Lending Gear at gigs

[OldGit]

[quote name='urbanx' post='861895' date='Jun 9 2010, 10:59 AM']True.

Surely the crowd count doen't matter? Or are you just re-iterating that bigger gig's just attract more professional bands with their own gear?[/quote]


No.

The crowd count is your single most powerful bargaining tool in getting gigs and getting paid, and, to keep the thread on track, not being the gear hire company for the night.

No one will be knocking down your door for you to gig because your gear sounds great if you only have a following of 5.

You are in this situation because you are afrid that if you say no to the promotor he will not give you any more gigs. Otherwise you'd just sa no and walk away.

You are "gagging to gig" and he has the only venue in town. Thus he has power over you and you don't want to upset him because he'll not give you any more gigs.

If you had a following of 3000 (or 300) the power would shift and he'd be begging you to come and play (and fill his coffers).

Then you could set the agenda and control who uses your backline.

Edited June 9, 2010 by OldGit

[OldGit]

[quote name='JTUK' post='861908' date='Jun 9 2010, 11:07 AM']I also agree it is relevant but also it is a busted record.[/quote]


Sure but people are still being ripped off regularly because they haven't heard the broken record.

[JTUK]

[quote name='OldGit' post='861917' date='Jun 9 2010, 11:13 AM']Sure but people are still being ripped off regularly because they haven't heard the broken record.[/quote]


of course..and we do think this is one big rip...

The lesson here is indeed numbers..and as you said..if you have them, you dictate terms..if you don't you have to decide what you can accept.
If you ( the OP ) were the draw in this case..the promoter would be getting other people to supply the gear.

You would be blowing him off the gig..

I am pretty sure that a smart promoter would also get paid ( a kickback ) for filling the guy's backroom.. so I would suggest for the organisers, this is a decent nights work.

[Gust0o]

The old Sh!tdisco approach would work well here - I'm sure you could get more of a crowd and a buzz playing in someone's flat, than from the back room of this pub. I think the beer-risk to gear would be about the same, mind!

It's always worth bearing in mind that the promoter is nothing without his/her product. Yes, there are times when it is of value to keep them on side; but it's worth setting out your limits - and if that includes your gear, so be it. The relationship should work both ways, rather than anyone feeling beholden so completely to the promoter.

The purchase of the cheap combo was a nice gesture, but one that should not have been required. I feel bad, on your behalf, that you felt compelled to do so, however good the reasons may have been.

[Doddy]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='861894' date='Jun 9 2010, 10:57 AM']EDIT: But yeh I totally agree on your main principles, it's just that they're a bit vague, and my point was that pulling a crowd out of town is much more difficult than Doddy made out.[/quote]

I never said it was easy. On your first gigs in a new town,you will invariably play to virtually no one. But,if you do a good job
you will get re-booked,and each time you will attract more people than the previous gig. It may take you a while,or it may happen
quickly,but it will happen if you are a good band. I know it's do-able,because I've done it myself. I've argued with promoters who have
complained that we haven't bought a crowd/sold tickets,but they have still rebooked us after the gig.

[4 Strings]

In my experience this is quite a recent phenomenon. Driven more by reducing change-over times than people not having their own amps. 'In my day' each band always brought their own gear, that was that. Was never asked to loan, never asked to borrow, this over 20 odd years, but then it was mostly two bands at the most each night.

Nowadays, my lad's band gigs, on average, fortnightly, almost always with other 2, 3, 4 other bands on the bill. He (drummer) is almost always asked to bring only snare, cymbals and pedal, the rest asked not to bring their backline as it's 'provided'. Turns out, almost always, by the last band on. These poor sods have the free hire problem.

I must admit, there is normally no problem, only once have I seen a guitarist complain about his amp afterwards only to find a button not pressed or something and it was fine. Its to do with smooth/quick changeovers, not bands with no gear. If someone was not prepared to loan (and this has happened, its their prerogative) then the promoter asks the next band down for whatever's needed. There's no requirement to lend, refusal to loan doesn't mean no gig, just means either a longer changeover or using an unfamiliar amp.

