Digital Modelling vs The Real Thing

[xilddx]

[quote name='Mog' post='866147' date='Jun 13 2010, 04:46 PM']Very true Silddx. it is uncommon. Happened us twice. There was no monitors for the drummer in both cases. Easily sorted. Bottom bass cab was turned towards him and the guitard ran an extra 2x12 and placed it facing the kit also. I'm thinking about going sans backline in the Academy (Dublin) next week. Should be good for a laugh!! If Geddy can do it!![/quote]
Absolutely!

There is no way we could play the Krupa gigs without decent monitoring as we use backing tracks which the drummer needs in a sidefill. The Kit gigs are generally smaller venues and sometimes monitoring, the whole PA in fact, can be a bit crap. But it's all live so we can get away with it and still put on a good show.

Good luck at the Academy gig mate!

[escholl]

A good recording takes, among other things, a good room, a good mic and good mic technique. Given that the average person (myself included) will lack one or all of those, and amp modelling has come a long way, it's not really a surprise that many feel they achieve better results with digital modelling in a recording situation.

Like I said before, I prefer analogue in most situations but ultimately I will use whatever I feel will give me the absolute best sound in any given situation. I suppose there's a lot more I could type here, but I cba to be honest. Use whatever makes you happy, just don't be annoying about it.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='silddx' post='866096' date='Jun 13 2010, 04:11 PM']Woah! What the hell is that?!

That's a whole lot of music compressed to 1.6 Meg!

Is that how it's supposed to sound? I might be being a total dumb arse but are you demonstrating what an mp3 at a tiny bit rate sounds like?

No offence intended if that's how your band actually sounds. I did a gig recently with two guys who sounded a bit like that.[/quote]

Mostly demonstrating that a digital format is not really a great means to judge if a sound 'sounds' analogue. That was a lot of nice valve amps, and a lot of nice mics in a room. Went to digital eventually, but rather higher bitrate than any mp3.

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='Mog' post='866121' date='Jun 13 2010, 04:30 PM']Just gonna jump back in quickly.
For studio use high end digital gear will work fine [u]IF[/u] the studio is up to standard and the production and mastering are top notch.I know a guy who uses a Digitech 2120 Artist for his recordings and it sounds great. Better than his 5150 combo and an Sm58 IMO.

For live work, with a little tweaking, something like a Pod X3 is more than suitable as the punters and most of the musicians wont know the difference. The problem is on larger stages if there is a lack of monitors.

Its all about what you are willing to spend at the end of the day.
Modelling: At one end you have boss or zoom, at the the other Eventide.
Amps: Low end you have say Behringer, at the high end something like an Eden or Glockenklang.[/quote]

+1 you can make almost anything sound amazing with the right studio gear and techniques.

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='866192' date='Jun 13 2010, 05:29 PM']Mostly demonstrating that a digital format is not really a great means to judge if a sound 'sounds' analogue. That was a lot of nice valve amps, and a lot of nice mics in a room. Went to digital eventually, but rather higher bitrate than any mp3.[/quote]

I don't think that is really fair because it certainly was a lot more low fi sounding than most mp3s i've heard.

[hubrad]

My take on it all is this: I use a Trace Elliot head, which I know quite a few folks don't like tonally; I can get 'my' sound(s) on it nicely. Hence that works for me.
While I prefer the analogue idea in general, if I can get 'my' sound(s) on a digital setup - and, let's face it, nearly all of us will be recorded on digital gear these days - then I don't care either whether it's analogue or digital or even what the name on the front says.
Having said that, if you need a specific amp and cab combination for 'your' sound then that's fine by me.

[xilddx]

Well, after nearly four years of using the POD X3 LIVE on stage and in the studio and two years after starting this thread, I am still perfectly delighted with it. I think my guitar and bass sounds are lovely and although I have been tempted to get a power amp and a Barefaced midget just for stage monitoring, I haven't and don't really see the need.

I get serious thrills from my sounds, and I have no need nor desire to use anything else, unless Line 6 bring out the HD equivalent of the X3 Live.

I also still believe that no-one can discern between digital and analogue and that digital modelling is the way forward. More flexibility, portability, reliability, power and control.

