19 2010, 11:35 PM']It's funny, to my ears none of these examples are actually behind or ahead of the beat. The smooth jazz groove was dead on, and the drums are playing straight 8ths whilst the bass plays swung 16ths. All the other tracks are in time for the genre, but I feel that this ahead, on, behind business is misleading. Some of you guys perhaps felt that the smooth jazz groove was uncomfortable because of the kick on the + of beat 2 sounding out with the last swung 16th on the bass. They're both in time, it just sounds odd because of the crossover of the two different pulses. The only track I can remember where the beat is actually late is in the middle of Weather Report's "A Remark You Made", but then at least the whole band are late on the quarter pulse![/quote]
TBH, I tend to agree with you. It's all a bit arbitrary to me. The LKJ examples I posted I don't really think are deliberate. I think it's simply how the bassist felt at the time. A live drummer can't play perfectly in time so hitting a note a fraction ahead or behind is largely chance. I've tried playing ahead and behind, often with disastrous results. I always try to play on the beat and only the feel dictates wheather I feel like hanging back or giving it some urgency. It's rarely my own technique, it's almost subliminal.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='842518' date='May 19 2010, 08:54 PM']For me, the term 'you are what you eat' translates in bass playing terms to 'you are what you listen to'. For most of my bass playing life I've listened to soul and funk, therefore I always tend to syncopate everything I play to make it sound funky. As a result, I'm sh*t at playing rock stuff. I've played in bands where the set list consists of everything from rock to reggae, but I naturally try to make it sound like me.

I never usually think about if the groove is in front or behind the beat...it just comes out the way I feel.

With enough gigging and practice, you should be able to suss this sort of thing automatically.[/quote]


But this is a good place to be...IMV, because it sounds like you and you have this certain style going across genres.
Of course, you might hit gigs where they don't want what you do...but then you probably don't have the empathy for them to want to bother anyway..

[Sean]

I understand playing [i]ahead of[/i], [i]behind[/i] and [i]on [/i]the beat but if the drummer is playing [i]ahead of[/i] or [i]behind[/i] the beat, how is the beat defined? i.e. where is it? I'm guessing that it's the "natural silent click track of the universe"? And, if the drummer is ahead of or behind the beat, should I play relative to the drummer or the beat? Surely, if everyone in the band is playing (the same amount) behind the beat then it becomes [i]on the beat[/i]?

I'm also guessing that we're now into the vagaries of "the pocket" and as long as it works then all's well?

[Fat Rich]

[quote name='Sean' post='848155' date='May 26 2010, 07:53 AM']I understand playing [i]ahead of[/i], [i]behind[/i] and [i]on [/i]the beat but if the drummer is playing [i]ahead of[/i] or [i]behind[/i] the beat, how is the beat defined? i.e. where is it? I'm guessing that it's the "natural silent click track of the universe"? And, if the drummer is ahead of or behind the beat, should I play relative to the drummer or the beat? Surely, if everyone in the band is playing (the same amount) behind the beat then it becomes [i]on the beat[/i]?

I'm also guessing that we're now into the vagaries of "the pocket" and as long as it works then all's well?[/quote]

Taking a simple 8th note beat for example, the basic time is defined by the ride cymbal or the hats. Then some drummers will play the snare bang on but lay back a tiny bit on the bass drum, other drummers will play the bass drum in time and lay back on the snare. Or any combination of pushing / playing on time / laying back on either the snare, bass drum or both. Add in many drummers have their own personal feeling of swing and that's why no two drummers will sound the same even playing the simplest of grooves.

A great drummer will do all this with confidence and consistency and with a feel for what the song requires, an ordinary drummer will usually change their feel slightly depending on what the rest of the band is doing, his mood etc.

With a great drummer you probably won't have to think about where you place your notes, if you start thinking about pushing / laying back you might end up doing it too much. With an ordinary drummer it might not be worth even thinking about, just try and keep everything together safe in the knowledge that no one in the crowd will notice the difference!

Edited May 26, 2010 by Fat Rich

[Lord Sausage]

This is too much thought. You just play it, feel it.

