Digital Modelling vs The Real Thing

[Dood]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='862004' date='Jun 9 2010, 12:37 PM']Digital clipping is a totally different thing to digitally modelled distortion. Digital clipping occurs from overdriving a digital unit, which is generally a bad idea.[/quote]

+1 Digital clipping could occurr if the unit is set up is configured incorrectly - as you say, if the signal gain was too high. This is not a fault of the unit itself.

[ironside1966]

[quote name='dood' post='861955' date='Jun 9 2010, 11:46 AM']I think this hits the nail on the head. As a sweeping statement *most* musicians are not techno geeks and thus expect to twiddle a few knobs and sound like SRV. However, modelling just doesn't work like that - infact even big valvey amp stacks don't either.

The POD *can* sound amazing in the right hands - but a lack of experience - or indeed a lack of reading the manual in the first place will only grace you with a turd to polish.

I would quite happily turn up to a studio session with just a POD (X3) - because I am confident that I can get the tones I want from it and you'd be hard pushed to tell the difference between live or model.

- oh and finally, none of the sounds I use are stock ones... Eeeeesh!!! - I'd rather get the POD with no default sounds on! lol[/quote]

The only people I know that slate DM are the ones that never get passed the presets
On the downside some guitarists I know say they are great but just don’t react to their playing or feel like a real amp but it is not far off.

[Dood]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='862020' date='Jun 9 2010, 12:56 PM']On the downside some guitarists I know say they are great but just don’t react to their playing or feel like a real amp but it is not far off.[/quote]

That I agree with - especially in older DSP chips where the latency was, in some cases as much as 10ms end to end.

It's a wierd feeling - and really hard to explain, but 'doesn't react' or 'feel' seems to be the best description. I think it is getting better though with faster more powerful processors. The AxeFX by Fractal and also Eleven by err.. Digidesign? are both at the top of the DSP modelling ladder and are getting great responses from the industry. I haven't played either yet though.

[51m0n]

Can of worms opened I think.

Its as was said before, since everything colours the sound (cables, room dimensions, playback system, air temperature, humidity) then unless you are in very specific environments, with very specific parameters I think that with the very best implementations its very hard to be able to tell the difference (I'm thinking along the lines of a mastering suite set up), and have much of a hope of telling which was which.

Thats not to say they sound the same, but being able to identify them is very very hard (I dont think I can now, with the good implementations, I could with earlier poorer quality kit though).

I think top quality digital modelling can deliver fantastic quality sounds. Are they the same as what they are purported to emulate? Well in the case of vintage kit (old SVTs etc) how the hell can you hope to tell, the variance in performance of all vintage gear is massive, no two of the real things sound alike, as often as not the difference between a 'good' and 'bad' vintage amp are far larger than the difference between the 'good' amp and a digital model of it though.

Can you program the device to sound how you want to?

Is your idea of a good sound consistent with the audience?

Do you prefer to work in the digital domain rather than the analogue domain?

These questions are more valid now I think...

[Dubs]

[quote name='silddx' post='862002' date='Jun 9 2010, 12:36 PM']I've done an EP and an album in a very good studio and only took my POD. At first the producer was very concerned and told me he wanted me to go through his lovely old compressors and DI with just the bass. He reckoned the POD's compressor would be no match for his old rack compressors. In the end we did three simultaneous recordings to three separate tracks, one his way, one POD dry output and one wet. he went with the POD on most of the songs. Next session I did there he admitted the POD was great.[/quote]

Different strokes for differet folks. I'd never turn up to a session with only a Pod for guitar.

[bigjohn]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='862020' date='Jun 9 2010, 12:56 PM']The only people I know that slate DM are the ones that never get passed the presets
On the downside some guitarists I know say they are great but just don’t react to their playing or feel like a real amp but it is not far off.[/quote]


I slate DM without ever having used it

I don't see the point of using a model of something no matter how accurate (which is where the conjecture surely lies) when the real thing is readily available.

Real valve preamps aren't heavy.

If I wanted to create a sound I couldn't get with a valve or solid state pre I'd be all for DM though. I just dont!

It's the poweramp bit where I get interested.

That said, I have been tempted by those little TC Electronics things recently.

[velvetkevorkian]

Because you can have multiple models/sounds without having to have multiple rigs, e.g. I use the same preamp for bass, double bass and electric and acoustic guitar, and can tailor my sound to each one. If all you want is one sound, and you can achieve that with gear you like, then yes, modelling probably isn't for you.

