Digital Modelling vs The Real Thing

[ped]

[quote name='Marvin' post='862849' date='Jun 10 2010, 05:54 AM'] If that's a pass, I'll warn you now I'm very high maintenance.[/quote]

That's OK, I drive a Citroen

[TankJon]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='862823' date='Jun 10 2010, 12:58 AM']For solid state amps, they do a fair job. Something trying to be something, will never be the same as that actual thing being it's self, because it just won't be, but that's not to say that it won't do an equally good job, just slightly different.

Emulators are never as good as valve amps though. I played a gig recently where the guitarist from another band had his own monitors and laptop (not just a POD into the PA) and used a setting that was supposed to sound like a Mesa (our guitarist uses...a Mesa). To be fair, the sound wasn't awful, it was maybe 90% of the sound of the real Mesa, but as soon as it went into the mix it died a very sudden, obvious death. If you want a valve sound, you need to use valves.

Never really been into valve bass amps though, my experience is with guitar amps.

I've used them to an ok effect in the studio, but there's so much control there. The biggest problem I've seen with them in live use (and why I'd never use one) is that they vary so much in mixes, it's not like an amp that's roughly the same every gig and I'm not prepared to sit down and re-EQ/write every patch I use for every gig.[/quote]

Having owned a Triple Rec and a Rectoverb I can say 100% that the Line6 approximation sounds nothing like the real thing. It totally lacks the Mesa's aggression and punch.

[xilddx]

[quote name='TankJon' post='862880' date='Jun 10 2010, 08:28 AM']Having owned a Triple Rec and a Rectoverb I can say 100% that the Line6 approximation sounds nothing like the real thing. It totally lacks the Mesa's aggression and punch.[/quote]
In what situation?

As has been said, it's down to the quality and attention to detail of the patch. But maybe you are talking about the Line 6 amp, I keep thinking about the POD.

[algmusic]

[quote name='deathpanda' post='862703' date='Jun 9 2010, 10:27 PM']for me, a passive jazz bass and an ampeg is all I ever need. change the mids when needed and I'm ready to go. I might be bit of a purist deep down, and I would be willing to give amp modeling a go, but i know it would never feel right. I've never heard a good line 6 guitar amp, and I've played on loads. the tones sound too glossy and plastic.[/quote]


That's great, just when you get older and you're doing alot of gigs.. you might thick technology can help you're back so you can walk when you're 50.. I'love the old stuff, must the new stuff is light and when used correctly, no one knows

[algmusic]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='862506' date='Jun 9 2010, 07:10 PM']And the answers are:

1. Who cares it's an appropriate sound for the track.

2. Who cares it's an appropriate sound for the track.

3. Who cares it's an appropriate sound for the track.

Can you spot a theme yet?[/quote]


I agree.. It really doesn't matter.. I traded my pod for a sansamp, just for preference... it all just doesn't matter, just get the right sound for the song

[algmusic]

[quote name='TankJon' post='862880' date='Jun 10 2010, 08:28 AM']Having owned a Triple Rec and a Rectoverb I can say 100% that the Line6 approximation sounds nothing like the real thing. It totally lacks the Mesa's aggression and punch.[/quote]

If still seen it both ways.. the quality of your sound has 3 factors:

the quality of:
the Player
how well the equipment is used (eq-ing etc)
The sound guy and his rig

I've had a great rig on stage and sh*T and the audience had ash*t sound. the sound guy was awful...

I think the key is know your gear.. The sound I give to the PA is usually my sansamp, which technically means, I could play without an amp, if the monitoring is good.. remember, unless it's small rig the audience hear your DI sound not your actual amp unless it's big big gig and still, i've had the guys still use the DI

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='algmusic' post='863093' date='Jun 10 2010, 11:27 AM']the quality of:
the Player
how well the equipment is used (eq-ing etc)
The sound guy and his rig[/quote]

Surely the quality of your gear is a big factor too...I can't imagine someone playing an Encore through a 10w practice amp is going to sound as good as someone with a US Fender through a MB stack assuming that both are competant players.

[cheddatom]

In a live situation I don't think anything is going to substitute a big bass amp behind you rumbling your sack (unless you know for sure the venue has amazing on stage monitoring). That could be driven by a modelling pre-amp though. I think where the modelling really shows it's quality is when recorded. I'd be interested to try Kiwi's test but I don't have speakers at work.

