Vintage Bass buying guide?

[john_the_bass]

is there a vintage bass buying guide anywhere or is there an idea to compile one and sticky it?

I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to contribute as I know bugger all about them, but I would hope to be in the market for one in the not too distant and would like to know what to look for - i'm sure others would be grateful for its existence.

I think something that would include the glaringly obvious things to look out for and also stuff that it helps to know when looking at vintage basses would be useful.
Cheers

[i]edit:[/i] also, what do you think about adding a piece on there which shows approximate values of basses and what additions/modifications do to value - ie if a jazz has a replacement pickguard.

Edited November 20, 2007 by john_the_bass

[David Nimrod]

Really good idea - I'd be fairly nervous buying a 70's Fender on eBay.

I did it once (a '79 Precision) and I did really well, but I was lucky...

I'd like to know how to spot the really obvious dodgy basses out there.

I mean it's fairly easy to partly construct a 'vintage Fender' isn't it?

[Toasted]

99str is the only man for this.

[paul, the]

Bound to be something [url="http://www.vintageguitars.org.uk/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=5&sid=dd6148929aa43dd1eceff3a2187bc58f"]here[/url].

[The Burpster]

To start with is the Blue Book, which if you've never heard of it is like a Glasses guide (the equivilent for cars) for guitars and basses. From an identity and value point of view this is essential.

From there its case of tracking down someone whos lived and played with one....... Hence the 'Basses you've owned' thread in the stickies above. Lots of comments on there, and hundreds of basses owned by all of us..... Someone will have had one...

I'm not sure there are any blanket warnings that can be attached to buying vintage, as there are too many factors involved in the decision to buy one. GAS is a terrible thing and can be like beer goggles.

My advice for what its worth, learn as much about the subject of your desire before you start to look, and then ask a few folks that have had 'em, ask them for pitfalls...... (as you may get 1" its utter 5hite", and 5 "Awesomes" from different owners)

If its a pit fall that you can live with...i.e. 'Great bass but the electrics, were put togheter by a Filipino lady boy on 32cents an hour' AND electrical issues are a cinch to you, then that may not be a factor to put you off....

Do you see where I'm coming from?

[Musky]

There was some talk of doing a wiki for 70's Fenders just before Basstalk ended, with someone (I can't remember who) offering to kick the whole thing off. It seems like a good time to resurrect the idea.

[john_the_bass]

what I'm interested to see is not how they are to live with (there's only one way to find out and most of the time, it's down to personal opinion on something like that), but how to avoid buying a dog.

There's only so much on the Fender website which allows you to date a guitar. I'd like to know what effect replacement parts has on value all the way from strap buttons to pickups. Does swapping out an original bridge for a badass and then changing it back to an original bridge again, which leaves marks and mounting holes from the badass have any affect?
Not all bad basses bark at you when you spot them and sometimes you get bitten on the arse sometime later.

That kind of thing really.

[Musky]

[quote name='john_the_bass' post='92605' date='Nov 22 2007, 11:11 AM']what I'm interested to see is not how they are to live with (there's only one way to find out and most of the time, it's down to personal opinion on something like that), but how to avoid buying a dog.

There's only so much on the Fender website which allows you to date a guitar. I'd like to know what effect replacement parts has on value all the way from strap buttons to pickups. Does swapping out an original bridge for a badass and then changing it back to an original bridge again, which leaves marks and mounting holes from the badass have any affect?
Not all bad basses bark at you when you spot them and sometimes you get bitten on the arse sometime later.

That kind of thing really.[/quote]

I don't think it's possible to make an exact science on valuing a bass solely on a part by part basis - it should be regarded as a whole. You could factor in the cost of buying a genuine period correct replacement, but I don't think that would accurately reflect the value of the instrument. A metallic pink refinish would probably lower the price of a bass more than an olympic white one, and an after market tortoiseshell guard might well find more fans than a damaged original. It can be a hard job to put a price on mojo.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Musky' post='92656' date='Nov 22 2007, 12:10 PM']I don't think it's possible to make an exact science on valuing a bass solely on a part by part basis - it should be regarded as a whole. You could factor in the cost of buying a genuine period correct replacement, but I don't think that would accurately reflect the value of the instrument. A metallic pink refinish would probably lower the price of a bass more than an olympic white one, and an after market tortoiseshell guard might well find more fans than a damaged original. It can be a hard job to put a price on mojo.[/quote]

+1 - there's not a structure, or a scale.

Basically, the value of a modded vintage Fender is down to how much someone will pay for it. No more, no less.