Normally fine, not seen a problem, although I can certainly see how there can be and I'm glad I wasn't asked when I played these sorts of venues. If I was asked now I would be on hot bricks and would have to instruct each user on what not to do (for example not to plug the guitar in last etc) and conjure some respect.

If I'd had the experience of the OP, it would have to be 'no'.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='Doddy' post='862037' date='Jun 9 2010, 01:15 PM']I never said it was easy. On your first gigs in a new town,you will invariably play to virtually no one. But,if you do a good job
you will get re-booked,and each time you will attract more people than the previous gig. It may take you a while,or it may happen
quickly,but it will happen if you are a good band. I know it's do-able,because I've done it myself. I've argued with promoters who have
complained that we haven't bought a crowd/sold tickets,but they have still rebooked us after the gig.[/quote]

Fair enough, the tone of your post implied it was easy to me, but obviously I got that wrong!

[Rich]

[quote name='algmusic' post='861901' date='Jun 9 2010, 11:02 AM']I think it's a shame that people can't lend their gear, but these days people generally don't give a f*ck out you or your gear so we have to say no.. that said in some circles there is mutual respect, but the venues, the originator is talking about.. I think not[/quote]
In a nutshell. If we knew for a fact that the anonymous bloke who has just asked to borrow our rig would treat it with utmost care and respect, there'd be no problem. But we don't.

[Dubs]

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='861720' date='Jun 9 2010, 01:38 AM']your myspace has your equipment sharing policy on it! just show the promotor that.????[/quote]

I think the idea of a publicised 'Gear Share Policy' on myspace is good and would go some way to solve a lot of these problems. It would let everyone know where they stand. Having said that, I'm making a massive assumption that people will generally have the common sense/courtesy to get in contact if they require any kind of equipment share - that's a fail right there.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Dubs

[Guest johnzgerman]

[quote name='OldGit' post='861314' date='Jun 8 2010, 06:28 PM']Welcome to basschat CSurgy
We go round this ol' "pay to play" loop about every three months or so..

It may be different where you are but in the UK there's a load of bands playing [b]orginal material[/b] who want to play in a venue.
They want to play but they don't want to do any marketing or selling tickets or take their mates along to see them. Or they are not good enough for their mates to go and see them (more than once).

Thus the venue makes no money out of them. Thus they have to pay to play. It's not really "pay to play" its just facing up to teh cost of putting on a band and being responsible for your part of the expense of putting on a gig - PA, sound person, bar staff, loss of takings over the bar, publicity, rent. elecricity tc etc etc.

It's simples...
You have to do things that enable the person risking their job and/or money to put your band on to make enough money to make it worth while.
If you don't then it is only fair that they ask you to pay to cover the costs of your rehearsal in public, for that is what it is if you don't do the do and take a crowd to buy tickets and drink loads of beer.

So Take 200 people to every gig and you'd get paid.

That's it in a nutshell.[/quote]

so if you dont take any punters to the gig then you should pay to play to an empty room? that sort of defeats the object of playing live.

if you are paying to play then IMO the promoter should be providing an audience for you to play to (which he/she will do if he has an established night that has a good rep for putting reasonable bands on)otherwise why not just have an extra practice that week in your rehersal rooms?

[TimR]

I might be living in cloud cuckoo but if the Promoter has asked to use your amp then he is responsible for it. He is effectively lending it to the other bands.

I would go after him to claim any damage. It's his gig.

if anything happened to the public they would sue him, not the band that was playing at the time.

He's making the money from the event. Get him to give you a deposit and sign a waiver. Job done.

That might persuade him to hire decent backline in the first place and you wouldn't need to bring anything either.

[D-L-B]

Just noticed this Facebook group.

