lxxwj Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) Hey, I just put a cable in an amp and turn the mids up. [i]shrugs[/i] But being serious, I think digital modeling sounds a lot worse on guitar. Especially distortions/overdrives, for those you really need a good amp or pedal. Digital phasers/flangers/choruses sound fine to my ear, same with delays (if you want that hi-fi sound) but everything else tends to suck, with the exception of pitch bend, because you can't get analog pitch bend. Really, if you want a decent effects module for bass, just get a Pod or a Zoom or a Line 6, and your tone isn't really super treble-y anyway, so it won't mess that up with crap digital effects. But if you're a guitar player and you want the perfect distortion, just buy a friggin' tube amp already. Edited April 13, 2012 by lxxwj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockfordStone Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 a good digital modeller can sound as good as the original, a cheap one can sound just awful i think it also depends especially live what speaker arrangement it is being used through Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) [quote name='charic' timestamp='1334316122' post='1614322'] As before, sound = sound. Bar various mic'ing techniques (which can obviously be discounted ) and double tracking what you can do in the studio you can do live [/quote] Sorry but you're wrong! For example, in a studio you could (if you wish) put a guitar amp in a separate room and record three or more strategicly spaced mics whereas live you will just close mic the edge of the speaker. Live you cannot isolate instruments like you can in a studio, you will have a guitar cab next to a noisy drum kit and the sound is going out of a big PA rather than straight to disk. Edited April 13, 2012 by peteb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334315783' post='1614312'] Recording in a studio and live are two completely different things [/quote] In terms of the sound coming out of the guitar rig, they're the exact same thing?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted April 13, 2012 Author Share Posted April 13, 2012 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334315783' post='1614312'] Recording in a studio and live are two completely different things [/quote] We recorded live, in the studio mate In the same room, stage set up, no separation. No overdubs. no fixes (except one two bar section for me where I played the most rancid, foetid note I have ever set finger on). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334316616' post='1614338'] Sorry but you're wrong! For example, in a studio you could (if you wish) put a guitar amp in a separate room and record three or more strategicly spaced mics whereas live you will just close mic the edge of the speaker. Live you cannot isolate instruments like you can in a studio, you will have a guitar cab next to a noisy drum kit and the sound is going out of a big PA rather than straight to disk. [/quote] That sounds suspiciously like a mic'ing technique to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted April 13, 2012 Author Share Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) [quote name='lxxwj' timestamp='1334316219' post='1614326'] Hey, I just put a cable in an amp and turn the mids up. [i]shrugs[/i] But being serious, I think digital modeling sounds a lot worse on guitar. Especially distortions/overdrives, for those you really need a good amp or pedal. Digital phasers/flangers/choruses sound fine to my ear, same with delays (if you want that hi-fi sound) but everything else tends to suck, with the exception of pitch bend, because you can't get analog pitch bend. Really, if you want a decent effects module for bass, just get a Pod or a Zoom or a Line 6, and your tone isn't really super treble-y anyway, so it won't mess that up with crap digital effects. But if you're a guitar player and you want the perfect distortion, just buy a friggin' tube amp already. [/quote] Ahh, my POD overdrives and distortions (for guitar) are lovely, and respond to finger touch, pick attack and volume knob roll off just like my Fender Twin and my boutique effects and THD Powersoak (that I sold with not a single regret). Edited April 13, 2012 by silddx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1334317085' post='1614350'] We recorded live, in the studio mate In the same room, stage set up, no separation. No overdubs. no fixes (except one two bar section for me where I played the most rancid, foetid note I have ever set finger on). [/quote] But I assume that you were not playing in a large room thru a PA with an audience present?? The music you produced went straight to disk where it could be manipulated by the engineer. I recognise the playing the rancid, foetid note bit - I used to hate recording studios! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted April 13, 2012 Author Share Posted April 13, 2012 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334317393' post='1614363'] [b]But I assume that you were not playing in a large room thru a PA with an audience present?? The music you produced went straight to disk where it could be manipulated by the engineer.