Digital Modelling vs The Real Thing

[velvetkevorkian]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' post='862282' date='Jun 9 2010, 04:23 PM']Which means that my 2004 MIA Jazz must be uber-wicked.
I went out with every intention of buying a Variax Bass. I got on fine with it in terms of playability and feel, but had the shop let me try a Stingray, Corvette and Jazz just for comparison. Every one of them sounded better than the Variax, even when it was at its best.
The Jazz was SO good, I bought it.
I did quite like the 8/12 string (Hagstrom/Hamer) modelling on the Variax, though.[/quote]
...or it could have been a dog of a pre-CBS Fender...

[ironside1966]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='862036' date='Jun 9 2010, 01:13 PM']I slate DM without ever having used it

I don't see the point of using a model of something no matter how accurate (which is where the conjecture surely lies) when the real thing is readily available.

Real valve preamps aren't heavy.

If I wanted to create a sound I couldn't get with a valve or solid state pre I'd be all for DM though. I just dont!

It's the poweramp bit where I get interested.

That said, I have been tempted by those little TC Electronics things recently.[/quote]

I can think of quite a few
Size
Cost
Versatility
Live:
To get the sound of the you are hearing you need to mic up the cab; a slight movement of the microphone can change the sound.
Less chance of a bad engineer ruining you sound.
Consistency.
Don’t need to play as loud to get the sound you want.
Studio:
They are just so small and versatile
Don’t need to be so loud
Great for home studios
Silent tracking
Re-amp, record a dry signal and you can always reamp later great for getting you out of a hole even if you have recorded a real amp.

[Marvin]

[quote name='silddx' post='862161' date='Jun 9 2010, 03:04 PM']Likewise, I ditched my Fender twin 4x10, expensive power soak, and all my effects and went for a POD. I can't tell the difference either, in fact I get sounds out the POD I prefer and i can taylor all of them to exactly how I want them. The POD is my Desert Island piece of kit.[/quote]

Late to the party again I'm afraid .
I have very limited experience in all things technical, however I did have a very interesting chat with a music shop owner a couple of weeks back. He was a real tech nerd (and a really top bloke) and he explained how Line 6 create the 'digital models'. Unlike my zoom which is basically a recording (it's a bit more in depth than that but it basically only emulates the end sound), whereas the Line 6 guys break down the whole signal from start to finish and recreate it at every point. That's why it sounds as good as it does, you get the whole thing. He said it was a fantastic piece of kit, and in the main most people can't tell it's a digital sound.


Personally I'm a bit of both chap myself. The main problem I would encounter only using a pedal is that the venues I would be playing wouldn't have a PA at all
If you don't need to lug around rigs then don't. I'm certainly a fan of any technology that proves itself to do the job. I is no ludite.

[Wil]

Are Sansamps digital? I've never used a POD but I know I'd take a Sansamp over a heavy, potentially unreliable valve amp any day of the week.

[velvetkevorkian]

No, Sansamps are analogue (although the rack models have a digital interface).

Edited June 9, 2010 by velvetkevorkian

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Marvin' post='862345' date='Jun 9 2010, 05:01 PM']Late to the party again I'm afraid .
I have very limited experience in all things technical, however I did have a very interesting chat with a music shop owner a couple of weeks back. He was a real tech nerd (and a really top bloke) and he explained how Line 6 create the 'digital models'. Unlike my zoom which is basically a recording (it's a bit more in depth than that but it basically only emulates the end sound), whereas the Line 6 guys break down the whole signal from start to finish and recreate it at every point. That's why it sounds as good as it does, you get the whole thing. He said it was a fantastic piece of kit, and in the main most people can't tell it's a digital sound.[/quote]

But the Line 6 presets sound dreadful. I think it is listening with machines and not with an actual ear syndrome.

[quote name='Wil' post='862375' date='Jun 9 2010, 05:23 PM']Are Sansamps digital? I've never used a POD but I know I'd take a Sansamp over a heavy, potentially unreliable valve amp any day of the week.[/quote]

Sansamps are analogue. Some have digital control, but analogue signal path. The simulate and are programmed by ear to a fairly large extent, so they sound good out the box.

Edit: bah, beaten to it, but would like to note the floor programmable ones have digital pots, so there are 256 positions that are stored in memory, or whatever, so you can recall them.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Mr. Foxen

[ped]

I don't think they sound necessarily the SAME, but then neither do I think every (INSERT AMPLIFIER TYPE HERE) sounds the same as each other because the venue and situation has so much affect.

I do however think modelling sounds just as good in it's own right, not necessarily to copy or replicate other amplifiers, but as a type all of their own. It's also far more convenient and more flexible, and usually has better connectivity for use with PA, recording and monitoring situations.

ped

[ped]

Guess which of these is recorded with an all valve Trace V4 combo, which is through a Roland Vbass unit and which is through a POD!