I can't see any reason to be using such a limited and old fashioned artefact as an analogue bass or guitar amplifier and speaker cabinet either miced or DIed into the PA or recording device.

Edited April 11, 2012 by silddx

[urb]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1334139300' post='1611346']
Well, after nearly four years of using the POD X3 LIVE on stage and in the studio and two years after starting this thread, I am still perfectly delighted with it. I think my guitar and bass sounds are lovely and although I have been tempted to get a power amp and a Barefaced midget just for stage monitoring, I haven't and don't really see the need.

I get serious thrills from my sounds, and I have no need nor desire to use anything else, unless Line 6 bring out the HD equivalent of the X3 Live.

I also still believe that no-one can discern between digital and analogue and that digital modelling is the way forward. More flexibility, portability, reliability, power and control.

I can't see any reason to be using such a limited and old fashioned artefact as an analogue bass or guitar amplifier and speaker cabinet either miced or DIed into the PA or recording device.
[/quote]

Funnily enough I'm kind of on the same page with you on this Nige - I'm increasingly going straight into my laptop and using all the virtual signal processing chains available there - and am finding I can get some wonderful tones there - using a basic amp/cab combo is fine for straight up live performances with a jazz/funk/whatever combo - but just to add that 'the real thing' surely is just the sound of your instrument - which if plugged in direct to PA or mixing desk - in theory should produce a great sound... depending on the greatness of the instrument... it's all about context I think but one should not be afraid of embracing digital technology - it's about controlling the technology, not letting IT control you!

[cheddatom]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1334139300' post='1611346']
I can't see any reason to be using such a limited and old fashioned artefact as an analogue bass or guitar amplifier and speaker cabinet either miced or DIed into the PA or recording device.
[/quote]

I agree with everything except this. It's fun!! I have played gigs with no bass amp - just a bit of bass through the monitors. It sounds great out front through the PA but crap on stage. It's more fun when you have a great sound on stage. I used to carry around a rather large rig to gigs where the bass rig was shared, just because I wanted my own sound on stage, because it makes it more fun.

Likewise at rehearsal - I need a bass rig, otherwise i'll have no fun

[xilddx]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1334142012' post='1611412']
I agree with everything except this. It's fun!! I have played gigs with no bass amp - just a bit of bass through the monitors. It sounds great out front through the PA but crap on stage. It's more fun when you have a great sound on stage. I used to carry around a rather large rig to gigs where the bass rig was shared, just because I wanted my own sound on stage, because it makes it more fun.

Likewise at rehearsal - I need a bass rig, otherwise i'll have no fun
[/quote]

Ah, but all you need is a big monitor. An analogue bass rig is not the only way to have fun.

[cheddatom]

sure, a big monitor would do, but not all venues have them, so best to carry one around. What sort of big monitors would be appropriate for supplying a good on stage sound? Oh yeh, a bass amp!!

I don't think it matters whether the amp is digital or not but I want an amp to rehearse and gig with, that's all

[Ed_S]

As a fan of heavy rock and metal, I like the visual impact of a full backline and, knowing how difficult it can sometimes be, respect the effort put into making it all fit, work together and sound good. I guess I even respect the way people deal on the spot with real equipment suffering real problems. Digital modelling just doesn't have the same draw for me; I find it quite impersonal. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it can't sound good (I have an X3 Pro and know there are some good sounds in there) and in a recording studio that's all that matters, but in a live context I'd go a long way to keep my backline and that of my guitarists, faults and all.

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1334142012' post='1611412']
I need a bass rig, otherwise i'll have no fun
[/quote]

..a universal truth if ever I heard one!

[BigRedX]

IMO devices like the Pod have nothing to do with digital vs analogue and are about flexibility and recall.

There are two important things:
1. Do you like the sound it produces and is that sound appropriate for your music?
2. If you need more than one sound, is it easy to change and recall your sounds?

I've been using programmable tone-shaping devices for over 20 years since I got my Roland GP-8 a (mostly) analogue programable multi-effects unit which is still part of my guitar set up. For me how these devices work is irrelevant so long as the sound that comes out of the output is one I can use.