[url="http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#!/group.php?gid=161910165438"]People AGAINST Pay to play & Bad Promoters[/url]

[OldGit]

[quote name='Doddy' post='862037' date='Jun 9 2010, 01:15 PM']I never said it was easy. On your first gigs in a new town,you will invariably play to virtually no one. But,if you do a good job
you will get re-booked,and each time you will attract more people than the previous gig. It may take you a while,or it may happen
quickly,but it will happen if you are a good band. I know it's do-able,because I've done it myself. I've argued with promoters who have
complained that we haven't bought a crowd/sold tickets,but they have still rebooked us after the gig.[/quote]


Exactly my point.

You got a gig in a new geographical area. It is probably at a venue well known for its QC policy and good promotions.

How you actually got that gig in the first place is probably a combination of how you appear in your marketing, communication and online stuff plus you may have a buzz in your own town which has preceded you or been checked by the promoter.

If you have done well in good venues in your home town and other trips out the prospective promoter elsewhere will be interested and give you a first gig.
Once he's been impressed, along with whomever you play to that time, he will be able to promote you better. The people who saw you will also be helping by asking him when that fabbo band is coming back, telling their mates, watching your gig list, taking a flyer home etc.

If the promoter does his job right and you collect the emails etc and make sure the punters know who you are and how to get in touch then next time you'll have more people and so it goes.

But ... if you aren't entertaining (and appropriate for the venue/night/crowd) all this is to no avail as, although you may even get paid for one gig you'll almost certainly not get re-booked.

Edited June 9, 2010 by OldGit

[OldGit]

[quote name='johnzgerman' post='862093' date='Jun 9 2010, 02:02 PM']so if you dont take any punters to the gig then you should pay to play to an empty room? that sort of defeats the object of playing live.

if you are paying to play then IMO the promoter should be providing an audience for you to play to (which he/she will do if he has an established night that has a good rep for putting reasonable bands on)otherwise why not just have an extra practice that week in your rehersal rooms?[/quote]


Moderator Rich has asked us not to go around the pay to play subject again on this thread which is about gear sharing

However there's plenty of discussions on this board about it already (use the advanced search)
Here's a few
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=80325&view=findpost&p=770227"]"Would you do a gigs for free ?, Why should yo be paid ?"[/url]
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=57108&view=findpost&p=565729"]Another pay to play discussion[/url]

We can do it all again on another thread specifically started for the purpose if you like.

I'm happy to keep repeating the same thing 'til people work out that the pay to play system is really brilliant for a smart band who do a bit of the ol'promotion and improvement stuff.

[OldGit]

[quote name='D-L-B' post='862628' date='Jun 9 2010, 09:23 PM']Just noticed this Facebook group.

[url="http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#!/group.php?gid=161910165438"]People AGAINST Pay to play & Bad Promoters[/url][/quote]


Ha ha
Oh dear ..
See above.

[fatgoogle]

I dont mind cabs and amps, its actual bass's.
One of my first gigs we were playing with a friends band and then a band they knew.

So i leant my bass to him who leant it to the other bass player who thusly broke the A string, rendering all three of us totally useless, with only one bass between us. Never again.

[Guest johnzgerman]

[quote name='OldGit' post='862669' date='Jun 9 2010, 09:58 PM']Moderator Rich has asked us not to go around the pay to play subject again on this thread which is about gear sharing

However there's plenty of discussions on this board about it already (use the advanced search)
Here's a few
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=80325&view=findpost&p=770227"]"Would you do a gigs for free ?, Why should yo be paid ?"[/url]
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=57108&view=findpost&p=565729"]Another pay to play discussion[/url]

We can do it all again on another thread specifically started for the purpose if you like.

I'm happy to keep repeating the same thing 'til people work out that the pay to play system is really brilliant for a smart band who do a bit of the ol'promotion and improvement stuff.[/quote]

oops, sorry i had'nt seen Richs post, i do aplogise.

