Ignorance

[Pete Academy]

Since buying my Fender Jazz our singer keeps asking me why I don't use it in our set instead of my five string. I told him I would, but I would have to detune on certain songs, as they feature basslines lower than E, and that, although I don't have to, I like to use lower notes in certain songs as it makes them sound a bit different and adds weight to certain sections. I ensure I don't overuse the low B, but it's present in some form on at least 10 songs.

Why, after 13 years of being in the same band as him, do I have to explain this?

Also, some time ago, when I asked our sound man what the bass rig would be on a shared gig, he said: 'Why? Bass is bass, isn't it?'

Further proof that we are just seen as the bloke at the back going 'dum-dum-dum'.

Edited May 25, 2010 by Pete Academy

[Jerry_B]

Perhaps proof instead that the guys you play with are a bit dim

Perhaps it's a genre thing? Perhaps different musical styles have a different approach to the bass player's role, and the perception of that?

[Pete Academy]

The fact is, I could use the Jazz, but it would mean the songs would sound different. Besides, do people think we spend all our hard-earned money to get the best gear and sound for nothing?

[gafbass02]

I too have found a massive amount of ignorance often tinged with a sort of patronising amusment towards the bass, noticeable when i try to explain things like how a bass wave behaves, how our ears are 'tuned for mids', how string tensions affects things etc etc.
(ie NO!! i dont want to tune down to blah blah, i spent hours getting my bass perfect at normal tuning, if i change it, it sounds and feels all wrong!)

Its like 'look at the cute failed guitarist trying to make his job sound more important' (which is another tag/assumption that gets my goat, I never wanted or tried, or was interested in playing guitar or anything else ive only ever wanted to play bass.)

I find bass a massively complex instrument with a difficult sound to understand and manipulate, its easy to learn, but hard to play well, and forms the link between rhythm and melody, giving the music its 'heartbeat'.

How many times must i get a 20 second riff at soundcheck compared the guitarists?,(before its, 'alright mate, OK ..guitars!) I have many different sounds too, many more extreme and potentially more difficult to manage in a mix than 'clean and distortion' that Jonny guitar hero over there has!, (synth, octaver) Why not think to ask Mr sound guy, and no, i dont want to use your £20 behringer DI box, i have a much better one thanks, and while were on it, how about a mic to mix in there too!
Recently in a studio i got just a nasty dry sound while they spent forever on amp/cab sims for the guitarists....hello!!!!!!!!!!, im here too!!!!!! When we got the result back, sure enough, the same totally unaltered tone, nothing done to spice it up at all.

This is why when i soundcheck i try to play harmonics, chords, melodic pieces, low notes, flurries, slap, and a nice funky finger line that uses a wide range, hoping the engineer will notice that i tend to play more than just 'dum dum dum', and think, 'oh hang on, this guy can clearly play and does a bit more, Ok, lets make sure its sitting right so we can hear it all', but nope. They give me 20 seconds and set the same woofy settings that they 'always use for bass cause it sounds best innit'

NO!!!! Im not supposed to be just an inaudible low end mush under the guitars, im an integral part of the shape and form of the song contruction, if I add subtle details its because it improves the music (not just to show off) and as a band we have decided thats what sounds good, so why should you as an engineer who has preconceived notions about how bass in rock bands should sound/be mixed/EQ'd be at liberty to so dramaticlly curtail my additions to our songs?, would the chorus work so well without that high chord being heard?, NO!, we like it!, else i would have left it out! etc etc

Rant over!!! (and yup ive done my time as a sound engineer too, but i just find on the whole the attitude to bass outdated beyond what it should be, esp when you consider that many of the guys out there werent around in the 'kay bass, 30w amp' days of yore, and even if they were, they still lived through the 80's with all the tech advances in bass and it coming to the fore, as well as the 90's and the likes of Flea et al, so WHY the 1950's/60's attitudes in the year 2010!!!!?!?)

Ok, rant def over this time!

