Overplaying parts?

[tylerlangan]

Hi all,

I've recently been going through a weird time with my playing in band situations lately, I've been playing for about two and a half years and have taken lessons for around the last six months (and thoroughly enjoying them!) and have learnt all the theory I've been taught and tried my best to apply it to my playing.

The first band I was in I could barely play at all so just rooted 8ths at a steady rhythm was enough of a challenge! I then joined a more straight up rock band with two guitars and found myself playing anything I could to be heard above the racket that those two were busy making =D

The band I find myself in currently is far more laid back with a female lead singer with a very soul voice and a single guitar and drummer... during the last practice I found myself torn between playing some more complicated runs and so on or simply trying to find a good simple groove and supporting the song.

Every time I found myself doing a difficult run I felt insincere and as if I was showboating akin to the 'every song must have six solos' guitarists that plague music. Yet every time I simplified to just grooving along I felt like there was so much more I could be doing...

I know theres some real seasoned pro's on here whos playing I really admire and I'd be really curious to here about what you guys think to overplaying parts? Is it a matter of 'whats best for the song' and how does one decide this, as 'best' becomes very subjective as I'd gladly listen to a great bassist in a rubbish band when Im sure average-joe-gig-goer wouldn't.


So is it better to stick to the groove or to get a bit more complex, what do you reckon?


Peace.

Tyler

[chris_b]

In my opinion, unless you're in the Motown house band, overplaying is worse than underplaying.

[Kiwi]

Larry nails this topic on the one. Great demo, he's an awesome groove player. Its all about balance.

[bassbloke]

It's understandible. You've picked up a load of new skills and techniques and you're keen to show them off. I'm not being patronising when I say that I used to be just the same. In one band I used to be in, I used to overplay so much it was offensive.

I would counter that overplaying os worse than underplaying. By underplaying you're not adding anything to the song. When you verplay you detract from the song.

[hogman]

[quote name='tylerlangan' post='92302' date='Nov 21 2007, 07:17 PM']Hi all,

I've recently been going through a weird time with my playing in band situations lately, I've been playing for about two and a half years and have taken lessons for around the last six months (and thoroughly enjoying them!) and have learnt all the theory I've been taught and tried my best to apply it to my playing.

The first band I was in I could barely play at all so just rooted 8ths at a steady rhythm was enough of a challenge! I then joined a more straight up rock band with two guitars and found myself playing anything I could to be heard above the racket that those two were busy making =D

The band I find myself in currently is far more laid back with a female lead singer with a very soul voice and a single guitar and drummer... during the last practice I found myself torn between playing some more complicated runs and so on or simply trying to find a good simple groove and supporting the song.

Every time I found myself doing a difficult run I felt insincere and as if I was showboating akin to the 'every song must have six solos' guitarists that plague music. Yet every time I simplified to just grooving along I felt like there was so much more I could be doing...

I know theres some real seasoned pro's on here whos playing I really admire and I'd be really curious to here about what you guys think to overplaying parts? Is it a matter of 'whats best for the song' and how does one decide this, as 'best' becomes very subjective as I'd gladly listen to a great bassist in a rubbish band when Im sure average-joe-gig-goer wouldn't.


So is it better to stick to the groove or to get a bit more complex, what do you reckon?


Peace.

Tyler[/quote]


sounds old and boring but every cake needs its icing (or does it) not everbody likes icing what you have to do is find out what icing your cake needs for it to taste the best n if its not the icing are they are after it may be a diffrent cake.

I would listen to the players that are respected in the style you are trying to emulate in the band your in, that is of course if you are the songwriter then you may alreay have your own voice that you wish to project.

I feel listening to loads of great bass players there is a few.... solid Cliff Williams. Busy Rocco. Busy Steve Harris... the right part Tony Levin. Great feel Pino. Keep it together and busy as hell Mister Entwistle. John Pattituci just right for whats needed upright with and orchetra or six string widdle mit der jazz. By itself Mister manring.... where do you stop.

[guitarnbass]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='92315' date='Nov 21 2007, 07:34 PM']

Larry nails this topic on the one. Great demo, he's an awesome groove player. Its all about balance.[/quote]

so right on!!

[Jase]

It can be quite easy to overplay, what's really challenging is melodically complimenting everything else that's going on.

