Digital Modelling vs The Real Thing

[51m0n]

Buy a big box, stick the right label on the side and use it to rack mount a POD in the back.

No one at your gigs would be any the wiser, and you'd need to move less weitgh, not be troubled by the vagiaries of valves (age, temp etc etc).

The OP was about whether or not the sound pf digital modelling passed muster live. The show is a different thing, where wearing the right trainers, having the right tatoos and hairdo count as much as having the right names on the pile of heavy boxes you carried through the door.

People all say that none of that matters as much as putting on a great show, but they just aren't able to do the show without the big heavy boxes.

I like running a real rig at a gig, mainly because I like the resultant control I get over stage volume for me, and I like all the flashing lights, and the snoby name, and mainly the sound of my gear. But I could provide FOH with as good a sound using a digital modelling system if that floated my boat. There is no reason why anyone couldnt at all.

[Mr. Foxen]

People at my gigs would know. Not all gigs are the same.

[51m0n]

How would they know exactly?

[Mr. Foxen]

Because they aren't stupid, and didn't come to my gig to have their intelligence insulted. Maybe its a theme of my somewhat specialist genre, not having contempt for your audience.

[xilddx]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1334398722' post='1615597']
How would they know exactly?
[/quote]

Because the gear for Foxen's band is more important than the music?

[Beer of the Bass]

I've not seen Mr F's band, but I get the impression that the stacks of mismatched and obscure old valve gear favoured by the Doom lot are kind of like an art installation in themselves. So their presence is part of the performance, even if it might be possible to create that sound by other means. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just a different approach from many other performances.
Myself, I enjoy using simple valve amps, especially for guitar, because there isn't as much to dial in while I'm using them. Once I've got a sound I like, I can more or less forget about the gear and play some music. I haven't messed with modelling gear for bass, but I've played guitar through some of the Line 6 amps in rehearsal spaces. I find that the presets can sound like an exaggerated version of the amp they're trying to model, presumably so they sound recognisable, but I guess any serious user will take the time to tweak the presets to their taste. I don't see the need for modelling gear to exactly recreate the sound of older amps, it just needs to sound musical and be enjoyable to use and listen to.

Edited April 14, 2012 by Beer of the Bass

[peteb]

[color=#222222]It seems to me that there is an awful lot of justification going in this thread. For example, Silldx mentioned that the engineer at a recording session didn’t use the best mic to record the vocalist so that he could get a better live performance by allowing her to play her keyboard at the same time. His mate then piles in and says this was, in fact, an inspired choice and gave some spurious reason that her voice is somehow better suited to the lesser mic. This, of course, is b0110cks – the engineer was forced to compromise and didn’t use the better mic for practical reasons.[/color]
[color=#222222][font="Times New Roman"][size="3"] [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#222222]If you are trying to get to gigs on public transport or you have a hairdresser’s car that you can’t carry any gear in, then a pod seems a practical solution, as is carrying one bass in a gigbag. If you then work out how to get the best out of it you may then manage convince yourself that you got the pod because it is better than the amp it attempts to imitate, rather than the real reason, which is that you didn’t want to have to lug a heavy amp around![/color]
[color=#222222][font="Times New Roman"][size="3"] [/size][/font][/color]

[xilddx]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334402003' post='1615672']
[color=#222222]It seems to me that there is an awful lot of justification going in this thread. For example, Silldx mentioned that the engineer at a recording session didn’t use the best mic to record the vocalist so that he could get a better live performance by allowing her to play her keyboard at the same time. His mate then piles in and says this was, in fact, an inspired choice and gave some spurious reason that her voice is somehow better suited to the lesser mic. This, of course, is b0110cks – the engineer was forced to compromise and didn’t use the better mic for practical reasons.[/color]

[color=#222222]If you are trying to get to gigs on public transport or you have a hairdresser’s car that you can’t carry any gear in, then a pod seems a practical solution, as is carrying one bass in a gigbag. If you then work out how to get the best out of it you may then manage convince yourself that you got the pod because it is better than the amp it attempts to imitate, rather than the real reason, which is that you didn’t want to have to lug a heavy amp around![/color]

[/quote]

I had a valve Fender Twin, and a bunch of expensive effects. The POD is way more versatile and reliable, portable, powerful, etc. But the fact is, I LOVE the sounds I get from from it. It really is that simple. I don't need to justify anything other than that. You are clutching at straws Pete. I do understand why people are distrustful of new technology, however.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1334399276' post='1615613']
Because the gear for Foxen's band is more important than the music?
[/quote]

It is the music. It is all one thing. This is that disconnected thing people use as a criticism of digital gear. You are thinking or your equipment as an obstacle not a means of expression.