Edited May 25, 2010 by gafbass02

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='gafbass02' post='847138' date='May 25 2010, 07:50 AM']I too have found a massive amount of ignorance often tinged with a sort of patronising amusment towards the bass, noticeable when i try to explain things like how a bass wave behaves, how our ears are 'tuned for mids', how string tensions affects things etc etc.
(ie NO!! i dont want to tune down to blah blah, i spent hours getting my bass perfect at normal tuning, if i change it, it sounds and feels all wrong!)

Its like 'look at the cute failed guitarist trying to make his job sound more important' (which is another tag/assumption that gets my goat, I never wanted or tried, or was interested in playing guitar or anything else ive only ever wanted to play bass.)

I find bass a massively complex instrument with a difficult sound to understand and manipulate, its easy to learn, but hard to play well, and forms the link between rhythm and melody, giving the music its 'heartbeat'.

How many times must i get a 20 second riff at soundcheck compared the guitarists?,(before its, 'alright mate, OK ..guitars!) I have many different sounds too, many more extreme and potentially more difficult to manage in a mix than 'clean and distortion' that Jonny guitar hero over there has!, (synth, octaver) Why not think to ask Mr sound guy, and no, i dont want to use your £20 behringer DI box, i have a much better one thanks, and while were on it, how about a mic to mix in there too!
Recently in a studio i got just a nasty dry sound while they spent forever on amp/cab sims for the guitarists....hello!!!!!!!!!!, im here too!!!!!! When we got the result back, sure enough, the same totally unaltered tone, nothing done to spice it up at all.

This is why when i soundcheck i try to play harmonics, chords, melodic pieces, low notes, flurries, slap, and a nice funky finger line that uses a wide range, hoping the engineer will notice that i tend to play more than just 'dum dum dum', and think, 'oh hang on, this guy can clearly play and does a bit more, Ok, lets make sure its sitting right so we can hear it all', but nope. They give me 20 seconds and set the same woofy settings that they 'always use for bass cause it sounds best innit'

NO!!!! Im not supposed to be just an inaudible low end mush under the guitars, im an integral part of the shape and form of the song contruction, if I add subtle details its because it improves the music (not just to show off) and as a band we have decided thats what sounds good, so why should you as an engineer who has preconceived notions about how bass in rock bands should sound/be mixed/ED'd be at liberty to so dramaticlly curtail my additions to our songs?, would the chorus work so well without that high chord being heard?, NO!, we like it!, else i would have left it out! etc etc

Rant over!!! (and yup ive done my time as a sound engineer too, but i just find on the whole the attitude to bass outdated beyond what it should be, esp when you consider that many of the guys out there werent around in the 'kay bass, 30w amp' days of yore, and even if they were, they still lived through the 80's with all the tech advances in bass and it coming to the fore, as well as the 90's and the likes of Flea et al, so WHY the 1950's/60's attitudes in the year 2010!!!!?!?)

Ok, rant def over this time!
[/quote]

Great post. Says it all.

[gafbass02]

um cheers, lol, im sure ill upset someone!, really didnt mean too if i do, i should just quickly add all IMHO, IME etc lol

[Conan]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='847140' date='May 25 2010, 07:57 AM']Great post. Says it all.[/quote]

Absolutely! Post of the month at the very least!! I feel ya pain brother!

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='gafbass02' post='847142' date='May 25 2010, 08:03 AM']um cheers, lol, im sure ill upset someone!, really didnt mean too if i do, i should just quickly add all IMHO, IME etc lol[/quote]

I don't think you'll upset anyone. You've told the truth. I also get the requisite 20 second soundcheck.

Also, the singer/guitarist uses a 335 but I never suggest he uses a Strat instead because I actually know the tonal difference. The 'bass is bass' mentality amongst other musicians seriously pisses me off.

