Digital Modelling vs The Real Thing

[Tech]

i borrowed a flatmates toneport the other day, for the first time.

the bass tone was incredible - with some fine tuning and post-processing in ableton with good compression etc, i was actually blown away. such a good ampeg sound!

the guitar tone wasn't quite as good as the bass tone but still easily as good as i could have gotten with a mic and a decent marshall.

as for the valve debate... I insisted on buying a valve guitar practice amp (peavey nanovalve, FWIW) and stand by that decision.

[OutToPlayJazz]

[quote name='silddx' post='865945' date='Jun 13 2010, 02:05 PM']Does any of this sound "digital"? What is your opinion of the tones? Does it sound pleasing or irritating to the ears?[/quote]

That's a lovely recording, Nigel Is it some of your stuff? I found the bass was too buried in beneath the mix for my tastes, but it did sound tone modelled, yes. Can't quite explain why, but the notes felt a little too 'fuzzy' around the edges. Not very clearly defined - Some kind of delay in the digital processing or something like that?

I used to find the same thing with my Zoom B2 effects unit. The sounds were all of excellent quality, but there never seemed to be the immediacy you get without any form of effects. The Line 6 system I had solved the delay problem, but the sounds were all very artificial to my ears. Hence, I don't use effects or modelling these days. Just a great quality bass with a great quality amp

Rich.

Edited June 13, 2010 by OutToPlayJazz

[xilddx]

[quote name='Johnston' post='865955' date='Jun 13 2010, 02:16 PM']I can hear the uber fart breaking up at around 200 cyclics an hour:P

Tell me this to the ones who say they can tell the difference between the analogue and digital. Can your audience???

Or maybe more to the point would they care??[/quote]
To my mind, the test is whether it sounds pleasing or not.

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='865968' date='Jun 13 2010, 02:28 PM']That's a lovely recording, Nigel Is it some of your stuff? I found the bass was too buried in beneath the mix for my tastes, but it did sound tone modelled, yes. Can't quite explain why, but the notes felt a little too 'fuzzy' around the edges. Not very clearly defined - Some kind of delay in the digital processing or something like that?

Rich.[/quote]

Yeah, but do you think you would have noticed had he not told you it was a digital amp model?

[OutToPlayJazz]

[quote name='EdwardHimself' post='865971' date='Jun 13 2010, 02:31 PM']Yeah, but do you think you would have noticed had he not told you it was a digital amp model?[/quote]

Quite possibly true, Edward - I would have still picked up on the bass being too quiet and lacking note definition, though.

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='Johnston' post='865955' date='Jun 13 2010, 02:16 PM']Tell me this to the ones who say they can tell the difference between the analogue and digital. Can your audience???

Or maybe more to the point would they care??[/quote]

This. I go to a show and it's pretty difficult to descern any nuances about anyone's tone at all because it's all just so loud you can barely hear what notes they're playing let alone anything else lolz.

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='865976' date='Jun 13 2010, 02:32 PM']Quite possibly true, Edward - I would have still picked up on the bass being too quiet and lacking note definition, though. [/quote]

fair doos, although i think my bass sounds pretty nice and tight on guitar rig.

[xilddx]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='865968' date='Jun 13 2010, 02:28 PM']That's a lovely recording, Nigel Is it some of your stuff? I found the bass was too buried in beneath the mix for my tastes, but it did sound tone modelled, yes. Can't quite explain why, but the notes felt a little too 'fuzzy' around the edges. Not very clearly defined - Some kind of delay in the digital processing or something like that?

Rich.[/quote]
Thanks Rich I'm not happy with the mix either. I knocked it together over the last couple of days and rushed it a bit. I was a bit over the top with the effects too, there's a lot of delay, reverb and flanger. It's not mastered, that's just the tracks mixed, no master compression or anything.

I'll hold my comments on the sound for now, I'm interested in what people's perceptions are as to whether they think it's digital or the real thing. Although it's recorded to a digital desk and it's an MP3.

Thanks again.

EDIT: I'm not just talking about the bass, sorry I should have said, I played the guitar too. The drums are an Alesis SR16 though. I think the reason the bass sounds a bit undefined is because it's a fretless with black nylon tapes on. It has very little attack and a fairly fast decay.

Edited June 13, 2010 by silddx

[xilddx]

[quote name='EdwardHimself' post='865971' date='Jun 13 2010, 02:31 PM']Yeah, but do you think you would have noticed had he not told you it was a digital amp model?[/quote]
I haven't told you it's a digital amp model

[Marvin]

Mrs Marvin said, and I quote ' it sounds like it's been farted about with!' But she's a euphonium player, so what does she know (well a lot actually and she's got a handy right hook! )

I think though that may have more to do with DI and not micing amps, possibly, as she said she didn't feel any feel from where it was recorded 'sounds like it's gone right to the desk' she said. Not very well explained but I hope you get the gist.

For me it did sound a little, well clinical. But let me have more of a think and I may come up with a better description.

Edited June 13, 2010 by Marvin

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='silddx' post='865945' date='Jun 13 2010, 02:05 PM']Does any of this sound "digital"? What is your opinion of the tones? Does it sound pleasing or irritating to the ears?[/quote]

Definitely doesn't sound like a valve amp in the room with me. Sounds like an MP3, digitally encoded. I could take a photo of an old masterpiece, and scan it, print it on a decent printer, then post a photo of that in 800x600 and you probably could see the difference between the original photo in 800x600. Doesn't mean that print out is gonna fool anyone into thinking it is a real painting.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Marvin' post='865989' date='Jun 13 2010, 02:39 PM']Mrs Marvin said, and I quote ' it sounds like it's been farted about with!' But she's a euphonium player, so what does she know (well a lot actually and she's got a handy right hook! )

I think though that may have more to do with DI and not micing amps, possibly, as she said she didn't feel any feel from where it was recorded 'sounds like it's gone right to the desk' she said. Not very well explained but I hope you get the gist.