Keep your eye on completed auctions on eBay. That'll give you an idea.

[john_the_bass]

I agree with both of the last posts and the value of anything is down to how much it's worth to you as a buyer, but is there a case that says "well a late 70s Jazz is worth between 1200 and 1400 quid (for example) but that ones had the pickups replaced so I'd knock 100 quid off for that?

or am i just saying the same things differently?!

[Musky]

[quote name='john_the_bass' post='92663' date='Nov 22 2007, 12:21 PM']I agree with both of the last posts and the value of anything is down to how much it's worth to you as a buyer, but is there a case that says "well a late 70s Jazz is worth between 1200 and 1400 quid (for example) but that ones had the pickups replaced so I'd knock 100 quid off for that?

or am i just saying the same things differently?! [/quote]

I think there's a case for that but other buyers might disagree, especially if they really liked the replacement pickups. The difficulty comes with how much of a premium the buyer puts on originality. An early nineties jazz with SD's might fetch more than a stock item, but at some point in the future originality will start to become more important to collectors. Exactly when that time comes is anybody's guess.

You also seem to get a tipping point, when condition or originality ceases to become so much of an issue. A battered non-original probably wouldn't attract the attention of collectors but still be of interest to players. In that case restoring the bass would probably far more than you could get for it in the restored condition. It wouldn't fetch as much as one in good condition (obviously), but it probably wouldn't be devalued by as much as the cost of replacing the parts.

[bassaussie]

[quote name='john_the_bass' post='92663' date='Nov 22 2007, 12:21 PM']I agree with both of the last posts and the value of anything is down to how much it's worth to you as a buyer, but is there a case that says "well a late 70s Jazz is worth between 1200 and 1400 quid (for example) but that ones had the pickups replaced so I'd knock 100 quid off for that?

or am i just saying the same things differently?! [/quote]

I own a number of old Fenders, and have also had quite a few through my hands. That doesn't make me an expert, but I'll share with you how I approach it.

First, what the guys are saying above is correct - there's no fixed guide, it's really a matter of keeping in touch with the market.

What I will say, though, is that when it comes to modifications on a bass, some have more impact than others with regards to price, so I thought I'd try and break that down for you. If any of the real vintgae experts what to add to what I say (or, for that matter, simply correct me!!!) then I'd welcome the additions.

I think that you can break mods into two categories - those that can be reversed, and those that can't.

[u]Reversible[/u]

If a bass has changed hardware or electronics, this is all reversible (to a certain extent - read on). If a pickguard has been swapped over, there's always a chance that you can find a replacement. Same with pickups, pots, neck plate, bridge, tuners, screws, thumb rest, string guide, strap buttons (I think I included everything!). However, there's two things to consider here.

[list=1]
[*]Those parts a become increasingly expensive, as the market knows they may be the difference between an upgraded bass, and one that is "all original". Pickups and pickguards are especially expensive, but basically any of these parts will set you back far more than buying a modern replacement.
[*]When it comes to pickups and electronics, there's also the issue of "original" soldering to consider. The reason it's important is because it goes some way to indicating that the bass isn't a "parts bass" - that it's not a bass that's made up of various parts that a seller may've put together, plus it's a simple test for whether the bass may be a refin. This mentality probably originated with original Les Paul Standards and L Series and pre-L Strats, but as the vintage market has pushed things like stack knob Jazzes and custom colour L series basses into the 10,000 plus bracket, people (ie. collectors) are becoming more choosy about what they part with their cash for.
[/list]

[u]Non-Reversible[/u]

This is where the bass has been modified in such a way that you can't get it back to it's original state. Refins, body routing and fretless conversion are probably the most common, but since a lot of the instruments originated in a time when mind altering drugs were pretty popular, the sky is definitely the limit!

Of the sorts of mods we're taking about, I tend to think that a refin, when well done, is probably the least offensive (for want of a better word). Basically, the bass is still as it was intended, just with a different colour.

As for the others, anything that involves altering the structure of the instrument is going to have a huge impact on value, and really, it's destroyed a lot of the collectable value. Body routing, neck modifications, new fingerboards, and anything else that involves cutting into or altering the basic structure of the instrument.

One thing I'd add is a refret. I've heard different views on this. Some people advertise the fact that their instrument has the original frets, and I guess it's a desirable quality if the frets are still in decent condition. However, I've heard it suggested that frets tend to be considered as a part of the instrument that will need to be maintained and changed at times (I guess in the same way as strings), and that provided the refret was done professionally, and that (again) it maintains the original character of the instrument, it can be considered simply as instrument maintenance, and not as a modification. Again, it's the buyer who'll make this call.