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1334400740' post='1615639']
I've not seen Mr F's band, but I get the impression that the stacks of mismatched and obscure old valve gear favoured by the Doom lot are kind of like an art installation in themselves. So their presence is part of the performance, even if it might be possible to create that sound by other means. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just a different approach from many other performances.
[/quote]

Dunno what you mean by mismatched. But the dynamic sound field (as in sound changes as you move, and the dynamic of the instrument is also dependent on the position of the player) presented by multi amp and speaker setups is very much part of the live experience both as a listener and a player. Obviously some are happy to pile up tons of amps and be good to go, but a bunch of time spending soundcheck wandering about an finding the places where feedback happens and doesn't is something I find a necessity. Sunn O))) have an 8 hour sound check for the purpose. also, the smell of hot valves is a commented feature, which can't be simulated, although I keep my amps very clean for reliability, so they don't tend to smell as much as I do at a gig.

I think it is silddx in the band with the sitar player? I have got the impression, possibly mistaken, that she and her instrument are the main focus of the music. Going without real amps would be like maybe her rocking a variax on sitar setting, or one of those electric sitars, or maybe being a recording.

[peteb]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1334402458' post='1615683']
I had a valve Fender Twin, and a bunch of expensive effects. The POD is way more versatile and reliable, portable, powerful, etc. But the fact is, I LOVE the sounds I get from from it. It really is that simple. I don't need to justify anything other than that. You are clutching at straws Pete. I do understand why people are distrustful of new technology, however.
[/quote]
I don't think that I am clutching at straws nor am I distrustful of new technology. I remember the days when we used to go out with a van full of really big and heavy PA gear that you piled up to the ceiling. Now, you can get better results from a powered 1x10 cab each side and one 1x12 sub. I have no wish to go back to using a ton of outmoded gear when the newer lighter kit is better. I often gig with a mark bass head these days - it is not quite as good as my mesa boogie, but it is still a great amp and a hell of a lot lighter!

Whatever, people should use whatever works best for them (compromise or not). All I can say is that in my world of loud guitars and Bonham worshiping drummers - modelling amps just do not cut it! Lots of guys have tried to use Line 6 amps, etc but they all seem to get rid of them pretty quickly, must be a reason for that.....

Edited April 14, 2012 by peteb

[ThomBassmonkey]

CD players re-create a sound, not manipulate it (they do to some extent of course, but the general idea is a re-creation rather than alteration). I don't see them as the same thing at all.

I'm not saying all digital effects are bad either, there's plenty of great effects out there that aren't possible without some kind of digital processing.

I'm not saying "digital processing sounds crap." I'm saying that in my experience and opinion, they don't sound as good. I don't like Ashdown amps either, it's just my opinion based on what I've heard. There's no basis in fact for what I'm saying, it's my opinion and experience that live, modelling doesn't fit into the mix (especially on distorted sounds) as a standard amp. The same as scooped tones and transistor guitar amps for distortion.

I'm definitely not attacking DACs, if DAC wasn't up to the task, we wouldn't be using digital recordings.

If engineers have problems with people maxing their amps, that's a problem with the people, not the amps. I very rarely get told to alter the volume on my amp and when I do it's as often up as down.

It does pain me when I bother posting my opinion in a thread like this then people start jumping on each other calling posts "nonsense" and the like. It's all opinion, this is a forum for art. There's facts involved but whether or not someone likes the sound of something is pure opinion and it's absurd to have people calling each other wrong. I'm sure Silddx and others get great tones from their modelling "rigs", but it's just not for me. Likewise, I'm sure some people don't like Musicman basses and Gallien amps, I wouldn't be afraid to post my opinion, but I'd never tell them they were wrong just because I disagree.

[charic]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334402003' post='1615672']
It seems to me that there is an awful lot of justification going in this thread. For example, Silldx mentioned that the engineer at a recording session didn’t use the best mic to record the vocalist so that he could get a better live performance by allowing her to play her keyboard at the same time. His mate then piles in and says this was, in fact, an inspired choice and gave some spurious reason that her voice is somehow better suited to the lesser mic. This, of course, is b0110cks – the engineer was forced to compromise and didn’t use the better mic for practical reasons.
[/quote]

5imon is talking far from bo11ocks, different mics suit different people.

A "better" mic purely means picking up more frequencies and flatter. IIRC (I can't be bothered to go back and check), the engineer even said she wouldn't sound as good although this is more than likely because it is much harder to dial in frequencies that are not there rather than cut frequencies that are.

