Lending Gear at gigs

[lemmywinks]

I'd do as OG said and just use the cheapy combo you got for everybody, if the in-house PA is up to scratch it'd make the night a bit easier/

On the positive side you've spent a small amount (£30) on a combo that will give you peace of mind and you can use it for practices and small gigs. What combo did you get btw?

[OldGit]

[quote name='Doddy' post='861335' date='Jun 8 2010, 06:47 PM']What if you are trying to break into a new area? If you are from,say,Manchester and doing a gig in London,why should
you have to take a crowd with you? You shouldn't have to drag all of your mates halfway across the country to be able
to get paid to do a gig. If it's promoted well,people will start to hear of you and come out.[/quote]

Aw comon, Doddy You're a pro and you are not new round here. Do I really have to go over this again?
No benefit to the promoter, (ie no draw), no pay.
The end.

If you drag yourself across the country out of your area to play a gig you are looking for some benefit.
Maybe it's a prestigious venue to add to your CV. Maybe they have a good crowd and you hope to build your following from it and go back and do more gigs.
Maybe even the A&R man from Tosspot rekkerds drinks there on a Friday or the promoter calls her up and says "hey I had this brilliant money spinning opportunity band in here last night, sign them up" or something.

It's promotion for your band. You'd pay a bit for that would you not?

If you take no one with you what is in it for the person who puts up the money to pay for you to grace their stage with your stunning presence? (not you personally but the band looking to build a following?)
Sure the promoter should do some promotion but...

You could do some kind of deal with a local band so they bring all their mates to your gig a long way away and then you take all your mates to their gig that you help promote when they come to you.

Or you hire a coach and take a huge noisy bunch of people with you who convince everyone else in the venue that you are the New Gods of Rock and you do a Twitter, Myspace and facebook campaign with your street team or you just live with the fact that someone has to pay for you to play and if it isn't the crowd you draw, it's you.

[quote]Urbanx ......So,you've been pressured into buying a new amp for other bands to use in a pay-to-play 'venue' that only holds 50
people?? I think someone is majorly taking the piss out of you.
I know that you want to play,but I would get away from these kind of situations pretty sharpish.[/quote]

+1

[Doddy]

I've done gigs with original bands all over the country and beyond,and have never taken a load of mates
with us and have never paid to get on a bill. The gigs are there without you having to supply your own audience,
or without putting your hand in your pocket. You're first gig may be quiet,but if you do a good job you will begin
to draw more people next time-if you do a good job,there will be a next time despite not drawing a large crowd.

[JTUK]

Let me see... cast my mind back.

I can recall my first gigging band booking village halls and having decent nights. I don't recall much money or that many gigs per month at all but I do recall some well attended gigs
and it was all worth it. Don't recall amp share and don't recall desperate 'promoters' running things...we did all that.

After that, at 17, I joined a function band...and that did earn money.
After that always got paid..pretty much.

I think you can help yourself in these situations ..but I wish the OP well for this gig and hope it goes down a storm.

If the energy was directed at getting and making gigs yourselves...you'd feel a lot better about it all...and have control with about the same amount of stress you are getting now..

But OG is right..if you are selling it is all about what someone is willing or has to..PAY. I just don't think this should be so easy for that guy...

Hell..having 3 bands on a night pretty much garuantees the venue is full...what has he had to do..????

[algmusic]

[quote name='urbanx' post='861144' date='Jun 8 2010, 03:58 PM']We have hired this venue in question before, and they run a clever system: Venue & Tech hire (you have to use theirs) is £280. Venue capacity is 50 (plus bands). You cant really charge more than £5 for a venue that size...

So even if you sell out it'll cost you £30...[/quote]

I've solved your rig share problem.. don't do the gig. Don't pay to play mate

[johnnylager]

[quote name='JTUK' post='861364' date='Jun 8 2010, 07:23 PM']I can recall my first gigging band booking village halls and having decent nights. I don't recall much money or that many gigs per month at all but I do recall some well attended gigs and it was all worth it. Don't recall amp share and don't recall desperate 'promoters' running things...we did all that.[/quote]
It starts out as a hobby & if you can make enough wedge to make it pay for itself, you've won. Then you think this might happen -

[quote name='OldGit' post='861351' date='Jun 8 2010, 07:05 PM']Maybe even the A&R man from Tosspot rekkerds drinks there on a Friday or the promoter calls her up and says "hey I had this brilliant money spinning opportunity band in here last night, sign them up" or something.[/quote]
Word up Si.

Then you join / form a function / covers band....