[queenofthedepths]

When I joined my 2nd band I got a bit of an ego trip coz they thought I was amazing (or maybe they were just saying that coz they'd auditioned loads of crap bassists or coz they desperately didn't want me to quit...) sooo I went completely crazy, adding my own special touch to everything... using the 24th fret on the G, a bit of cross-tapping, acoustic bass for no good reason, general absurdities - I'd only been playing for half a year so in retrospect, I wasn't particularly good at any of it anyway... whilst this may not have been hugely appropriate to the music we were playing, it certainly improved my confidence no end, and whilst I was at it I actually improved a lot and I forced myself to learn plenty of theory to back up what I was doing, all of which has come in a lot of use later on!
Basically what I'm saying is that pushing yourself to do whatever you can will improve you as a bassist, even if it's not ideal for the band - ask them for feedback though, and work with them to find something cool you can play - if you play lots of difficult stuff, you're bound to come up with one or two interesting things to actually include in a song - if you don't play anything exciting at all, you're not doing much to contribute to the song, are you? If you can't make a decision about whether to include a particular bit, ask your bandmates what they think of it! You're bound to get some valuable feedback, and useful advice

[jakenewmanbass]

IMO if you are going to speak up, its better to say something that counts rather than waffle and make no point. Likewise with playing, grooving is a solid statement, it can be interspersed with something more decorative at times but it will have much more impact if it really counts.
"Its better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"
Taste
Taste
Taste
and again
Taste
be tasteful
say little but make it count
Jake

[lee4]

Listen to the song without playing.That way you can assess where to lay back and where to rip it up!Ask the other band members for there opinion.Sometimes other musicians will come up with a great bass part that fits better than your own.

[Jase]

[quote name='lee4' post='92375' date='Nov 21 2007, 09:15 PM']Listen to the song without playing.That way you can assess where to lay back and where to rip it up!Ask the other band members for there opinion.Sometimes other musicians will come up with a great bass part that fits better than your own.[/quote]


Our guitar player has a habit of coming up with rather good bass parts, just little bits here and there but they make a hell of a difference and I've no problem with playing a part written by somebody else.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='lee4' post='92375' date='Nov 21 2007, 09:15 PM']Listen to the song without playing.That way you can assess where to lay back and where to rip it up!Ask the other band members for there opinion.Sometimes other musicians will come up with a great bass part that fits better than your own.[/quote]
sorry off topic!!
Hey Lee4 looking at your sig you must be a devotee of the Hogs Back Brewery
Jake

[jwbassman]

Keep it simple - make it groove

[Ou7shined]

There's a lot of good advice here but I say this - Good communication in writing partnerships is paramount but whatever you do, play it the way [b]you[/b] want to play it and if it don't fit go find a band where it does. Original music should be all about artistic expression and not about doing what you think others need or want to hear. We all have our own individual styles so why conform to someone else's idea of what you aught to be doing - unless were talking about taking constructive advice from a bass guru.... always listen to your guru.

[Jase]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='92466' date='Nov 21 2007, 11:53 PM']There's a lot of good advice here but I say this - Good communication in writing partnerships is paramount but whatever you do, play it the way [b]you[/b] want to play it and if it don't fit go find a band where it does. Original music should be all about artistic expression and not about doing what you think others need or want to hear. We all have our own individual styles so why conform to someone else's idea of what you aught to be doing - unless were talking about taking constructive advice from a bass guru.... always listen to your guru. [/quote]

Yes, I agree play what you think you should be playing but you also need to know if what you're playing is actually any good...( this isn't directed at ou7shined by the way I'm talking in general terms) some art it just complete toss and some playing is just stupid arrogance.

[Thunderthumbs]

When I first learnt how to slap the bass many years ago, I went mad, slapping in every song I could. The truth was, listening back to it, it was way way over the top, and in many cases sounded dreadful. This was simply because that's not what the song called for. Sometimes it really is important just to hold down a groove, even if that's a very simple, very straight 4/4 root note beat.

As I got older, I just matured. Now I play what I think is necessary, and try not step on other people's toes.

But if there's a gap, and you can add a little something, then why not.

[JD1]

Keep your powder dry - then when you do say something it will have more impact. I've always though John Deacon was a master at that. Also, don't think too much - go with the groove, use your ears and let anything you play go with the flow.

[Sean]

Carol Kaye said in one of here emails that she has a rule of doing a fill every eight bars if needed, otherwise stick to the groove. JD1's comment is spot on and this is what I try to do now after being guilty over some serious overplaying in the past

[tauzero]

[quote name='tylerlangan' post='92302' date='Nov 21 2007, 07:17 PM']The band I find myself in currently is far more laid back with a female lead singer with a very soul voice and a single guitar and drummer... during the last practice I found myself torn between playing some more complicated runs and so on or simply trying to find a good simple groove and supporting the song.