All 5imons statement was saying is that a 58 would suit her voice well from his experience.

You really do seem to be clutching at straws as well as ignoring some of the posts which well and truly prove that you can not be right.

[charic]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' timestamp='1334404521' post='1615722']
CD players re-create a sound, not manipulate it (they do to some extent of course, but the general idea is a re-creation rather than alteration). I don't see them as the same thing at all.

I'm not saying all digital effects are bad either, there's plenty of great effects out there that aren't possible without some kind of digital processing.

I'm not saying "digital processing sounds crap." I'm saying that in my experience and opinion, they don't sound as good. I don't like Ashdown amps either, it's just my opinion based on what I've heard. There's no basis in fact for what I'm saying, it's my opinion and experience that live, modelling doesn't fit into the mix (especially on distorted sounds) as a standard amp. The same as scooped tones and transistor guitar amps for distortion.

I'm definitely not attacking DACs, if DAC wasn't up to the task, we wouldn't be using digital recordings.

If engineers have problems with people maxing their amps, that's a problem with the people, not the amps. I very rarely get told to alter the volume on my amp and when I do it's as often up as down.

It does pain me when I bother posting my opinion in a thread like this then people start jumping on each other calling posts "nonsense" and the like. It's all opinion, this is a forum for art. There's facts involved but whether or not someone likes the sound of something is pure opinion and it's absurd to have people calling each other wrong. I'm sure Silddx and others get great tones from their modelling "rigs", but it's just not for me. Likewise, I'm sure some people don't like Musicman basses and Gallien amps, I wouldn't be afraid to post my opinion, but I'd never tell them they were wrong just because I disagree.
[/quote]

So would you go as far to admit that rather than say modelling amps don't sound as good instead say that you havn't heard one that has convinced you yet?

Lets introduce a shade of grey into this black and white discussion

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1334404684' post='1615724']
So would you go as far to admit that rather than say modelling amps don't sound as good instead say that you havn't heard one that has convinced you yet?

Lets introduce a shade of grey into this black and white discussion
[/quote]

More than happy to say that. If I heard a processing unit for a guitar that sounded as good distorted as an actual valve guitar amp (particularly along the Mesa/Engl lines), I'd be on the net straight away trying to find out if I could afford one. I'm sure they're not far away now, if they don't already exist. The clean tones especially can sound great (which is why I have no problem believing that people like Silddx can sound good in a band), I just prefer the sound of my GKs for now.

Edited April 14, 2012 by ThomBassmonkey

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1334404575' post='1615723']
A "better" mic purely means picking up more frequencies and flatter. IIRC (I can't be bothered to go back and check), the engineer even said she wouldn't sound as good although this is more than likely because it is much harder to dial in frequencies that are not there rather than cut frequencies that are.

All 5imons statement was saying is that a 58 would suit her voice well from his experience.
[/quote]

Microphones is a whole other tone thing, Another transducer with accompanying limitations, which you work with, hence recording engineers having a collection of mics, the more you can use the limitations to your advantage when recording, the less post recording manipulation you have to do, which is the boring and expensive bit. Mostly "better" = more suited to the situation, which flat response may not be.

[Beer of the Bass]

Going to gigs as a punter, there are times where I get a kick out of seeing performers playing the hell out of unwieldy, impractical but "real" kit against all practical considerations of that choice. It's not so much amps that I get this with, but if I hear a great keyboard player and they've dragged along a proper Hammond and Leslie because that's what they love playing, the performance feels like something special. I recognise that this is not particularly logical, and if you blindfolded me they could be playing a Nord and I wouldn't know. With music being an art form, how the performer and audience feel about the tools and process used in the performance can be as important as the empirical properties of those tools.
Having said that, there will be performers who find all the modelling technology inspiring and enabling, who will turn in their best performances using said technology.

[thodrik]

In live situations, any time I thought I would save weight and just take a Sansamp/Pod to a gig, the venue would invariably have a poor monitor set up, leaving me unable to actually hear myself. The best way to solve this problem was of course to buy my own monitor and bring to gigs, giving me a consistency of sound. However that seemed pointless as I already owned a bass amp. With a portable bass combo I can at least go to a gig without any real monitoring problems on stage.
So generally I will choose an amp for practical reasons before I even take the sound into account. Of course, at the gig, I've often had other bass players playing through Pods/Sansamps if they could use my amp 'as a monitor' as there are not enough monitors in the venue.