For me, I'd rather spend 2k on an Axe-FX than on a vintage SVT, but as ever, YMMV.

[xilddx]

I simply don't want to cart a bunch of rigs and a big pedalboard about. I can get all the sounds I need from a single floor board and let the PA and monitors do the rest.

I sometimes think people forget why electric guitars and basses, amps and speakers exist and how they developed from a problem that needed solving. The reaction from some quarters would have been "It don't sound nothin' like a string bass!" and from others "Cripes, I can get all these different sounds!".

I think it's horses for courses in most cases, it's just the prejudice I can't stand.

[xilddx]

[quote name='velvetkevorkian' post='862038' date='Jun 9 2010, 01:17 PM']Because you can have multiple models/sounds without having to have multiple rigs, e.g. I use the same preamp for bass, double bass and electric and acoustic guitar, and can tailor my sound to each one. [b]If all you want is one sound, and you can achieve that with gear you like, then yes, modelling probably isn't for you. [/b]For me, I'd rather spend 2k on an Axe-FX than on a vintage SVT, but as ever, YMMV.[/quote]
Sorry, I meant to say the same thing.

For me, it's the sheer portability and variety of application. I like the pretty lights too

[xilddx]

[quote name='Dubs' post='862033' date='Jun 9 2010, 01:08 PM']Different strokes for differet folks. I'd never turn up to a session with only a Pod for guitar.[/quote]
That's totally cool man, but why?

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='dood' post='862009' date='Jun 9 2010, 12:41 PM']+1 Digital clipping could occurr if the unit is set up is configured incorrectly - as you say, if the signal gain was too high. This is not a fault of the unit itself.[/quote]

Thing is, with a actual valve amp, digital clipping can't occur whatever you do. And often, you'll have trouble going far off a 'good' sound, due to the limited options presented by a valve amp's preamp.

Additionally I like the fact that if my valve amp stops working, I can open it up, phone up Umph with my meter in hand and have a fair chance at being able to fix it. The nightmare of surface mount components in digital stuff doesn't present such options.

The really good digital stuff is really expensive, and the cheap stuff gives it all a bad rep.

If you control your dynamics by moving where your instrument is in the sound field, then you need a familiar cab.

Analogue modeling with digital control is where its at if you want a load of sounds. Sansamp stuff is just so good.

Lugging a real rig isn't as bad as lugging a modeller and a PA. I don't expect much more chance of a PA than I do of a backline being provided.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='silddx' post='862007' date='Jun 9 2010, 12:39 PM']TBH though, I'm not concerned about people like you because you are one in a million who can hear something like that.

Can you really hear extremely harsh harmonic content digital clipping, especially around 1k? I'm amazed if you can.[/quote]

Damn, if you can't hear digital clipping, there is something pretty bad going on.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='862064' date='Jun 9 2010, 01:44 PM']Lugging a real rig isn't as bad as lugging a modeller and a PA. I don't expect much more chance of a PA than I do of a backline being provided.[/quote]
Fair comment, but if you're playing places with no PA what does your singer do?

[bigjohn]

[quote name='velvetkevorkian' post='862038' date='Jun 9 2010, 01:17 PM']Because you can have multiple models/sounds without having to have multiple rigs, e.g. I use the same preamp for bass, double bass and electric and acoustic guitar, and can tailor my sound to each one. If all you want is one sound, and you can achieve that with gear you like, then yes, modelling probably isn't for you.

For me, I'd rather spend 2k on an Axe-FX than on a vintage SVT, but as ever, YMMV.[/quote]


I can see why it would be useful if that's what I did, but yeah, as you say, it's probably not for me.

I've got 3 basses, I only gig with one of them. I've got an SVT-IIP preamp which weighs nowt. I've got a meaty 1k SS poweramp and a Schroeder 1212L. Digital modelling doesn't really fit into my signal chain or my train of thought really. If I didn't have to carry it I'd have a valve poweramp too.

If I gigged using different basses or played different instruments, or played a greater variety of styles live I'd think differently.