These days my bass rig contains a Pod and an amp with valves in it. I haven't dispensed with on-stage amp and speakers for my bass because most of the venues I'm still playing don't have sufficiently good monitoring systems to give me a bass sound that I can be happy with, and IME every extra instrument you put through small monitoring systems makes it harder to hear the vocals (which is the most important thing).

[xilddx]

BRX and Ed, totally know where you're coming from. And I would consider getting a powered monitor for stage.

It was the digital versus analogue debate that started me off, I've heard far too many people dissing digital, claiming it sounds crap and whatever, which is complete bollocks, as we are aware.

[peteb]

[b]True story[/b] - a good friend of mine is a very useful guitar player who plays in a band that gigs a lot (and I do mean a lot). However, he is a touch on the lazy side and he used to use a digital combo because he couldn’t be bothered lugging a 4x12 and heavy valve amp around. He used to swear that his set-up was as good if not better as those with boogie half stack or whatever other guitar players playing in similar bands were using despite this obviously not being the case and several people informing of this fact!

So what does our hero do? He gets a more expensive modelling amp, which admittedly does sound pretty good in his front room but still pretty weak in a live situation.

Eventually he bites the bullet and buys a boutique valve amp (only a 1x12 combo thru) and lo and behold he has a great sound that everyone complements him on and he could not be happier….

And the moral of this story….. a modelling type amp may sound fine in a small room on its own but in a live scenario at least, it will never come close to a decent ‘proper’ amp, even if it weighs an awful lot less!

Edited April 12, 2012 by peteb

[dannybuoy]

Really impressive - I'd like to hear that cop a cranked SVT!

[cheddatom]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334250184' post='1613287']
And the moral of this story…..
[/quote]

Your mate couldn't set his digital amp right!

[charic]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334250184' post='1613287']
[b]True story[/b] - a good friend of mine is a very useful guitar player who plays in a band that gigs a lot (and I do mean a lot). However, he is a touch on the lazy side and he used to use a digital combo because he couldn’t be bothered lugging a 4x12 and heavy valve amp around. He used to swear that his set-up was as good if not better as those with boogie half stack or whatever other guitar players playing in similar bands were using despite this obviously not being the case and several people informing of this fact!

So what does our hero do? He gets a more expensive modelling amp, which admittedly does sound pretty good in his front room but still pretty weak in a live situation.

Eventually he bites the bullet and buys a boutique valve amp (only a 1x12 combo thru) and lo and behold he has a great sound that everyone complements him on and he could not be happier….

And the moral of this story….. a modelling type amp may sound fine in a small room on its own but in a live scenario at least, it will never come close to a decent ‘proper’ amp, even if it weighs an awful lot less!
[/quote]

That's strange because periphery sounded pretty damn massive at Wembley Arena

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334250184' post='1613287']
[b]True story[/b] - a good friend of mine is a very useful guitar player who plays in a band that gigs a lot (and I do mean a lot). However, he is a touch on the lazy side and he used to use a digital combo because he couldn’t be bothered lugging a 4x12 and heavy valve amp around. He used to swear that his set-up was as good if not better as those with boogie half stack or whatever other guitar players playing in similar bands were using despite this obviously not being the case and several people informing of this fact!

So what does our hero do? He gets a more expensive modelling amp, which admittedly does sound pretty good in his front room but still pretty weak in a live situation.

Eventually he bites the bullet and buys a boutique valve amp (only a 1x12 combo thru) and lo and behold he has a great sound that everyone complements him on and he could not be happier….

And the moral of this story….. a modelling type amp may sound fine in a small room on its own but in a live scenario at least, it will never come close to a decent ‘proper’ amp, even if it weighs an awful lot less!
[/quote]

I had a bass pod and used to run it into the effect return of an amp and take a signal for the PA out too.
In my experience it sounded great out front but I found it just so hard to play with like there was one too many things compressing and Eq ing my sound, so I swapped it for another bass!
Conversely I have a wee line 6 guitar combo- and I am quite liking that

[xilddx]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334250184' post='1613287']
[b]True story[/b] - a good friend of mine is a very useful guitar player who plays in a band that gigs a lot (and I do mean a lot). However, he is a touch on the lazy side and he used to use a digital combo because he couldn’t be bothered lugging a 4x12 and heavy valve amp around. He used to swear that his set-up was as good if not better as those with boogie half stack or whatever other guitar players playing in similar bands were using despite this obviously not being the case and several people informing of this fact!