Edited June 8, 2010 by johnnylager

[chris_b]

[quote name='witterth' post='861324' date='Jun 8 2010, 06:35 PM']....do none of you hardened pros or ruemy eyed funk rockers (like me) not remember that,first flush of youthful enthusiam?....[/quote]
I can remember the early days, and I got ripped off a lot back then! The first time by Don Arden, no less. So promoters haven't changed and sadly neither have musicians.

I can't help thinking that you guys are making it so easy for the "promoters". You take all the risks, provide the gear and audience, have to follow their "rules" which clearly disadvantage you and then they take the money!

[OldGit]

[quote name='Doddy' post='861358' date='Jun 8 2010, 07:15 PM']I've done gigs with original bands all over the country and beyond,and have never taken a load of mates
with us and have never paid to get on a bill. The gigs are there without you having to supply your own audience,
or without putting your hand in your pocket. You're first gig may be quiet,but if you do a good job you will begin
to draw more people next time-if you do a good job,there will be a next time despite not drawing a large crowd.[/quote]


I suspect you were entertaining and professional though.
From previous rounds of this discussion that is a rarity.
I doubt you'd be in the OP's situation.

[urbanx]

Oi! I'm professional and entertaining! Well entertaining....

No, it's a good point. I actually think our whole band suffers from this gear problem because of our professionalism. We've all spent more on our gear than our cars, but yes we do play with bands that are young an spend most the eveening pissing about, and expecting gear for free. I'd like to say I was a wippersnaper, or that I don't know better, but I've done over 100 gigs with this band, I'm pushing 30... But seem to be put in this position at nearly EVERY gig! Argh!!

[Ian Savage]

[quote name='urbanx' post='861710' date='Jun 9 2010, 12:54 AM']No, it's a good point. I actually think our whole band suffers from this gear problem because of our professionalism. We've all spent more on our gear than our cars, but yes we do play with bands that are young an spend most the eveening pissing about, and expecting gear for free. I'd like to say I was a wippersnaper, or that I don't know better, but I've done over 100 gigs with this band, I'm pushing 30... But seem to be put in this position at nearly EVERY gig! Argh!![/quote]

I hear you brother.

I was in much the same situation with the last couple of bands I was with (not that much behind you age-wise either) and it would really piss me off when bands would turn up under-rehearsed, playing guitars/basses that it was clear mummy and daddy had bought for them (I played knockabout Fender copies with GOOD pickups for the most part, having kids turn up with Stingrays and Streamers partnered with 150W combos was ludicrous) expecting to use my full rig.

As I've said before in the thread, I've no problem whatsoever with people using my cabs, as I don't use crap myself and it'd have to be a seriously malfunctioning head to damage them, but I'd think seriously about letting anyone use my head.

If you're likely to be in this situation again (and by the sound of the clearly sh*t 'promotor' at this venue, you may be) you've probably done the right thing. Although after this gig (hopefully) goes off without a hitch, hammer the f***er for a bit more compromise next time.

[LukeFRC]

In my opinion, and this is just my opinion, and bare in mind my art college background, I used to work for a promoter as a student (a big one, they put on T in the park) and so got paid to see a lot of bands. Now this promoter are big enough they can put on good bands as support acts. No having seen lots of support acts, and then lots of other acts outside this promoter's gigs I have come to the conclusion that a great deal of bands you come across are artistically worthless.
Tallentless idiots trying to be something, or have a copied style or image or something. No sense of fun or art, fake rock star moves, a lack of good songs and ultimately not worth listening too, either on CD or live.
There are however a great deal of great bands, ranging from kids doing thier first gig to seasoned pros. With a sense of art, of music and doingsomething interesting and then communicating that with their audience.
There's too much dross, and too much dross that is prepared to play for free.

I developed a number of ways (not foolproof) to spot the dross.
- The band are all dressed the same, yet cant play in time together.
- Shiney expensive and new gear in small venues. MAtching marshall guitar stacks without a scuff on them. Still half way through their how to play guitar book yet obviously want to show off their 4k PRS
- any band with some logo on a bit of card or a banner. just no.
- any band who tells you thier myspace address between every song
-10 min tuning sessions bectween songs

anyway, ive forgotten the point i was trying to make..... oh well

oh yeah, if your band is NOT crap. Then other ppl will like you. and then with a bit of creativity, you can make things happen that are interesting. just work out why you are interesting in the first place.
its all about the music and the art

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='urbanx' post='861710' date='Jun 9 2010, 12:54 AM']Oi! I'm professional and entertaining! Well entertaining....