Every time I found myself doing a difficult run I felt insincere and as if I was showboating akin to the 'every song must have six solos' guitarists that plague music. Yet every time I simplified to just grooving along I felt like there was so much more I could be doing...[/quote]

Nowt wrong with doing something complex if it's adding to the song. Avoid tangling with anyone else, especially the vocals. Consider each song in isolation, don't just take a decision always to play one way or the other, and consider varying within each song to add dynamic to it. Listen to the drummer - a bass fill where there's no drum fill can sound a bit empty, drum and bass filling together makes the band seem tight. Don't be afraid to experiment.

[wulf]

It's impossible to say without hearing the band. The format (vox, guitar, drums and bass) leaves lots of room if the other two instrumentalists aren't overplaying but, just because there is a space, doesn't mean you necessarily have to fill it.

Two ideas which might help:

1. Contrast. Play some fancy stuff on some songs and lay right back on others. You can even do that between different sections of songs. Just make sure you leave plenty of space for the others to shine and make sure that your part makes them sound good too.

2. How about doing some backing vocals? That will immediately cause you to want the basslines to be very simple and will also add more variety to the sound. Even if you are not a patch on the skill of the main vocalist, you may well find something that enhances the overall sound.

Wulf

[DanOwens]

I work quite a lot with producers and songwriters that know what they want. Its got to the point where I can (most of the time) predict what they are going to ask for and do it before they ask, thereby reinforcing the idea that I'm offering value for my services (a key thing in such a cut-throat world).

Inevitably, what I always do is ask myself "Do I need to play this note?" about every single note I want to play. If the answer is 'no' or i'm unsure, I don't play it. I'm hired because I don't detract from what they already have: a song. I offer simplicity and a basic fattening-up of the sound they have.

Sure, when I'm playing improvised Drum & Bass I'll rip it up, but in a song situation, I'll play crotchet root unless it's really needed.

But yeah, I also know bassists and teachers that hate the fact I play in the first 5 frets most of the time, and they're still good.

Dan

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Jase' post='92493' date='Nov 22 2007, 01:09 AM']Yes, I agree play what you think you should be playing but you also need to know if what you're playing is actually any good...( this isn't directed at ou7shined by the way I'm talking in general terms) some art it just complete toss and some playing is just stupid arrogance.[/quote]

Agreed. I've never "got" Jackson Polock, I find it kind of pointless but there is some abstract expressionism that does appeal to me, regardless, there are people out there that will appreciate art right across the board. Flea is a good example of a busy busy player but latterly he has chilled. He can still technically come up with the goods but where he's at just now is not the same as Mothers Milk or BSSM. Neither is right or wrong.

[Jase]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='92666' date='Nov 22 2007, 12:26 PM']Agreed. I've never "got" Jackson Polock, I find it kind of pointless but there is some abstract expressionism that does appeal to me, regardless, there are people out there that will appreciate art right across the board. Flea is a good example of a busy busy player but latterly he has chilled. He can still technically come up with the goods but where he's at just now is not the same as Mothers Milk or BSSM. Neither is right or wrong.[/quote]

Yep, that's what I sort of mean, I'm not a RHCP fan but I've listened to Flea's playing and there isn't a note you'd change, it's all good, all right for the songs being played no matter how busy or simple he's playing, I don't think Flea's playing comes under toss or stupid arrogance You Tube is a good example of players who can sometimes come under that description though

[LukeFRC]

mani plays the simplist stuff but man with such a feel for rhythm. waterfall is so simple yet so perfect.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='TheBrokenDoor' post='92665' date='Nov 22 2007, 12:21 PM']Inevitably, what I always do is ask myself "Do I need to play this note?" about every single note I want to play. If the answer is 'no' or i'm unsure, I don't play it. I'm hired because I don't detract from what they already have: a song. I offer simplicity and a basic fattening-up of the sound they have.[/quote]
Thing that is really the challenge for me is timing, and I'm not talking about keeping up with the drummer. Its about choosing [b]when[/b] to play the right note. Jamerson, Larry Graham and Bernard Edwards are masters at this. It does my head in because there's no easy way to understand why they play what they played when they played it and yet Jamersons stuff does my head in when he deliberately chooses to play a note way off the beat. IT WORKS so beautifully - check out the phrasing he plays under the hook in 'Can't Hurry Love'. 'Reflections' by the Supremes or 'Heard It Through The Grapevine' by Marvin Gaye are also superb examples of how he uses space to twist the groove beyond what mere notes are capable of doing.

Jamerson is one of those players where I have to turn my 'what do I play' approach on its head, into 'what do I have to leave out'?