So what does our hero do? He gets a more expensive modelling amp, which admittedly does sound pretty good in his front room but still pretty weak in a live situation.

Eventually he bites the bullet and buys a boutique valve amp (only a 1x12 combo thru) and lo and behold he has a great sound that everyone complements him on and he could not be happier….

[b]And the moral of this story….. a modelling type amp may sound fine in a small room on its own but in a live scenario at least, it will never come close to a decent ‘proper’ amp, even if it weighs an awful lot less![/b]
[/quote]

That's frankly, absolute bollocks, Pete. Your guitarist doesn't know what he's doing.

[Bilbo]

Dare I say it, and I swing back and fore between 'amp modelling is the best thing since sliced bread' and 'but its still not the real thing', I have kind of reached the point where I have bigger fish to fry and can't be bothered with all the knob twiddling digital gear requires. Having all this kit that can make an E barre chord sound a million differnt ways like a million different guitars through a million different amps doesn't change the fact that it is an E barre chord. Get the sounds anyway you want; 98% of the listening public, including most musos, won't be able to tell the difference, especially if htey are listening to an ipod on the bus !! I know I can't. But I can tell when the music is derivative, predictable and boring!

Can you get a digital piece of kit tham makes my cheesy jazz compositions more interesting/advanced? I'll have two!!

[xilddx]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1334308485' post='1614079']
Dare I say it, and I swing back and fore between 'amp modelling is the best thing since sliced bread' and 'but its still not the real thing', I have kind of reached the point where I have bigger fish to fry and can't be bothered with all the knob twiddling digital gear requires. Having all this kit that can make an E barre chord sound a million differnt ways like a million different guitars through a million different amps doesn't change the fact that it is an E barre chord. Get the sounds anyway you want; 98% of the listening public, including most musos, won't be able to tell the difference, especially if htey are listening to an ipod on the bus !! I know I can't. But I can tell when the music is derivative, predictable and boring!

Can you get a digital piece of kit tham makes my cheesy jazz compositions more interesting/advanced? I'll have two!!
[/quote]

I know what you mean, but I hear sounds in my head and I can spend ten munites with my POD and almost always get those sounds and make them good for real playing situations..

[peteb]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1334308477' post='1614078']
That's frankly, absolute bollocks, Pete. Your guitarist doesn't know what he's doing.
[/quote]
Whether he knows what he is doing is one thing (please bear in mind that he has 25 years gigging experience under his belt) but undoubtedly the valve amp sounds [b]much [/b]better!

FWIW - I hate the pod and most modeling amps live, I think that they are really unconvincing. However, life is about compromises and I accept that in certain situations they have their uses. However, please don't kid yourself that they are as good as a decent amp in a big room - they're not..........

[xilddx]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334310539' post='1614140']
Whether he knows what he is doing is one thing (please bear in mind that he has 25 years gigging experience under his belt) but undoubtedly the valve amp sounds [b]much [/b]better!

FWIW - I hate the pod and most modeling amps live, I think that they are really unconvincing. However, life is about compromises and I accept that in certain situations they have their uses. However, please don't kid yourself that they are as good as a decent amp in a big room - they're not..........
[/quote]

I have 29 years of gigging experience in my leather trousers, so f*** 'im.

On your second point, my POD sounds so f***ing cool live (and in the studio), with guitar or bass. I heard my guitar through a decent sized PA last Saturday as it happens, it sounded glorious. The sound guy had a very large grin when I ripped into Whole Lotta Love in the soundcheck. And my clean sounds were rich and delicious. YMMV.

[Wil]

I'm also still utterly convinced a proper valve amp working hard sounds better than any modelling gear that I've heard or used (which is a POD, and assorted Sansamps). I wouldnt bother carting a heavy AC30 about with me, if I had anything smaller/lighter that sounded as good.

The kit is getting better all the time (thanks Beatles) but I remain to be converted.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Wil