[gafbass02]

:blush: cheers dude lol

[vmaxblues]

Good thread and a common issue for bass players. I was disgusted with that bloody series onthe box recently, 'im in a rock band', it had a show on the lead singer, a show on the lead guitarist, one on the drummer, and there was i waiting for the bass one, wrong! the next show was called 'the other ones', flaming typical, and had some ill informed 'celebrities' running down bass players......

such is our lot

[bigd1]

I think we are being a bit up ourselves. Yes we are musicians just as the rest of the band but at the studio/gig with a sound engineer just ask it really does work very well.
Isn't it good that other members of the group/band you are in are interested in what type of bass you use, and notice what you are or are not using. I feel it a bit odd you see this as a negative thing.
Maybe I have missed the point but I can't see what you have to moan about.

I do agree with you I was disappointed by the TV rock band show, but then again it is for the masses who are only really interested in the singer and lead guitarist they don't really want to know about the music makers of the band.

Just my 2p worth

Ta very glad BIGd

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='bigd1' post='847159' date='May 25 2010, 08:31 AM']I think we are being a bit up ourselves. Yes we are musicians just as the rest of the band but at the studio/gig with a sound engineer just ask it really does work very well.
Isn't it good that other members of the group/band you are in are interested in what type of bass you use, and notice what you are or are not using. I feel it a bit odd you see this as a negative thing.
Maybe I have missed the point but I can't see what you have to moan about.

I do agree with you I was disappointed by the TV rock band show, but then again it is for the masses who are only really interested in the singer and lead guitarist they don't really want to know about the music makers of the band.

Just my 2p worth

Ta very glad BIGd[/quote]

It's mainly the fact that after such a long time, they can't discern the difference between a four and five string. For example, the version of Josie we do is from their live album and the riff starts on a low D. This song has been played in the set from day one hundreds of times.

I don't really care if they don't dig my gear, but I do make a lot of effort to sound as good as possible.

Edited May 25, 2010 by Pete Academy

[OldGit]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='847131' date='May 25 2010, 07:15 AM']Since buying my Fender Jazz our singer keeps asking me why I don't use it in our set instead of my five string. I told him I would, but I would have to detune on certain songs, as they feature basslines lower than E, and that, although I don't have to, I like to use lower notes in certain songs as it makes them sound a bit different and adds weight to certain sections. I ensure I don't overuse the low B, but it's present in some form on at least 10 songs.

Why, after 13 years of being in the same band as him, do I have to explain this?

Also, some time ago, when I asked our sound man what the bass rig would be on a shared gig, he said: 'Why? Bass is bass, isn't it?'

Further proof that we are just seen as the bloke at the back going 'dum-dum-dum'.[/quote]

Well the singer bit sounds very positive. At least he asked you and you were able to give him an explanation. Hopefully he'll understand now.

I play in a band where two of the members also play bass in other bands but play guitar and guitar & keys in this one The drummer is genuinely interested in what I'm using each gig and can hear the differences. The other members just takes the p155 in a friendly way. In private they are interested in the differences but in public it's "take the p out of the bass player" time. I guess they suffer in their other bands I get my own back though.

PA people are another thing: [b]It's not their fault, it's yours [/b]

How are they supposed to know what you want to sound like if you don't talk to the PA person beforehand and explain.
Last I checked mind reading was not a normal skill for PA people. So a 20 second line check and womb womb womb is all you're going to get.

If you do approach them and ask for Marcus Miller glassy high and a good bit of mid range growl you'll need to speak PA man dialect and use tekkie terms they understand. They may not know how to make your bass sound like JJ Burnel's or Steve di Giorgio's do on their records. And, in truth, that may not be the best thing to do for the venue, crowd or event.
Next time you work with a guy you know and like ask for tips and a language lesson, and write it down. Next gig buy your sound guy a drink and have a chat before your sound check and explain what you'd like. Works wonders.
of course he may say. "I'd love to but the overhang on this part of the room boosts the 20Hz wave back at the wall and thus adding super lows to your sound will kill the whole room, Sorry. I'll do my best for you though"

Maybe one of the bass playing PA people on here can coach us in what to ask for.
Maybe a chart of what EQ settings will get a few famous bass player's sounds?