[99ster]

[quote name='bassaussie' post='93938' date='Nov 24 2007, 09:00 PM']I own a number of old Fenders, and have also had quite a few through my hands. That doesn't make me an expert, but I'll share with you how I approach it.

First, what the guys are saying above is correct - there's no fixed guide, it's really a matter of keeping in touch with the market.

What I will say, though, is that when it comes to modifications on a bass, some have more impact than others with regards to price, so I thought I'd try and break that down for you. If any of the real vintgae experts what to add to what I say (or, for that matter, simply correct me!!!) then I'd welcome the additions.

I think that you can break mods into two categories - those that can be reversed, and those that can't.

[u]Reversible[/u]

If a bass has changed hardware or electronics, this is all reversible (to a certain extent - read on). If a pickguard has been swapped over, there's always a chance that you can find a replacement. Same with pickups, pots, neck plate, bridge, tuners, screws, thumb rest, string guide, strap buttons (I think I included everything!). However, there's two things to consider here.

[list=1]
[*]Those parts a become increasingly expensive, as the market knows they may be the difference between an upgraded bass, and one that is "all original". Pickups and pickguards are especially expensive, but basically any of these parts will set you back far more than buying a modern replacement.
[*]When it comes to pickups and electronics, there's also the issue of "original" soldering to consider. The reason it's important is because it goes some way to indicating that the bass isn't a "parts bass" - that it's not a bass that's made up of various parts that a seller may've put together, plus it's a simple test for whether the bass may be a refin. This mentality probably originated with original Les Paul Standards and L Series and pre-L Strats, but as the vintage market has pushed things like stack knob Jazzes and custom colour L series basses into the 10,000 plus bracket, people (ie. collectors) are becoming more choosy about what they part with their cash for.
[/list]

[u]Non-Reversible[/u]

This is where the bass has been modified in such a way that you can't get it back to it's original state. Refins, body routing and fretless conversion are probably the most common, but since a lot of the instruments originated in a time when mind altering drugs were pretty popular, the sky is definitely the limit!

Of the sorts of mods we're taking about, I tend to think that a refin, when well done, is probably the least offensive (for want of a better word). Basically, the bass is still as it was intended, just with a different colour.

As for the others, anything that involves altering the structure of the instrument is going to have a huge impact on value, and really, it's destroyed a lot of the collectable value. Body routing, neck modifications, new fingerboards, and anything else that involves cutting into or altering the basic structure of the instrument.

One thing I'd add is a refret. I've heard different views on this. Some people advertise the fact that their instrument has the original frets, and I guess it's a desirable quality if the frets are still in decent condition. However, I've heard it suggested that frets tend to be considered as a part of the instrument that will need to be maintained and changed at times (I guess in the same way as strings), and that provided the refret was done professionally, and that (again) it maintains the original character of the instrument, it can be considered simply as instrument maintenance, and not as a modification. Again, it's the buyer who'll make this call.[/quote]

+1.
That's all good stuff - an [b]excellent[/b] summary!

I could add that a good general price guide for refinished vintage instruments is that they are worth half of the value of an identical guitar/bass - this is how the dealers value them. And why it's always worth thinking VERY carefully before re-finishing a vintage guitar, no matter how worn the paint looks.

Some missing parts are incredibly expensive - especially early 50's & early 60's all celluloid pickguards as many of them deteriorated badly over the years.
(Also stack knob Jazz bass controls - the last set on eBay sold for $2.5K. I suspect this was because they could be used by a dealer to 'upgrade' a 3 control '61 Jazz to a far more valuable '61 stack knob Jazz.)

[99ster]

[quote name='Toasted' post='91622' date='Nov 20 2007, 05:15 PM']99str is the only man for this.[/quote]

Thanks Joe...
For whatever it's worth - & if I can help at all - I'm always happy to give my opinion on any vintage Fender basses (60's to early 70's) to anyone looking to buy one...
But - there's also a load of other guys on here who know plenty more than me I'm sure!

[notable9]

Good pics are the key to buying vintage.

I bought my 71 P bass off Ebay. It had been badly routed under the pickguard and the seller took some great pics of the offending detail. When I got it I checked it over and found a couple of extra probs, but for the money and knowing it had been chopped I was happy. But if your not sure, get extra pics taken and if they wont then forget it.
Note.