[charic]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1334405334' post='1615734']
Microphones is a whole other tone thing, Another transducer with accompanying limitations, which you work with, hence recording engineers having a collection of mics, the more you can use the limitations to your advantage when recording, the less post recording manipulation you have to do, which is the boring and expensive bit. Mostly "better" = more suited to the situation, which flat response may not be.
[/quote]

I meant "better" without taking into account the sound source. Probably should have clarified that.

Plus you touched on the thesis of the dissertation I did at uni which eventually I will finish the research for to a degree that I can take it to the appropriate companies (although finding them in the UK is proving difficult)

[charic]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' timestamp='1334405262' post='1615732']
More than happy to say that. If I heard a processing unit for a guitar that sounded as good distorted as an actual valve guitar amp (particularly along the Mesa/Engl lines), I'd be on the net straight away trying to find out if I could afford one. I'm sure they're not far away now, if they don't already exist. The clean tones especially can sound great (which is why I have no problem believing that people like Silddx can sound good in a band), I just prefer the sound of my GKs for now.
[/quote]



I don't reckon it'll be to long till they're out there. I know the fractal stuff is considered "close".

Don't expect it to be cheap though

I think a lot of the problem currently stems from trying to emulate 100 different amps sounding OK rather than trying to emulate 1 amp sounding exactly the same. But in that situation most people would say "buy the original" and I would tend to agree. Although if someone released an amp that could sound exactly like a mesa, engl, marshall and orange amp (randomly picked off the top of my head, insert your top fave amps here ). It would almost certainly fly off the shelf.

[crez5150]

Heard good things about these.......
http://kemper-amps.com/page/render/lang/en/p/184/do/Kemper_Profiling_Amplifier___KPA___Guitar_Amplification_Redefined.html

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1334406728' post='1615765']
Although if someone released an amp that could sound exactly like a mesa, engl, marshall and orange amp (randomly picked off the top of my head, insert your top fave amps here ). It would almost certainly fly off the shelf.
[/quote]

Problem with that it relies on you having a really common favourite amp, and wanting to sound the same as everyone else.

[crez5150]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1334407011' post='1615779']
I posted the andertons review a few pages back
[/quote]

I missed that......

[charic]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1334407444' post='1615791']
Amazing bit of kit. Kills alot of the argument too IMO.
[/quote]

Agreed, incredible stuff!

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyPgBzqKlUs"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyPgBzqKlUs[/url]

[xilddx]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1334402965' post='1615691']
It is the music. It is all one thing. This is that disconnected thing people use as a criticism of digital gear. You are thinking or your equipment as an obstacle not a means of expression.



Dunno what you mean by mismatched. But the dynamic sound field (as in sound changes as you move, and the dynamic of the instrument is also dependent on the position of the player) presented by multi amp and speaker setups is very much part of the live experience both as a listener and a player. Obviously some are happy to pile up tons of amps and be good to go, but a bunch of time spending soundcheck wandering about an finding the places where feedback happens and doesn't is something I find a necessity. Sunn O))) have an 8 hour sound check for the purpose. also, the smell of hot valves is a commented feature, which can't be simulated, although I keep my amps very clean for reliability, so they don't tend to smell as much as I do at a gig.

[b]I think it is silddx in the band with the sitar player? I have got the impression, possibly mistaken, that she and her instrument are the main focus of the music. Going without real amps would be like maybe her rocking a variax on sitar setting, or one of those electric sitars, or maybe being a recording.[/b]
[/quote]

Yeah that's me mate. She does classical raag concerts and it's her and the tabla player, she sometimes uses a Trace Acoustic amp but normally goes direct. The full band is far more contemporary, mixing Balkan, bhangra, rock, ambient, folk, ska, electronica, with a mostly traditional sitar sound. Drums, keys, sax, tabla, guitar, (bass sometimes) and sitar. She goes direct via a Korg tuner and a Boss DS-1 distortion. She has no problem whatever with me and my Strat and the POD DIed. I had also planned to use my acoustic guitar on a few numbers, as she originally wanted, but she was happy with my sounds and told me not to bother.

Also, I do understand where you are coming from with your band, and would agree that what you use is the most suitable for what you do. But please, don't be giving it large with that sh*t about insulting audiences by using modelling rigs, or that they sound inferior to the 'real' thing, because that is just ignorant and misguided. Cheers.

[xilddx]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1334409374' post='1615834'] Agreed, incredible stuff! [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyPgBzqKlUs"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyPgBzqKlUs[/url] [/quote]

Wow! How amazing is that!