For me it did sound a little, well clinical. But let me have more of a think and I may come up with a better description.[/quote]
Your mrs is absolutely correct, it's all DI. No mics were involved.

[Marvin]

[quote name='silddx' post='865998' date='Jun 13 2010, 02:47 PM']Your mrs is absolutely correct, it's all DI. No mics were involved.[/quote]

Wish I never posted that now, she's like the who's got the cream now .

[xilddx]

[quote name='Marvin' post='866007' date='Jun 13 2010, 02:55 PM']Wish I never posted that now, she's like the who's got the cream now .[/quote]
Well, she's raised a very interesting debate about whether you can tell if an amp's been mic'ed or DIed and if it sounds more pleasing, although as Johnston said, it is all entirely subjective.

[xilddx]

OK, how about this one. Does it sound more like digital, or the real thing? Sorry, this music is a bit heavier

[Mog]

That is really hard to call. Great bass tone, bad production. Really cant say after 3 listens. So which is it?

[deathpanda]

[quote name='silddx' post='866025' date='Jun 13 2010, 03:13 PM']OK, how about this one. Does it sound more like digital, or the real thing? Sorry, this music is a bit heavier [/quote]

the guitar tones sound like amplitube or guitar rig 4, the bass is always hard to tell in the mix, but I would say digital (which is probably why in the end, it doesn't matter).

[xilddx]

Agree with Mog, very poor production.

I'm wondering it the fact it's an mp3 means it's all going to sound digital to some extent. But Follow was all the real thing, mic'ed amps on guitar and bass, recorded to a Studer 2-inch tape machine. The guitar was a weird cheap tranny karaoke amp with Boss a DS-1 distortion. Bass was Stingray into (I think) an Ampeg.

[umph]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='865968' date='Jun 13 2010, 02:28 PM']That's a lovely recording, Nigel Is it some of your stuff? I found the bass was too buried in beneath the mix for my tastes, but it did sound tone modelled, yes. Can't quite explain why, but the notes felt a little too 'fuzzy' around the edges. Not very clearly defined - Some kind of delay in the digital processing or something like that?

I used to find the same thing with my Zoom B2 effects unit. The sounds were all of excellent quality, but there never seemed to be the immediacy you get without any form of effects. The Line 6 system I had solved the delay problem, but the sounds were all very artificial to my ears. Hence, I don't use effects or modelling these days. Just a great quality bass with a great quality amp

Rich.[/quote]

+1 i thought he was refering to the guitar being digital i didn't even notice any bass on the clip with laptop speakers

[Mr. Foxen]

Just for comparison.

[xilddx]

[quote name='umph' post='866080' date='Jun 13 2010, 03:58 PM']+1 i thought he was refering to the guitar being digital i didn't even notice any bass on the clip with laptop speakers[/quote]
The bass is low in the mix, and with very little high end. You're right umph, it was primarily the guitar I was referring to, I should have made that point clearer.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='866085' date='Jun 13 2010, 04:00 PM']Just for comparison.[/quote]
Woah! What the hell is that?!

That's a whole lot of music compressed to 1.6 Meg!

Is that how it's supposed to sound? I might be being a total dumb arse but are you demonstrating what an mp3 at a tiny bit rate sounds like?

No offence intended if that's how your band actually sounds. I did a gig recently with two guys who sounded a bit like that.

[Mog]

Just gonna jump back in quickly.
For studio use high end digital gear will work fine [u]IF[/u] the studio is up to standard and the production and mastering are top notch.I know a guy who uses a Digitech 2120 Artist for his recordings and it sounds great. Better than his 5150 combo and an Sm58 IMO.

For live work, with a little tweaking, something like a Pod X3 is more than suitable as the punters and most of the musicians wont know the difference. The problem is on larger stages if there is a lack of monitors.

Its all about what you are willing to spend at the end of the day.
Modelling: At one end you have boss or zoom, at the the other Eventide.
Amps: Low end you have say Behringer, at the high end something like an Eden or Glockenklang.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Mog' post='866121' date='Jun 13 2010, 04:30 PM']Just gonna jump back in quickly.
For studio use high end digital gear will work fine [u]IF[/u] the studio is up to standard and the production and mastering are top notch.I know a guy who uses a Digitech 2120 Artist for his recordings and it sounds great. Better than his 5150 combo and an Sm58 IMO.

For live work, with a little tweaking, something like a Pod X3 is more than suitable as the punters and most of the musicians wont know the difference. The problem is on larger stages if there is a lack of monitors.

Its all about what you are willing to spend at the end of the day.
Modelling: At one end you have boss or zoom, at the the other Eventide.
Amps: Low end you have say Behringer, at the high end something like an Eden or Glockenklang.[/quote]
I agree with your first and last points

But I have never been on a large stage with inadequate monitoring. Been on a few small ones with almost no monitoring, I just have to put up with that once in a while.

[Mog]

Very true Silddx. it is uncommon. Happened us twice. There was no monitors for the drummer in both cases. Easily sorted. Bottom bass cab was turned towards him and the guitard ran an extra 2x12 and placed it facing the kit also. I'm thinking about going sans backline in the Academy (Dublin) next week. Should be good for a laugh!! If Geddy can do it!!