AH250 MK IV, 'Dark' Sounding

[Count Bassie]

Hey folks. I bought an AH250 GP11 a while back, it's a MK IV I'm pretty sure. Compared to an AMP BH-420, and a newer TE AH250SMX head, each played through an old Peavey 215D and then a pair of Bag End S15-D cabs, the MK IV sounds a little darker and more 'contained' than the other two heads. Is this just the inherent quality of the pre in the MK IV, or does it sound like the amp needs a servicing?

The UV light makes noise when turned on as well, so it needs help anyway- just wondering if this sound issue is a maintenance thing.

Thanks for your time.

[Count Bassie]

Bump.. any Trace experts handy? Here's a photo of the amp in question:





And the back panel:



To reiterate, the head sounds 'darker', less 'lively' than my AH250SMX or the AMP BH-420 on-hand. Any thoughts?

[markorbit]

[quote name='Count Bassie' post='863603' date='Jun 10 2010, 06:55 PM']To reiterate, the head sounds 'darker', less 'lively' than my AH250SMX or the AMP BH-420 on-hand. Any thoughts?[/quote]

I also have an old(er) GP11 and I remember mine being exactly as you describe. In fact, I've just A/B'ed the preamp out now against a later GPSMX preamp through a Berg IP and there is a HUGE difference. The old GP11 sounds a LOT bassier and 'muddier'. I would say mine should have a tech look at it as I have to really use the graphic to get any top end snap out of it. Doesn't sound right to me and yet I used to use these amps back in the 80s with no trouble in that area at all. Is it age? What could be the problem?

Edited June 10, 2010 by markorbit

[Count Bassie]

I'm going to write to British Audio Service next. I am hopeful that someone with first-hand knowledge of this will look in though... at least now there are two of us!

[mikhay77]

I am no expert but I have had several trace heads from mk4s onwards.The last s5 gp11 300watt head was so f*****in loud it was unreal.I now play through a 99 model ah500 12smx which doesnt sound as "loud" but has a lot more clarity and punch if that makes any sense,my spare is a series 6 ah350 7 band which again does do a massive sound but not quite as clear,maybe it must be the pre amp section I dunno,either way great amps,played through allsorts but trace always suits my sound.(Also play through trace 1048h and trace 4x8)

[dan670844]

[quote name='Count Bassie' post='857918' date='Jun 5 2010, 03:58 AM']Hey folks. I bought an AH250 GP11 a while back, it's a MK IV I'm pretty sure. Compared to an AMP BH-420, and a newer TE AH250SMX head, each played through an old Peavey 215D and then a pair of Bag End S15-D cabs, the MK IV sounds a little darker and more 'contained' than the other two heads. Is this just the inherent quality of the pre in the MK IV, or does it sound like the amp needs a servicing?

The UV light makes noise when turned on as well, so it needs help anyway- just wondering if this sound issue is a maintenance thing.

Thanks for your time.[/quote]


YOU LUCKY Man!! a nice find that.
Mark IV's and V's have less top and less middy than Series 6, SMX you will have to rethink your EQ a little. Series 6 and later have a much more middy basic sound. So you may want to be less harsh with cutting those mids. Maybe even knock them up a little (sad man eq) I have a Mark V, I tend to leave the EQ alone, sometimes just boost the low mids and add a little bit in the 1Khz - 3Khz region. I play a passive Jazz, But note the Eq is really sensitive on these.
Mark IV and V are really special amps, they are the original almost handmade Traces, before Clive Button got involved, Series 6 and SMX are more mass produced products, still good though. But these earlier ones are 'lifer' amps as they use really high quality components and ALL the components can be replaced There are no silly impossible to find proprietry electronics in them. I have been using my Mark V a lot recently, I use it with an EBS compressor pedal, with some Nemesis RS cabs (I don't care if they are cheap they sound nice with this amp) With the compressor it really is loud very punchy tight deep bass, very warm sweet.... Enjoy. But a service wouldnt be a bad idea. that buzzing from the UV is the ballast, they do that when they are shot. Cost pennies to sort out.

[dan670844]

[quote name='dan670844' post='864768' date='Jun 11 2010, 10:36 PM']YOU LUCKY Man!! a nice find that.
Mark IV's and V's have less top and less middy than Series 6, SMX you will have to rethink your EQ a little. Series 6 and later have a much more middy basic sound. So you may want to be less harsh with cutting those mids. Maybe even knock them up a little (sad man eq) I have a Mark V, I tend to leave the EQ alone, sometimes just boost the low mids and add a little bit in the 1Khz - 3Khz region. I play a passive Jazz, But note the Eq is really sensitive on these.
Mark IV and V are really special amps, they are the original almost handmade Traces, before Clive Button got involved, Series 6 and SMX are more mass produced products, still good though. But these earlier ones are 'lifer' amps as they use really high quality components and ALL the components can be replaced There are no silly impossible to find proprietry electronics in them. I have been using my Mark V a lot recently, I use it with an EBS compressor pedal, with some Nemesis RS cabs (I don't care if they are cheap they sound nice with this amp) With the compressor it really is loud very punchy tight deep bass, very warm sweet.... Enjoy. But a service wouldnt be a bad idea. that buzzing from the UV is the ballast, they do that when they are shot. Cost pennies to sort out.[/quote]