No, it's a good point. I actually think our whole band suffers from this gear problem because of our professionalism. We've all spent more on our gear than our cars, but yes we do play with bands that are young an spend most the eveening pissing about, and expecting gear for free. I'd like to say I was a wippersnaper, or that I don't know better, but I've done over 100 gigs with this band, I'm pushing 30... But seem to be put in this position at nearly EVERY gig! Argh!![/quote]

okay.... two things....

you guys are interesting, you can make things happen... il'd come watch

your myspace has your equipment sharing policy on it! just show the promotor that.????

[3V17C]

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='861720' date='Jun 9 2010, 12:38 AM']your myspace has your equipment sharing policy on it! just show the promotor that.????[/quote]

yep.. a policy which says 'no exceptions'.. so stick by that - you let it slide once and it'll happen again,... and again....


peace

C

[OldGit]

[quote name='urbanx' post='861710' date='Jun 9 2010, 12:54 AM']Oi! I'm professional and entertaining! Well entertaining....

No, it's a good point. I actually think our whole band suffers from this gear problem because of our professionalism. We've all spent more on our gear than our cars, but yes we do play with bands that are young an spend most the eveening pissing about, and expecting gear for free. I'd like to say I was a wippersnaper, or that I don't know better, but I've done over 100 gigs with this band, I'm pushing 30... But seem to be put in this position at nearly EVERY gig! Argh!![/quote]


Sorry, this is a bit of a soapbox subject for me.

If you were well entertaining* you'd be attracting audiences big enough to play this gig on your own under your own control and making money.

*and doing the marketing right.

100 gigs and you are still number three on a four band gig in a place that holds 50 people? .. Mate, you are doing [b]something[/b] seriously wrong.

[OldGit]

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='861719' date='Jun 9 2010, 01:34 AM']In my opinion, and this is just my opinion, and bare in mind my art college background, I used to work for a promoter as a student (a big one, they put on T in the park) and so got paid to see a lot of bands. Now this promoter are big enough they can put on good bands as support acts. No having seen lots of support acts, and then lots of other acts outside this promoter's gigs I have come to the conclusion that a great deal of bands you come across are artistically worthless.
Tallentless idiots trying to be something, or have a copied style or image or something. No sense of fun or art, fake rock star moves, a lack of good songs and ultimately not worth listening too, either on CD or live.
There are however a great deal of great bands, ranging from kids doing thier first gig to seasoned pros. With a sense of art, of music and doingsomething interesting and then communicating that with their audience.
There's too much dross, and too much dross that is prepared to play for free.

I developed a number of ways (not foolproof) to spot the dross.
- The band are all dressed the same, yet cant play in time together.
- Shiney expensive and new gear in small venues. MAtching marshall guitar stacks without a scuff on them. Still half way through their how to play guitar book yet obviously want to show off their 4k PRS
- any band with some logo on a bit of card or a banner. just no.
- any band who tells you thier myspace address between every song
-10 min tuning sessions bectween songs

anyway, ive forgotten the point i was trying to make..... oh well

oh yeah, if your band is NOT crap. Then other ppl will like you. and then with a bit of creativity, you can make things happen that are interesting. just work out why you are interesting in the first place.
its all about the music and the art[/quote]

Amen, Brother Luke.

[JTUK]

[quote name='OldGit' post='861799' date='Jun 9 2010, 09:19 AM']Sorry, this is a bit of a soapbox subject for me.

If you were well entertaining* you'd be attracting audiences big enough to play this gig on your own under your own control and making money.

*and doing the marketing right.

100 gigs and you are still number three on a four band gig in a place that holds 50 people? .. Mate, you are doing [b]something[/b] seriously wrong.[/quote]


A bit harsh ...or maybe not so diplomatic, but this has a ring of truth.

For me, I see no reason why an original act shouldn't be pulling in ticket numbers on its own if they are hitting the spot...whatever and whereever that spot is.

The benchmark ..as always..is do enough people wnat to come and see you. In pubs it is easier as the publican takes the hit but he still has to knock out £600 worth of drinks.. to pay for a £200 band.

I am not so sure what the correct figures there may be...but enough places round here seem to make it work.

We went to see an awful..( not so good ) band the other day as the guy runs a rehearsal studio and we wanted to support the guy and the pub.
I asked the landlord if there were many locals in and he said no...the band brought them in.
There was me thinking this isn't so great musically and the landlord is having a good business night so he LOVES them..

That is a harsh truth.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='Doddy' post='861358' date='Jun 8 2010, 07:15 PM']I've done gigs with original bands all over the country and beyond,and have never taken a load of mates
with us and have never paid to get on a bill. The gigs are there without you having to supply your own audience,
or without putting your hand in your pocket. You're first gig may be quiet,but if you do a good job you will begin
to draw more people next time-if you do a good job,there will be a next time despite not drawing a large crowd.[/quote]

Hmmmm, i'm not sure what sort of original bands you were playing with, but it's very difficult IME to play in venues where people turn up for bands coming from out of town. We've played loads in manchester, brum and london, and on the whole they've been rather empty. After playing about 10 gigs in Manchester we started to be able to get a bit of a crowd in, but i'm talking like 20 people (who would come specifically for us).