1 - [url="https://dl.dropbox.com/u/85432/jam%20clips/Half%20moon%20short.mp3"]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/85432/jam%20clips/...oon%20short.mp3[/url]

2 - [url="https://dl.dropbox.com/u/85432/USB%203/Canti%27s%20Wrap.mp3"]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/85432/USB%203/Canti%27s%20Wrap.mp3[/url]

3 - [url="https://dl.dropbox.com/u/85432/Clown%20Killa.mp3"]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/85432/Clown%20Killa.mp3[/url]

ped

[ironside1966]

A lot of the high quality amps use high quality speaker’s, well designed cabs, top quality components which must play a part to the physical sound but probably makes no difference with a DI or when kept in the digital domain.

Some people enjoy owning nice gear while some see it as tools to do a job

[Marvin]

1. Trace

2. POD

3. V Bass

I'm making a wild guess BTW. If I'm right do I get a Basschat t-shirt?

[xilddx]

[quote name='ped' post='862398' date='Jun 9 2010, 05:40 PM']Guess which of these is recorded with an all valve Trace V4 combo, which is through a Roland Vbass unit and which is through a POD!

1 - [url="https://dl.dropbox.com/u/85432/jam%20clips/Half%20moon%20short.mp3"]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/85432/jam%20clips/...oon%20short.mp3[/url]

2 - [url="https://dl.dropbox.com/u/85432/USB%203/Canti%27s%20Wrap.mp3"]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/85432/USB%203/Canti%27s%20Wrap.mp3[/url]

3 - [url="https://dl.dropbox.com/u/85432/Clown%20Killa.mp3"]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/85432/Clown%20Killa.mp3[/url]

ped[/quote]
1. Silk Gloves

2. No Gloves

3. Gardening Gloves





Oops, wrong thread

[BigRedX]

[quote name='ped' post='862398' date='Jun 9 2010, 05:40 PM']Guess which of these is recorded with an all valve Trace V4 combo, which is through a Roland Vbass unit and which is through a POD!

1 - [url="https://dl.dropbox.com/u/85432/jam%20clips/Half%20moon%20short.mp3"]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/85432/jam%20clips/...oon%20short.mp3[/url]

2 - [url="https://dl.dropbox.com/u/85432/USB%203/Canti%27s%20Wrap.mp3"]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/85432/USB%203/Canti%27s%20Wrap.mp3[/url]

3 - [url="https://dl.dropbox.com/u/85432/Clown%20Killa.mp3"]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/85432/Clown%20Killa.mp3[/url]

ped[/quote]

And the answers are:

1. Who cares it's an appropriate sound for the track.

2. Who cares it's an appropriate sound for the track.

3. Who cares it's an appropriate sound for the track.

Can you spot a theme yet?

[ped]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='862506' date='Jun 9 2010, 07:10 PM']And the answers are:

1. Who cares it's an appropriate sound for the track.

2. Who cares it's an appropriate sound for the track.

3. Who cares it's an appropriate sound for the track.

Can you spot a theme yet?[/quote]

Haha. Yup. Spot on.

[EdwardHimself]

I've just got guitar rig 4 and i think it does a great job of modelling the recorded sounds of guitar and bass amps. If i was just listening to the amp in my bedroom then i would no doubt be able to tell differences due to the digital conversion, monitoring etc... but once it's on the computer there is really little difference between the 2 sounds because any differences in the nuances of the real amp compared to the digital one are lost in the digital conversion. Besides, my guitar amp has busted on me twice so i've decided that i'm not going to bother getting it fixed and even if GR doesn't sound quite as good, i don't care because it's got a hell of a lot more things to play with and more to the point it WORKS.

Edited June 9, 2010 by EdwardHimself

[Dood]

[quote name='ped' post='862398' date='Jun 9 2010, 05:40 PM']Guess which of these is recorded with an all valve Trace V4 combo, which is through a Roland Vbass unit and which is through a POD!

1 - [url="https://dl.dropbox.com/u/85432/jam%20clips/Half%20moon%20short.mp3"]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/85432/jam%20clips/...oon%20short.mp3[/url]

2 - [url="https://dl.dropbox.com/u/85432/USB%203/Canti%27s%20Wrap.mp3"]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/85432/USB%203/Canti%27s%20Wrap.mp3[/url]

3 - [url="https://dl.dropbox.com/u/85432/Clown%20Killa.mp3"]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/85432/Clown%20Killa.mp3[/url]

ped[/quote]


Which one was doused in Snake Oil, Ped?

[Marvin]

[quote name='ped' post='862510' date='Jun 9 2010, 07:12 PM']Haha. Yup. Spot on.[/quote]

No t-shirt then.

[deathpanda]

for me, a passive jazz bass and an ampeg is all I ever need. change the mids when needed and I'm ready to go. I might be bit of a purist deep down, and I would be willing to give amp modeling a go, but i know it would never feel right. I've never heard a good line 6 guitar amp, and I've played on loads. the tones sound too glossy and plastic.

[ped]

[quote name='Marvin' post='862602' date='Jun 9 2010, 08:53 PM']No t-shirt then.