[/b] I recognise the playing the rancid, foetid note bit - I used to hate recording studios! [/quote] True enough, however, he didn't eq any more than a FoH engineer would, he just got a balance. None of us used headphones either. The PA was the studio monitors in the control room, we played at stage volume. It wasn't a big room as you can see in the pic, it was part of a larger room though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 so you can mic or DI a modelling rig and get a great sound in the studio, but as soon as you mic it or DI it at a gig it's no longer a great sound. That makes absolutely no sense to me. If my sound wasn't working live there's no way i'd use it in the studio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted April 13, 2012 Author Share Posted April 13, 2012 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1334319582' post='1614412'] so you can mic or DI a modelling rig and get a great sound in the studio, but as soon as you mic it or DI it at a gig it's no longer a great sound. That makes absolutely no sense to me. If my sound wasn't working live there's no way i'd use it in the studio. [/quote] I 'think' what peteb means is that big rooms and PAs amplify all the sh*t he thinks is present in a modelled sound, and the aural result is weak compared to a 'real' rig. I don't agree of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 As far as revealing neuances in a "tone" I think we can all agree studio conditions are far better than live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted April 13, 2012 Author Share Posted April 13, 2012 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1334320156' post='1614431'] As far as revealing neuances in a "tone" I think we can all agree studio conditions are far better than live. [/quote] Quite! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 therefore if your guitar rig works in the studio you can guarantee it works live. Logic prevails! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1334325983' post='1614613'] therefore if your guitar rig works in the studio you can guarantee it works live. Logic prevails! [/quote] I prefer ProTools Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomBassmonkey Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 I'm joining this party a bit late, but I've done various sessions (live and studio) with modelling and various amps (guitar and bass) and I don't like modelling. IMO it's like buying a corsa then putting a ferrari body on it and saying it's just as good as the real thing. All of the manipulation that happens inside modelling units is manipulation, it's not "natural" sounds. The biggest problem for me is that live, high gain sounds never fit in the mix properly, they seem to behave like scooped tones where they can sound great on their own but when they go into a mix they disappear. The same thing happens in the studio but the engineer obviously has a lot more control over the sound, there's layers etc. Given the choice between amp or modelling, it's a no brainer for me. Modelling for clean tones is better than modelling for distortions, generally clean modelling is pretty good nowadays, it's still not as good as a decent amp though IMO. If you want a variety of sounds and/or can't take an amp to gigs (e.g. you don't have a car and rely on public transport) then modelling is a good solution. If you're in a studio and people always turn up with crap amps then having modelling software rather than spending thousands on amps then having to store them, modelling is a good solution. That's all it is to me currently though, a solution, I just don't think they match up to a real amp if you have that option available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomBassmonkey Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1334320156' post='1614431'] As far as revealing neuances in a "tone" I think we can all agree studio conditions are far better than live. [/quote] Conversely, a decent engineer can do a far better job of masking any negatives in the studio than a live engineer can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 I don't understand. A modelling amp/re-amp is just like any other amp/pre-amp. You turn the knobs until it sounds good in the band mix. What exactly is the problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) [quote name='ThomBassmonkey' timestamp='1334326099' post='1614616'] I'm joining this party a bit late, but I've done various sessions (live and studio) with modelling and various amps (guitar and bass) and I don't like modelling. IMO it's like buying a corsa then putting a ferrari body on it and saying it's just as good as the real thing. All of the manipulation that happens inside modelling units is manipulation, it's not "natural" sounds. The biggest problem for me is that live, high gain sounds never fit in the mix properly, they seem to behave like scooped tones where they can sound great on their own but when they go into a mix they disappear. The same thing happens in the studio but the engineer obviously has a lot more control over the sound, there's layers etc. Given the choice between amp or modelling, it's a no brainer for me. Modelling for clean tones is better than modelling for distortions, generally clean modelling is pretty good nowadays, it's still not as good as a decent amp though IMO. If you want a variety of sounds and/or can't take an amp to gigs (e.g. you don't have a car and rely on public transport) then modelling is a good solution. If