Sorry I hate to reiterate, but if you compress the lows (don't compress the highs at all) i.e EBS pedal or if you can find one an SMX trace pedal (which is a compressor / enhancer) you will find one of the best bass guitar sounds going. Also note with these old amps thats 250 rms across the range of 20hz to 5khz. thats a big difference between 250watts RMS at 1Khz ala modern amps. It maybe that you speakers don't like it all that much! the old Mark IV V cab speakers had kevlar reinforcement for a good reason............ careful

[Delberthot]

I used an AH150 through a Trace 1248H so the amp would've been putting out about 90 'Trace' watts had I felt the need to actually turn up but it was loud as hell with the amp turned down quite low.

When I was over seeing Chris (Thornybank) I was fortunate enought to be able to try a lot of Trace gear from all periods and the more modern it was, the more compressed and 'sucky' the tone was - the best was the old Mark 2 combo (I think that's what it was). The older cabs were phenomenal as well.

[Conan]

[quote name='dan670844' post='864768' date='Jun 11 2010, 10:36 PM']Mark IV's and V's have less top and less middy than Series 6, SMX you will have to rethink your EQ a little. Series 6 and later have a much more middy basic sound. So you may want to be less harsh with cutting those mids. Maybe even knock them up a little (sad man eq) I have a Mark V, I tend to leave the EQ alone, sometimes just boost the low mids and add a little bit in the 1Khz - 3Khz region. I play a passive Jazz, But note the Eq is really sensitive on these.
Mark IV and V are really special amps, they are the original almost handmade Traces, before Clive Button got involved, Series 6 and SMX are more mass produced products, still good though. But these earlier ones are 'lifer' amps as they use really high quality components and ALL the components can be replaced There are no silly impossible to find proprietry electronics in them.[/quote]

Interesting! I bought my old AH250 brand new in 1986 - which mark would that be? Just out of interest, as I no longer have it!

It was exactly like the one in the pix above, except that the front lower panel only had the illuminated "AH250" logo, not the "Trace Elliot" one...

Edited June 12, 2010 by Conan

[Count Bassie]

Wow, thanks for the nice info there Dan! I do now recall seeing the "Soundwave" label inside the chassis/sleeve, when I took the UV light assembly off to clean it up a bit, do a little snooping.

I do think I'll have my local amp tech have a look-see into it, maybe he can fix 'er up. He's done work on other Trace stuff for me and always did a nice job. In fact (quick derail here) yesterday I picked up my AH250SMX from him, and learned that the FX loop isn't an insert-type, but works more like an Aux Send: The fx signal is mixed with the preamp signal at the fx loop Send jack, rather than the preamp signal sending itself into the effect. The amount of effect mixed into the preamp (dry) signal is determined by the [b]Send Level[/b] knob on the back panel. Pretty interesting. Also, the Effects Volume knob on the front (of the 250SMX anyway) does pretty much nothing. You just leave it dimed.

Okay, cool stuff to know. And no wonder the amp seems to work without any glitches at all (except for the light). Many thanks for all the info and interest.



[quote name='Conan' post='865179' date='Jun 12 2010, 08:28 AM']Interesting! I bought my old AH250 brand new in 1986 - which mark would that be? Just out of interest, as I no longer have it!

It was exactly like the one in the pix above, except that the front lower panel only had the illuminated "AH250" logo, not the "Trace Elliot" one...[/quote]

Trace Elliot seem to have made lots of unpublished, minor adjustments to their gear over the years, almost as if the shole compnay was sort of a big, marketed experiment. That's not a bad thing, just saying that I've noticed quite a few 'odball' details from edition to edition, even within the same model name/number. What's the back panel look like? Same as mine there?

[witterth]

Whats wrong with the light? do you know?

[dan670844]

[quote name='Count Bassie' post='865311' date='Jun 12 2010, 04:10 PM']Wow, thanks for the nice info there Dan! I do now recall seeing the "Soundwave" label inside the chassis/sleeve, when I took the UV light assembly off to clean it up a bit, do a little snooping.

I do think I'll have my local amp tech have a look-see into it, maybe he can fix 'er up. He's done work on other Trace stuff for me and always did a nice job. In fact (quick derail here) yesterday I picked up my AH250SMX from him, and learned that the FX loop isn't an insert-type, but works more like an Aux Send: The fx signal is mixed with the preamp signal at the fx loop Send jack, rather than the preamp signal sending itself into the effect. The amount of effect mixed into the preamp (dry) signal is determined by the [b]Send Level[/b] knob on the back panel. Pretty interesting. Also, the Effects Volume knob on the front (of the 250SMX anyway) does pretty much nothing. You just leave it dimed.