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='OldGit' post='847191' date='May 25 2010, 09:08 AM']Well the singer bit sounds very positive. At least he asked you and you were able to give him an explanation. Hopefully he'll understand now.

I play in a band where two of the members also play bass in other bands but play guitar and guitar & keys in this one The drummer is genuinely interested in what I'm using each gig and can hear the differences. The other members just takes the p155 in a friendly way. In private they are interested in the differences but in public it's "take the p out of the bass player" time. I guess they suffer in their other bands I get my own back though.

PA people are another thing: [b]It's not their fault, it's yours [/b]

How are they supposed to know what you want to sound like if you don't talk to the PA person beforehand and explain.
Last I checked mind reading was not a normal skill for PA people. So a 20 second line check and womb womb womb is all you're going to get.

If you do approach them and ask for Marcus Miller glassy high and a good bit of mid range growl you'll need to speak PA man dialect and use tekkie terms they understand. They may not know how to make your bass sound like JJ Burnel's or Steve di Giorgio's do on their records. And, in truth, that may not be the best thing to do for the venue, crowd or event.
Next time you work with a guy you know and like ask for tips and a language lesson, and write it down. Next gig buy your sound guy a drink and have a chat before your sound check and explain what you'd like. Works wonders.
of course he may say. "I'd love to but the overhang on this part of the room boosts the 20Hz wave back at the wall and thus adding super lows to your sound will kill the whole room, Sorry. I'll do my best for you though"

Maybe one of the bass playing PA people on here can coach us in what to ask for.
Maybe a chart of what EQ settings will get a few famous bass player's sounds?[/quote]

Good points.

[gafbass02]

Trust me, done that, been there, right down to lovely laminated sheets but the bass still (nearly) always falls foul of the same preconceptions/laziness/ignorance/incompetence etc.
Of course as a soundguy I saw plenty of muppets too!
Also of course the onus is on us as players to ensure we send a nice tidy signal ideally compressed and noisegated with any fx set up not to spike volumes or with excessive frequency peaks like waaaay too much octaver etc etc and of course to ask the engineer to listen to your amp tone and say could you make it sound as much like that as possible please, core tone shaping is our job. This is something rehearsals are for, to make your tone how you like it that still works in a mix (record rehearsals if poss, and do 'tone regearsals') There's is to convey it as much as possible in the mix in the room. But not to simply just go with the same old and ride roughshod all over yours and the bands preferences for the sake of laziness/ignorance etc etc

[El Bajo]

I may print of your essay and hand it out to the band

Fortunatly I'm left alone to do what I want in the band but its the down time when we break for a brew that I get the silly questions such as:
'Why don't you play slap bass?' becasue this is a prog metal band, it just wouldn't sit well.
'Why don't you do and tapping?' Because I have to compete with a too loud guitarist, keys and an overactive drummer, I'm barely keeping you all from sounding like a mess.
'Why do you play 6 string?' becasue it looks cool and so that you can't make any 'bass is only 4 strings therefore its easy' comments.

Silly beggers

[cheddatom]

Heh, I read gafs rant and that's as much investment as I can make into this thread.

All I know is, my band would never have asked me to play a different bass, and at gigs I would always talk to the soundman and 90% of the time get him to sort me a DI AND a mic, listen to my different pedals and levels etc.

Obviously i've met the arsehole soundguys. I still don't know what you're supposed to do to get them on side.

[OldGit]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='847200' date='May 25 2010, 09:18 AM']Obviously i've met the arsehole soundguys. I still don't know what you're supposed to do to get them on side.[/quote]

You can be the one bass player on their patch that week that talks to them like they are a human and you are working together for a joint objective.

or... just accept that some sound people hate their jobs, and musicians, then play that gig and move on.

[gafbass02]

Oldgit just nailed it. I always aim for the first, offer a pint and thanks when applicable and grit teeth and smile when applicable heh heh. Perspective an all that

[OutToPlayJazz]

Quite strangely, on the Strictly Tour, I've been eq-ing as I always do, making sure I can hear every frequency of the bass & sending the DI signal "pre eq" from the amp. The sound where we are on the stage is great, but all I hear is thud and boom out front. This weekend however, I sent the signal "post eq" and the engineer commented, "Wow, your bass sounds amazing this week." Hmmm...