I do think it's a trade off though. There's no way digital stuff would be as popular if it was heavy as the analogue. Although I do understand that DM provides things that analogue simply can't practically do - especially in a live situation.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='silddx' post='862071' date='Jun 9 2010, 01:47 PM']Fair comment, but if you're playing places with no PA what does your singer do?[/quote]

Not exist, same as they do usually. A singer would be fine with tops only PA that I'd expect to be in dives I'm lined up to play. I've only ever played one venue where the subs could keep up with my cabs. It is probably a genre thing.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='862067' date='Jun 9 2010, 01:44 PM']Damn, if you can't hear digital clipping, there is something pretty bad going on.[/quote]
I set my patches up so they don't clip. You are making out that clipping is a [b]feature [/b]of digital modelling. It isn't unless I am gravely mistaken. If the digital signal is clipping, of course I can hear it, but why would I get it to clip? There is no reason to, is there.

[bigjohn]

[quote name='silddx' post='862071' date='Jun 9 2010, 01:47 PM']Fair comment, but if you're playing places with no PA what does your singer do?[/quote]


Our singer brings a PA, but I wouldn't want to put my bass through it

[TankJon]

Ive used and owned both but I do prefer using real valves over digital modelling but I only ever play bass clean or when playing guitar I use massive amounts of doomed out fuzz. In this case, only using two sounds ever, it works well for me but if I was playing in many different bands then having access to a large variety of sounds in one place is very appealing.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='862074' date='Jun 9 2010, 01:49 PM']Not exist, same as they do usually. A singer would be fine with tops only PA that I'd expect to be in dives I'm lined up to play. I've only ever played one venue where the subs could keep up with my cabs. It is probably a genre thing.[/quote]
You probably play small venues then. Fair enough.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='umph' post='861982' date='Jun 9 2010, 12:18 PM']digital clipping is extremely harsh on the ears[/quote]


[quote name='silddx' post='862007' date='Jun 9 2010, 12:39 PM']Can you really hear extremely harsh harmonic content digital clipping, especially around 1k? I'm amazed if you can.[/quote]

[quote name='silddx' post='862075' date='Jun 9 2010, 01:51 PM']I set my patches up so they don't clip. You are making out that clipping is a [b]feature [/b]of digital modelling. It isn't unless I am gravely mistaken. If the digital signal is clipping, of course I can hear it, but why would I get it to clip? There is no reason to, is there.[/quote]

If it isn't there, of course you can't here it. But given the context of the quoted stuff you are replying to, the words 'digital clipping' figure fairly prominently. I have never heard digital clipping from a valve amplifier.

[51m0n]

Out of interest Silddx, what happens if you turn up at a venue and the PA is pants, or the soundengineer cant deal with what yuo are doing?

Part of the reason I so dearly love carting a great big heavy rig about is that I'm not entirely at the mercy of the PA with it, in most cases I do have the option of leaning over and turn up the Whumpulator Knob, ensuring satisfactory deafness to all around me....

[cheddatom]

I think it's that Umph was implying that "digital clipping" reffered to what digital modellers do as opposed to "analogue clipping" which is just not the case. Digital Modellers model analogue clipping. They only create digital clipping when an idiot overdrives them.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='862082' date='Jun 9 2010, 01:57 PM']If it isn't there, of course you can't here it. But given the context of the quoted stuff you are replying to, the words 'digital clipping' figure fairly prominently. I have never heard digital clipping from a valve amplifier.[/quote]
Are you taking the piss, old son?

Have you heard valve clipping from a valve amp?

[xilddx]

[quote name='51m0n' post='862084' date='Jun 9 2010, 02:00 PM']Out of interest Silddx, what happens if you turn up at a venue and the PA is pants, or the soundengineer cant deal with what yuo are doing?

Part of the reason I so dearly love carting a great big heavy rig about is that I'm not entirely at the mercy of the PA with it, in most cases I do have the option of leaning over and turn up the Whumpulator Knob, ensuring satisfactory deafness to all around me....[/quote]
It happens once in a while that the PA is sh*t, I talk to the sound guys and they are usually totally cool with it. I live with it if I get no monitor or if the PA is pants. It's the venue that's crap, not the band, we don't play there again.

[51m0n]

[quote name='silddx' post='862096' date='Jun 9 2010, 02:05 PM']It happens once in a while that the PA is sh*t, I talk to the sound guys and they are usually totally cool with it. I live with it if I get no monitor or if the PA is pants. It's the venue that's crap, not the band, we don't play there again.[/quote]

Fair enough, every now and then I play in a room thats acoustically pants and no one can do anything about it, same deal really

I'd still think that you are more likely to have monitoring issues, or do you have your own In Ear monitoring solution?