[xilddx]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='863147' date='Jun 10 2010, 12:12 PM']In a live situation I don't think anything is going to substitute a big bass amp behind you rumbling your sack (unless you know for sure the venue has amazing on stage monitoring). That could be driven by a modelling pre-amp though. I think where the modelling really shows it's quality is when recorded. I'd be interested to try Kiwi's test but I don't have speakers at work.[/quote]
I did a gig recently and they had huge [url="http://www.noisecontrolaudio.com/products_sw15.htm"]http://www.noisecontrolaudio.com/products_sw15.htm[/url] wedges that were stomach churningly powerful. It sounded amazing on stage.

Edited June 10, 2010 by silddx

[BigRedX]

In the studio you need to tailor the bass sound to fit in with the other instrumentation on each track, so unless you use exactly the same instruments with exactly the same sounds on every song then a single bass sound is unlikely to appropriate.

Live, if I'm using my rig, it's two cabs and a rack. The cabs plug into the amp in the rack and the bass plugs into the pod. I select the patch for the song we are doing and I'm ready to go. That takes about 5 minutes from humping the gear to the stage area.

If I'm going to be using someone else's rig, I just bring the Pod. Bass>Pod>amp. Defeat the amp tone controls or set as close to flat as possible and I'm probably 90% to the sound I would have with my own rig.

I'll take consistency, programability and ease of use over 100% accurate emulation of an amp/speaker system every day.

EDIT: I've also done gigs where even my big rig was dwarfed by the foldback for both size and volume and I could have run bass>Pod>PA quite happily without it sounding any different either on stage or FoH.

Edited June 10, 2010 by BigRedX

[cheddatom]

[quote name='silddx' post='863152' date='Jun 10 2010, 12:18 PM']I did a gig recently and they had huge [url="http://www.noisecontrolaudio.com/products_sw15.htm"]http://www.noisecontrolaudio.com/products_sw15.htm[/url] wedges that were stomach churningly powerful. It sounded amazing on stage.[/quote]

I would absolutely LOVE that!!

I used to gig with a 1 x 15" combo, 1 x 18" extension, 2 x 12" guitar combo, and still asked for DI through the wedge!

[algmusic]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='863107' date='Jun 10 2010, 11:41 AM']Surely the quality of your gear is a big factor too...I can't imagine someone playing an Encore through a 10w practice amp is going to sound as good as someone with a US Fender through a MB stack assuming that both are competant players.[/quote]


I agree.. that's in the equipment part.. but it needs to be used correcttly.. I've seen great players use crap gear and it sounds great and bad player use great gear and sound sh*t

[algmusic]

[quote name='silddx' post='863152' date='Jun 10 2010, 12:18 PM']I did a gig recently and they had huge [url="http://www.noisecontrolaudio.com/products_sw15.htm"]http://www.noisecontrolaudio.com/products_sw15.htm[/url] wedges that were stomach churningly powerful. It sounded amazing on stage.[/quote]


I rest my case :-)

[TankJon]

[quote name='silddx' post='863018' date='Jun 10 2010, 10:25 AM']In what situation?

As has been said, it's down to the quality and attention to detail of the patch. But maybe you are talking about the Line 6 amp, I keep thinking about the POD.[/quote]

It was in a live situation. It was the factory default Treadplate setting on a rackmount POD into a ss power amp and 4x12. It was a good sound but it certainly wasn't a Mesa sound. A valve poweramp would have helped a lot though to be honest.

Im not anti modelling amps but I did try the Line6 HD100 valve head and just didn't like 90% of the default sounds. I say 90% because the crunch tones were pretty awesome but I wasn't fond of the high gain or clean sounds.

Edited June 10, 2010 by TankJon

[xilddx]

[quote name='TankJon' post='863244' date='Jun 10 2010, 01:46 PM']It was in a live situation. It was the factory default Treadplate setting on a rackmount POD into a ss power amp and 4x12. It was a good sound but it certainly wasn't a Mesa sound. A valve poweramp would have helped a lot though to be honest.

Im not anti modelling amps but I did try the Line6 HD100 valve head and just didn't like 90% of the default sounds. I say 90% because the crunch tones were pretty awesome but I wasn't fond of the high gain or clean sounds.[/quote]
Thanks mate. As has been said a number of times, the factory default patches are demo-only showcase exaggerations, one would be 90% mad to ever use the majority of them for any serious application. One or two are ok, but forget most of the hi gain patches, they are appalling.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='TankJon' post='863244' date='Jun 10 2010, 01:46 PM']It was in a live situation. It was the factory default Treadplate setting on a rackmount POD into a ss power amp and 4x12. It was a good sound but it certainly wasn't a Mesa sound. A valve poweramp would have helped a lot though to be honest.