[/quote]

Well I sold 'em all I'm afraid, but I'll give you a quickie at the next bash if you like

[ped]

[quote name='deathpanda' post='862703' date='Jun 9 2010, 10:27 PM']The tones sound too glossy and plastic.[/quote]

So which of mine is the Line6?

To be honest I think most people don't spend enough time learning how to get the best out of them. I was the same - heard them at shows and couldn't get anything but fuzz and crap out of them and totally wrote them off. I was given an XT Pro in a deal and thought I would instantly sell it on, assuming it would sound horrible. After spending weeks and weeks learning the ins and outs of the thing I started to find that it really could do anything you wanted if you knew how to approach getting that sound. It needed to be teamed up with a poweramp and decent speaker, obviously, as does any amplifier, but as a pre-amp I think it's amazing.

I still prefer the Vbass for its unique functions but this whole digital VS analogue thing is completely beyond me, at least, having owned the best of both camps and ending up sounding the same with all of them.

ped

[deathpanda]

[quote name='ped' post='862779' date='Jun 9 2010, 11:50 PM']So which of mine is the Line6?

To be honest I think most people don't spend enough time learning how to get the best out of them. I was the same - heard them at shows and couldn't get anything but fuzz and crap out of them and totally wrote them off. I was given an XT Pro in a deal and thought I would instantly sell it on, assuming it would sound horrible. After spending weeks and weeks learning the ins and outs of the thing I started to find that it really could do anything you wanted if you knew how to approach getting that sound. It needed to be teamed up with a poweramp and decent speaker, obviously, as does any amplifier, but as a pre-amp I think it's amazing.

I still prefer the Vbass for its unique functions but this whole digital VS analogue thing is completely beyond me, at least, having owned the best of both camps and ending up sounding the same with all of them.

ped[/quote]

yeah, to each his own, I've heard some great POD tones (meshuggah's for instance is tight as hell). I'm not sure on the model names, but the new line 6 guitar amps in my local music shop are very impressive, at first. after a while of playing, though, something resonates in my head which is just nauseating, and I start hearing the digital tones after a lot of sustained notes and bends. the cleans are very glossy and nice to listen to at first, but it's the same as the distortion, after a while it gets a bit much and you start hearing the little nuances.

[umph]

[quote name='ped' post='862779' date='Jun 9 2010, 11:50 PM']So which of mine is the Line6?

To be honest I think most people don't spend enough time learning how to get the best out of them. I was the same - heard them at shows and couldn't get anything but fuzz and crap out of them and totally wrote them off. I was given an XT Pro in a deal and thought I would instantly sell it on, assuming it would sound horrible. After spending weeks and weeks learning the ins and outs of the thing I started to find that it really could do anything you wanted if you knew how to approach getting that sound. It needed to be teamed up with a poweramp and decent speaker, obviously, as does any amplifier, but as a pre-amp I think it's amazing.

I still prefer the Vbass for its unique functions but this whole digital VS analogue thing is completely beyond me, at least, having owned the best of both camps and ending up sounding the same with all of them.

ped[/quote]

is it the second? gonna feel like a twat if i get this wrong hoho,

also couldn't really hear the bass on the first one since all i could hear was the click track on my laptop speakers.

Edited June 9, 2010 by umph

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='ped' post='862779' date='Jun 9 2010, 11:50 PM']After spending weeks and weeks learning the ins and outs of the thing

sounding the same with all of them.[/quote]

[ThomBassmonkey]

For solid state amps, they do a fair job. Something trying to be something, will never be the same as that actual thing being it's self, because it just won't be, but that's not to say that it won't do an equally good job, just slightly different.

Emulators are never as good as valve amps though. I played a gig recently where the guitarist from another band had his own monitors and laptop (not just a POD into the PA) and used a setting that was supposed to sound like a Mesa (our guitarist uses...a Mesa). To be fair, the sound wasn't awful, it was maybe 90% of the sound of the real Mesa, but as soon as it went into the mix it died a very sudden, obvious death. If you want a valve sound, you need to use valves.

Never really been into valve bass amps though, my experience is with guitar amps.

I've used them to an ok effect in the studio, but there's so much control there. The biggest problem I've seen with them in live use (and why I'd never use one) is that they vary so much in mixes, it's not like an amp that's roughly the same every gig and I'm not prepared to sit down and re-EQ/write every patch I use for every gig.

[LukeFRC]

I had a POD.
It was great sounded brill.

Didn't have any problems with the sounds it kicked out. The modeling was amazing really if you think about it.
I spent ages making my own patches.

But live i couldnt live with it. something about how it reacted, how it sounded and attacked and decayed the notes, and the way it handled the top end. It didnt feel right.
Would I use a POD live? No. unless there wasnt an amp/ i couldnt carry one but had foldback and then it would be fine.

I also found i was always building patches that really just tried to sound like the preamp I had just byepassed!

I swapped it for a lovely fretless bass.

[Marvin]

[quote name='ped' post='862778' date='Jun 9 2010, 11:46 PM']Well I sold 'em all I'm afraid, but I'll give you a quickie at the next bash if you like[/quote]
If that's a pass, I'll warn you now I'm very high maintenance.