[gafbass02]

Ive enjoyed the little mark2 just taking that choice away lol. Does make me think twice before adjusting on the fly tho. Although almost as an accompaniment to the lm2 being fixed post it's also the only amp I've ever just run pretty much flat

[Bottle]

A lot of good comments on this thread already - I feel your pain GafBass. I wear both hats in my church - I'm mostly a PA bod, but I play bass maybe two or three times a month for the morning worship service, so I know what it's like to have a mix you're unhappy with. Fortunately I've got a great guy on the desk for the most part - we swap over most weeks. Sometimes when I'm on the PA desk I can have a great morning - the musicians just gel, and the mix is easy.

Other mornings are like 'Why the f*** did I bother getting outta bed?' - especially if you've got a full FoH mix plus six-way monitor mix (four IEM plus two wedge mixes) to do before 10:30 (get-in is 9:15 and we have to set up everything beforehand and strike it all at the end - sometimes I don't have time to do a complete sound-check with everyone - line check and fix it in the first song). Unfortunately, that sometimes means that bass, second guitar, sax/woodwind and drummer get left till last.

The line-up of musicians changes every week - we have something like five guitarists on rota - two at a time and a mix of electric and acoustic. I'm one of two bass players. We have two completely different drummers. Several people can play keys. Don't get me started on vocals. So, the mix set up changes on a weekly basis. I/we do the best we can.

I've also upped my gear now - I started out with the Line 6 Studio 110 in my siggie, when we had a smaller venue. We're now in a 250-cap school auditorium with it's own acoustic anomalies, so I've started bringing in more and more gear - the 4x10, then added the 1x15, now thinking about adding a 2x12 for the SansAmp effected output - it's a never-ending battle with the drummer . And that is just for my own monitoring - it's insane

I wish there was a simple solution.

HTH, Ian

[Prime_BASS]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='847211' date='May 25 2010, 09:34 AM']Quite strangely, on the Strictly Tour, I've been eq-ing as I always do, making sure I can hear every frequency of the bass & sending the DI signal "pre eq" from the amp. The sound where we are on the stage is great, but all I hear is thud and boom out front. This weekend however, I sent the signal "post eq" and the engineer commented, "Wow, your bass sounds amazing this week." Hmmm... [/quote]

that's it.
Every gig that's required DI, I've always gone post EQ, I've heard my jaquar pre-EG, it's not that great and just thuds, especially on the lower strings.

Also the PAs I've used have always seemed to recreate the sound I usually hear from my cab. I've asked sound guys to turn it up before and that's it. My main issues have been monitors, they never give me a monitor with the overall sound in, and all I can hear is the bass and drums on stage.

I may ask to start micing my amp though aswell as DI.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='847134' date='May 25 2010, 07:36 AM']The fact is, I could use the Jazz, but it would mean the songs would sound different. Besides, do people think we spend all our hard-earned money to get the best gear and sound for nothing?

[/quote]

Good point but looking at it from the other side, why buy the Jazz if you arent going to use it? Why buy a 4 string when you need a 5 string?
I would think the reason your drummer asked is because you just brought a bass you dont intend to use.

Im not having a pop at you or anyone else, but i can understand why the rest of the band might be a bit confused.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='847318' date='May 25 2010, 11:23 AM']Good point but looking at it from the other side, why buy the Jazz if you arent going to use it? Why buy a 4 string when you need a 5 string?
I would think the reason your drummer asked is because you just brought a bass you dont intend to use.

Im not having a pop at you or anyone else, but i can understand why the rest of the band might be a bit confused.[/quote]

I used to have a Steinberger L2 which I never used, so I sold it and bought a Jazz, which although I don't gig, I play at home. I have another soul/funk band but we aren't playing at the moment. If we do, I'll use the Jazz for that.