Im not anti modelling amps but I did try the Line6 HD100 valve head and just didn't like 90% of the default sounds. I say 90% because the crunch tones were pretty awesome but I wasn't fond of the high gain or clean sounds.[/quote]

But did your sound absolutely have to be 100% that Mesa sound? Surely a good bass sound is good enough for most situations?

Also do you ever have to use anyone else's amp in a live situation for space saving or facilitate change-over times. What do you do then?

I don't get this "the presets didn't sound right" thing. The presets will only sound right to the person who programmed them. Everyone has a slightly different idea of what a good sound is. I they didn't the only control you'd need on an amp would be the volume one.

All the good modelling devices have the controls right there on the front panel, nicely labelled for you to adjust. Surely you don't try out a traditional amp with the controls only in the positions you found them?

[xilddx]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='863272' date='Jun 10 2010, 02:03 PM']But did your sound absolutely have to be 100% that Mesa sound? Surely a good bass sound is good enough for most situations?

Also do you ever have to use anyone else's amp in a live situation for space saving or facilitate change-over times. What do you do then?

I don't get this "the presets didn't sound right" thing. The presets will only sound right to the person who programmed them. Everyone has a slightly different idea of what a good sound is. I they didn't the only control you'd need on an amp would be the volume one.

All the good modelling devices have the controls right there on the front panel, nicely labelled for you to adjust. Surely you don't try out a traditional amp with the controls only in the positions you found them?[/quote]
Beautifully stated BRX

[Mog]

I was one of those guys who wouldn't use digi but not anymore. (Cheers Silddx ). There is a huge difference between good digi gear like the Pod and say something from boss. Not a fan of the Line 6 amps though. That Tool sound they try to replicate is a bloody joke.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Mog' post='863305' date='Jun 10 2010, 02:25 PM']I was one of those guys who wouldn't use digi but not anymore. (Cheers Silddx ).[/quote]
Hah hah! Glad you made it, pilgrim

[tauzero]

[quote name='Marvin' post='862431' date='Jun 9 2010, 06:03 PM']1. Trace

2. POD

3. V Bass

I'm making a wild guess BTW. If I'm right do I get a Basschat t-shirt?[/quote]

My wild guess is 1. POD, 2. V Bass, 3. Trace.

I already have a Basschat T-shirt.

[Musicman20]

I sit in the middle.

On one hand I have my Orange. All tube, old school, heavy to move. but stunning tone and great to just sit and look at. I appreciate that this tone is something that can be replicated, but not completely. Its the 'feel' of tubes in the heft of the notes.

On the other hand, my all digital TC RH450. The Tubetone on this amp can get fairly close, and used correctly adds a good grit or a little hair. Yes, its got heft and TC have really gone to town on the whole tube simulation aspect. It works very well.

In the middle I have the Sansamp BDDI and Aguilar Tonehammer.

In my opinion, they all work in their own way. I think the idea of a DI or Pod for city gigging is a very good idea. I don't live in London but I would never carry an amp around on the tube, unless it was concealed well and was lightweight. Best just to take a DI that you like and make sure they have a good PA.

Im probably way off track, but I can see where you are coming from Nigel. A good bass works wonders in these scenarios.

[Mr. Foxen]

If I go to a gig and the electrics don't fuse each of the first three strums (forcing him to cut a kilowatt of amps from the backline), I feel cheated.

[umph]

[quote name='silddx' post='863018' date='Jun 10 2010, 10:25 AM']In what situation?

As has been said, it's down to the quality and attention to detail of the patch. But maybe you are talking about the Line 6 amp, I keep thinking about the POD.[/quote]
i've had a pod in the past, couldn't get any good sounds out of it, I'd rather just turn something on and it sound great rather than spend hours trying to squeeze a usable tone out of something

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='umph' post='865835' date='Jun 13 2010, 12:01 PM']I'd rather just turn something on and it sound great rather than spend hours reading valve data sheets and soldering.[/quote]

[xilddx]

Does any of this sound "digital"? What is your opinion of the tones? Does it sound pleasing or irritating to the ears?

Version 2 mixed better (I reckon and with new bass.

Edited June 16, 2010 by silddx