Okay, cool stuff to know. And no wonder the amp seems to work without any glitches at all (except for the light). Many thanks for all the info and interest.





Trace Elliot seem to have made lots of unpublished, minor adjustments to their gear over the years, almost as if the shole compnay was sort of a big, marketed experiment. That's not a bad thing, just saying that I've noticed quite a few 'odball' details from edition to edition, even within the same model name/number. What's the back panel look like? Same as mine there?[/quote]

I think the Mark IV and V are pretty boutique, and were made before they made it really big and starting mass producing them. Amps are always the best when the companies are small to medium and the people within have a passion about what they do, it then always turns to s@@T when they start thinking about money! but the reality is maybe they couldn't afford the parts! I think Mark and Dan Gooday at Ashdown have realized this and they are pulling back and starting to make stuff in house again. Their new valve ended / driven stuff is top.

What do think about that noob on the other thread by the way? ......... Dave College! he hasn't realized yet that the laws of physics etc doesn't apply in bars......... its a parallel universe!

[Count Bassie]

[quote name='dan670844' post='865334' date='Jun 12 2010, 11:43 AM']I think the Mark IV and V are pretty boutique, and were made before they made it really big and starting mass producing them. Amps are always the best when the companies are small to medium and the people within have a passion about what they do, it then always turns to s@@T when they start thinking about money! but the reality is maybe they couldn't afford the parts! I think Mark and Dan Gooday at Ashdown have realized this and they are pulling back and starting to make stuff in house again. Their new valve ended / driven stuff is top.[/quote]

I agree- same thing happens in everything it seems.

[quote name='dan670844' post='865334' date='Jun 12 2010, 11:43 AM']What do think about that noob on the other thread by the way? ......... Dave College! he hasn't realized yet that the laws of physics etc doesn't apply in bars......... its a parallel universe![/quote]

I don't recall the thread- not because ther are so many, but I've been sort of living a pretty nutty schedule the last few weeks I mean 12 years (got young'uns, wierd work schedules, psychotic or personally-disordered band-mates, 'friends', etc)! But I'll say this much anyway, and I think it applies: Science- on paper- and the reality of chaos... they're often pretty irreconcilable! I stay away from math- I think that your ears, which hear in a subjective manner, don't pay attention to numbers. That's why we have terms like "throw" and "bloom". It's what seems to happen, so you might as well go ahead and speak in those terms. It's our reality.

Knowing stuff is empowering, but you don't want to let that get in your way, if you get me.

Dude I really appreciate the info you threw down. Thanks again.

Witterth, I've been told over the phone by my tech that the UV light issue is probably not the ballast, but a simple grounding problem. I'm looking forward to bringing the thing into his shop, I think he'll be pretty gassed to see this old box, and note the 'vintage' of it.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Count Bassie

[markorbit]

My GP11 AH250 is so old it doesn't even have any vinyl covering. Just black wood! Exactly like the one I toured with in 1986.

[dan670844]

[quote name='Count Bassie' post='865348' date='Jun 12 2010, 05:03 PM']I agree- same thing happens in everything it seems.



I don't recall the thread- not because ther are so many, but I've been sort of living a pretty nutty schedule the last few weeks I mean 12 years (got young'uns, wierd work schedules, psychotic or personally-disordered band-mates, 'friends', etc)! But I'll say this much anyway, and I think it applies: Science- on paper- and the reality of chaos... they're often pretty irreconcilable! I stay away from math- I think that your ears, which hear in a subjective manner, don't pay attention to numbers. That's why we have terms like "throw" and "bloom". It's what seems to happen, so you might as well go ahead and speak in those terms. It's our reality.

Knowing stuff is empowering, but you don't want to let that get in your way, if you get me.

Dude I really appreciate the info you threw down. Thanks again.

Witterth, I've been told over the phone by my tech that the UV light issue is probably not the ballast, but a simple grounding problem. I'm looking forward to bringing the thing into his shop, I think he'll be pretty gassed to see this old box, and note the 'vintage' of it.[/quote]

No worries man anytime, if you ever get stuck for parts for Trace gear give me a PM. There's repair company over here called Electro music services, run by too crazy old dudes and a couple of dogs! they have rooms full of boxes and boxes of old parts. They can normally get anything, if they can find it!

[Count Bassie]

[quote name='dan670844' post='865400' date='Jun 12 2010, 12:48 PM']No worries man anytime, if you ever get stuck for parts for Trace gear give me a PM. There's repair company over here called Electro music services, run by too crazy old dudes and a couple of dogs! they have rooms full of boxes and boxes of old parts. They can normally get anything, if they can find it![/quote]

Dont be surprised to hear from me Dan, thanks for the offer.