you're in a studio and people always turn up with crap amps then having modelling software rather than spending thousands on amps then having to store them, modelling is a good solution. That's all it is to me currently though, a solution, I just don't think they match up to a real amp if you have that option available. [/quote] Exactly, you have just articulated what I have been trying to say - great post...! Edited April 13, 2012 by peteb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Reading this, I am reminded of why they call music an art form.....it's not the tools that matter but what your creativity allows you to achieve with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Just skimmed over the new posts. What just occurred to me is that the most expensive latest digital modelling is being compared to cheaply made old kit. Going 'yeah, my Fender twin..' cs. 'my digital sim thereof' is a bit like bigging up your awesome simulator of driving around a Ford transit, because you don't have to put fuel in and stink up the place with fumes and find a parking space. I'll take a space flight sim cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted April 13, 2012 Author Share Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) [quote name='ThomBassmonkey' timestamp='1334326099' post='1614616'] I'm joining this party a bit late, but I've done various sessions (live and studio) with modelling and various amps (guitar and bass) and I don't like modelling. IMO it's like buying a corsa then putting a ferrari body on it and saying it's just as good as the real thing.[b] All of the manipulation that happens inside modelling units is manipulation, it's not "natural" sounds[/b]. The biggest problem for me is that live, high gain sounds never fit in the mix properly, they seem to behave like scooped tones where they can sound great on their own but when they go into a mix they disappear. The same thing happens in the studio but the engineer obviously has a lot more control over the sound, there's layers etc. Given the choice between amp or modelling, it's a no brainer for me. Modelling for clean tones is better than modelling for distortions, generally clean modelling is pretty good nowadays, it's still not as good as a decent amp though IMO. If you want a variety of sounds and/or can't take an amp to gigs (e.g. you don't have a car and rely on public transport) then modelling is a good solution. If you're in a studio and people always turn up with crap amps then having modelling software rather than spending thousands on amps then having to store them, modelling is a good solution. That's all it is to me currently though, a solution, I just don't think they match up to a real amp if you have that option available. [/quote] And a guitar with a transducer and circuitry, going via a cable into a bunch of effect pedals, more cable to a pre-amplifier full of circuitry and valves connected to a power-amplifier full of circuitry and valves connected to a wooden cabinet with some loudspeakers, with a microphone in front of them relaying the sound from those speakers (and your feet tapping, trousers flapping, and all the other racket on a stage) via another long cable into a channel strip full of circuitry and out through another amp via a bunch of outboard, into more even bigger loudspeakers, IS NATURAL? Edited April 13, 2012 by silddx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Digital modelling [b]can[/b] sound [b]exactly[/b] like [b]any[/b] analog equipment. Unfortunately it's bloody complicated to do, still some people are getting very VERY close... AxeFX, Eleven, TC Electronic, Line6 are making a [b]LOT[/b] of money getting very close these days. However even when it is [b]EXACTLY [/b]the same (which is entirely possible) some people will still say they can hear the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1334327230' post='1614653'] And a guitar with a transducer and circuitry, going via a cable into a bunch of effect pedals, more cable to a pre-amplifier full of circuitry and valves connected to a wooden cabinet with some loudspeakers, with a microphone in front of them relaying the sound from those speakers (and your feet tapping, trousers flapping, and all the other racket on a stage) via another long cable into a channel strip full of circuitry and out through another amp via a bunch of outboard, into more even bigger loudspeakers, IS NATURAL? [/quote] Actually LOL'd... cue funny look from my boss, straight face... straight face! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wil Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 A friend of mine recently bought a VOX modelling amp that gets great reviews, and I have to admit at home it sounded very good. Come band practice it couldn't compete with my valve amp even when I scaled the volume back to very low levels. No presence in a band situation whatsoever. Now, that's not necessarily a fault of the modelling preamp, but the fact is was paired with a solid state poweramp. Perhaps that is skewing this discussing somewhat - how can you objectively compare modelling at the preamp stage with any number of variables depending on the choice of power amp, and valve kit where the power amp is very much where the action is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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