If there is a "buzz" about a band, i'm sure they can pull the crowds easily, but for a "buzz" don't you need radio support or an army of geeks posting your band all over the web or some other such gimmick?

[OldGit]

[quote name='JTUK' post='861853' date='Jun 9 2010, 10:24 AM']A bit harsh ...or maybe not so diplomatic, but this has a ring of truth.[/quote]


Sorry. I woke up grumpy .. and she wouldn't make the tea...


Oh and I'm always happy to help, Urbanx. PM for a chat about how to change the situation if you like.
Objective view and all that ...

Edited June 9, 2010 by OldGit

[Rich]

Can we not do the pay-to-play thing here? It's a whole different can of worms to the original subject.
It has been covered before so it might be worth searching for and/or resurrecting an old thread.

[OldGit]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='861859' date='Jun 9 2010, 10:28 AM']If there is a "buzz" about a band, i'm sure they can pull the crowds easily, but for a "buzz" don't you need radio support or an army of geeks posting your band all over the web or some other such gimmick?[/quote]

Yep.
"Gimmicks" like telling people when you are on (by whatever means) and getting other people to tell people how good you are (by whatever means)
Same ol' gimmicks that have been around since before the Beatles' grand dads were born.... only now it's a lot easier as we have t'internet, twitter , text, etc.

What really helps, though, is being a band people want to come and see more than once.
How do you do that? You become entertaining. then you make sure everyone knows when you are playing, well in advance, so they can get a bunch of new people along to see this great band they have found.

[SET cracked record ON]
It's still the same ol' two pronged attack used by everyone from Bach to Beck via the Beatles, Bowie and Bombay Bicycle Club:
1 be entertaining (whatever passes for that in your genre)
2 tell people when you are playing
[ END cracked record]

Edited June 9, 2010 by OldGit

[OldGit]

[quote name='Rich' post='861871' date='Jun 9 2010, 10:40 AM']Can we not do the pay-to-play thing here? It's a whole different can of worms to the original subject.
It has been covered before so it might be worth searching for and/or resurrecting an old thread.[/quote]


Sorry!

However.. if you draw a big enough crowd you can then tell the promoter you won't be supplying the backline for everyone as the risk of him then saying "well that's no more gigs for you then sonny" is reduced as he'd be cutting of a decent revenue stream.

Thus it is relevant to the OP in an tangential way

Edited June 9, 2010 by OldGit

[cheddatom]

[quote name='OldGit' post='861883' date='Jun 9 2010, 10:48 AM']Yep.
"Gimmicks" like telling people when you are on (by whatever means) and getting other people to tell people how good you are (by whatever means)
Same ol' gimmicks that have been around since before the Beatles' grand dads were born.... only now it's a lot easier as we have t'internet, twitter , text, etc.[/quote]

I think in the context of out-of-town gigs, it's much harder to tell people when you're playing, as you don't have contacts for the people, as they're out of town. Local radios and papers can help, but they are generally much more interested in helping local (IE out-of-town to you) bands. You are right that the internet makes spreading the word easier, but again, you can only communicate with your existing contacts.

EDIT: But yeh I totally agree on your main principles, it's just that they're a bit vague, and my point was that pulling a crowd out of town is much more difficult than Doddy made out.

Edited June 9, 2010 by cheddatom

[urbanx]

True.

But if I didn't know the Beatles, and Paul just came up to me moments before going on stage giving it all "So I just plug in here, yeah?" the principles would be the same.

Surely the crowd count doen't matter? Or are you just re-iterating that bigger gig's just attract more professional bands with their own gear?

[algmusic]

this tread has been the most interesting the thread.. it's funny really...

We all just want to play, enjoy ourselves and not spend money on repairs we didn't cause..

I think it's a shame that people can't lend their gear, but these days people generally don't give a f*ck out you or your gear so we have to say no.. that said in some circles there is mutual respect, but the venues, the originator is talking about.. I think not

maybe if all bass players read these threads, we'd be able to lend our equipment... wishful thinking, I know

[JTUK]

I also agree it is relevant but also it is a busted record.

So, how are you going to deal with this gig and others beyond it... in regards to shared back-line..?

Personally, I be looking to ditch the promoter who get bands to fill up a backroom of a pub and charges you for that..and you are proividing the numbers and it seems, everything else.
I bet the pub has quite a few extra bar staff on that night..??????

but beyond this gig..what are your options..?