[Shambo]

I just deleted a long winding post about why you should, or not, provide the backline to a bunch of strangers to apease a promoter. It's a grey area and there's no right or wrong way to go about this. You do seem bullied by the whole situation and I think you've got the fear.

Personally, if I was expected, nay demanded, to provide the backline for a bunch of strangers, then I'd knock back the whole gig on a matter of principal and to balls to the consequences. Perhaps you'd do a better job organising your own promotion?

Abrupt as it does sound, OldGit has pretty much nailed the 'pay to play' situation IMV.

[Telebass]

Nothing I've read has changed my mind. Even at festivals where b/l is provided, I will normally use my own.
Haven't got a rig or can't get it to a gig? You're not in a band...

[OldGit]

[quote name='Shambo' post='862819' date='Jun 10 2010, 12:53 AM']Abrupt as it does sound, OldGit has pretty much nailed the 'pay to play' situation IMV.[/quote]

Thanks.

I get a bit abrupt about this because sometimes that works to shake people out of Fairyland where promotors actually promote bands with poor entertainment value, and zero marketing effort, and those bands get paid a fair fee.

[JTUK]

argggggg !! who said anything about lending a bass...???

You do have to question what is in these gigs?
As the post above said..if you don't have the kit and can't get it there, wtf is going on and wth are the band going to be/sound like..?

Even the school bands round here turn up with ok gear and enough to do the gig. They might have to ask to borrow the P.A but that is about it.

[OldGit]

[quote name='JTUK' post='862911' date='Jun 10 2010, 09:08 AM']argggggg !! who said anything about lending a bass...???

You do have to question what is in these gigs?
As the post above said..if you don't have the kit and can't get it there, wtf is going on and wth are the band going to be/sound like..?

Even the school bands round here turn up with ok gear and enough to do the gig. They might have to ask to borrow the P.A but that is about it.[/quote]

Oh I think the "lend us yer bass mate" thing is beyond the pale however I think you missed the bit about the gig organiser telling bands not to bring gear as "backline is provided"

[JTUK]

I was responding to the post at the top of the page...but so as not to go off topic again..
I'd tell the promoter to bin the idea but then have never been in a situation where gigs are so hard to come by...

Last time I recall we did this was at the Orange club in London and everyband hauled their gear off stage and turned round in about 20 mins or so.
We did get paid via our flyers but it was almost like audition night for a decent slot and we knew were filling his club on a down-night.
I seem to recall that was done well all round though.

[urbanx]

I guess a lot of this thread boils down to the magical balance of Risk vs Reward. (which is probably why this thread went on to pay-to-play) Risk vs Reward.

If you risk lending your gear to someone, you could be rewarded with a great, smoothly run gig, and some new friends. You could also be rewarded with a massive repair bill.

I’ve accepted the outlay of £30 for a crap amp, just so crap bands can support us, and we might get more gig’s off this ‘promoter’. My reward? When I jump off the tiny stage, and I’m dancing and rocking out with my a room full of my mates, drenched in sweat and beer.

Is that worth a £30 risk? To me it’s priceless.

....(but I’m still not lending my full rig out!)

[OldGit]

[quote name='urbanx' post='863054' date='Jun 10 2010, 11:01 AM']I guess a lot of this thread boils down to the magical balance of Risk vs Reward. (which is probably why this thread went on to pay-to-play) Risk vs Reward.

If you risk lending your gear to someone, you could be rewarded with a great, smoothly run gig, and some new friends. You could also be rewarded with a massive repair bill.

I’ve accepted the outlay of £30 for a crap amp, just so crap bands can support us, and we might get more gig’s off this ‘promoter’. My reward? When I jump off the tiny stage, and I’m dancing and rocking out with my a room full of my mates, drenched in sweat and beer.

Is that worth a £30 risk? To me it’s priceless.

....(but I’m still not lending my full rig out!)[/quote]


Sounds like you have sorted out what you want to do.