[Wil]

You've got a point there

[OutToPlayJazz]

Basically, some drummers will sit behind the beat just a touch and others will push it on - Usually with the snare hits or fills being too hasty. I only know one drummer who sits on the beat like a metronome & that's Neil Bullock from the Birmingham area. He really is like a human atomic clock.

So this is why it's necessary for a bass player to drive the band. Not only do singers and wind/brass players aurally pitch from the bass, but the bass player needs to drive the band along and give a feeling of forward motion, or it will usually grind down in speed a little.

There's another school of thought that says bass frequencies are slower to bounce off things, so the bass player needs to be slightly ahead of the beat, anticipating it. This mainly comes from classical double bass circles, but I don't particularly go with this one. I prefer to feel where the beat should be by listening to what's going on around me & place the note bang in the middle of the beat, where it should be.

I know other very good pro drummers who will rush and I can feel that I have to pull them back a bit. This is why I love playing to click tracks. It makes all this sooo easy!

[Marvin]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='849737' date='May 27 2010, 08:05 PM']Basically, some drummers will sit behind the beat just a touch and others will push it on - Usually with the snare hits or fills being too hasty. I only know one drummer who sits on the beat like a metronome & that's Neil Bullock from the Birmingham area. He really is like a human atomic clock.

So this is why it's necessary for a bass player to drive the band. Not only do singers and wind/brass players aurally pitch from the bass, but the bass player needs to drive the band along and give a feeling of forward motion, or it will usually grind down in speed a little.

There's another school of thought that says bass frequencies are slower to bounce off things, so the bass player needs to be slightly ahead of the beat, anticipating it. This mainly comes from classical double bass circles, but I don't particularly go with this one. I prefer to feel where the beat should be by listening to what's going on around me & place the note bang in the middle of the beat, where it should be.

I know other very good pro drummers who will rush and I can feel that I have to pull them back a bit. This is why I love playing to click tracks. It makes all this sooo easy! [/quote]


[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='849738' date='May 27 2010, 08:06 PM']Basically, some drummers will sit behind the beat just a touch and others will push it on - Usually with the snare hits or fills being too hasty. I only know one drummer who sits on the beat like a metronome & that's Neil Bullock from the Birmingham area. He really is like a human atomic clock.

So this is why it's necessary for a bass player to drive the band. Not only do singers and wind/brass players aurally pitch from the bass, but the bass player needs to drive the band along and give a feeling of forward motion, or it will usually grind down in speed a little.

There's another school of thought that says bass frequencies are slower to bounce off things, so the bass player needs to be slightly ahead of the beat, anticipating it. This mainly comes from classical double bass circles, but I don't particularly go with this one. I prefer to feel where the beat should be by listening to what's going on around me & place the note bang in the middle of the beat, where it should be.

I know other very good pro drummers who will rush and I can feel that I have to pull them back a bit. This is why I love playing to click tracks. It makes all this sooo easy! [/quote]

Good post OTPJ, but a little excessive posting it twice, don't you think?

[OutToPlayJazz]

[quote name='Marvin' post='849742' date='May 27 2010, 08:11 PM']Good post OTPJ, but a little excessive posting it twice, don't you think? [/quote]

Hahaha! I hadn't realised I'd done that - The server froze on me at the time.

[51m0n]

[quote name='Sean' post='848155' date='May 26 2010, 07:53 AM']I understand playing [i]ahead of[/i], [i]behind[/i] and [i]on [/i]the beat but if the drummer is playing [i]ahead of[/i] or [i]behind[/i] the beat, how is the beat defined? i.e. where is it? I'm guessing that it's the "natural silent click track of the universe"? And, if the drummer is ahead of or behind the beat, should I play relative to the drummer or the beat? Surely, if everyone in the band is playing (the same amount) behind the beat then it becomes [i]on the beat[/i]?

I'm also guessing that we're now into the vagaries of "the pocket" and as long as it works then all's well?[/quote]


Time for some more Betty Davis I think.

The drummer here is (to me at least) swinging behind the beat. Which is damned hard to explain, but he feels sooooo laaaazzzzyyyyyyy

Whilst Mr L. Graham is on the dot for the verse groove and a smidge behind for the stab fill (again this is how it feels to me)



And Silddx, mate, if you havent heard the Meters, where have you been baby???

Edited May 27, 2010 by 51m0n