ooomph.....how do i get it?!

[chrisd24]

I recently played at a jam night with some lads im in a band with and i played through an amp owned by the pub the jam was at, it looked like an old peice of sh*t but sounded....well...really oomphie!

I know im probably not making sense here but the stack i use had no where near the presence and clarity of this bashed up old 150 watt combo, so now im thinking of changing my cabs/amp or maybe both as this had really done my nut! any suggestions on how i can give my own amp and cabs a lift (peavey tour 450 head, 2 x yammy 2 x 10 cabs) or maybe suggestions for what new gear i might possibly buy next would be most appreciated.

[Colledge]

i had exactly the same experience a couple of years ago. had a 600w ashdown 210 115 rig, never really knocked me off my feet. then i played a gig in a small pub called the angel (love the place) where a small trace combo was provided. Felt like i had all of the power i would ever need and could cut through like a hot knife through butter. sorry, no help.. never solved it. i just put it down to trace elliot awesomeness.
just sold the ashdown rig and gona get a terror bass, see of that has an effect.

[Mr. Foxen]

Get a Sansamp BDDI, stick all the knobs at 12, including the blend, and be surprised how 'ommphy' it makes anything.

[Ian Savage]

If you're only using 10"s at the minute, see if you can borrow a 15" for a practice/gig and check the difference. It might not fill ALL the low-end (as College says, having had a 210/115 setup), but I feel like I'm missing a lot of 'wallop' without at least one 15" speaker behind me.

Oh, and compression can make a big subjective difference if you're not using it already.

[Count Bassie]

Efficiency of cabs is a biggie. A combo tends to be designed for itself, and can be a real efficient rig even if it's not that 'powerful'. Also it might be how you're using your eq... lots of dialed in lows-boost does your presence and 'oomph factor' no much good at all (but you didn't say anything about that, I realize... just sayin'). You want low-mids for that oomphie thing!

Maybe you need new cabs? The problem may not be the head at all- cabs are a huge factor, I'd say generally more than the amp head itself. Lots of modern cab/speaker offerings out there, and a few oldies are good as well.

First thing I'd do though is look at your eq...

[chrisd24]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='863929' date='Jun 11 2010, 01:09 AM']Get a Sansamp BDDI, stick all the knobs at 12, including the blend, and be surprised how 'ommphy' it makes anything.[/quote]

i had an active eq on my bass and its pretty potent, that said though I have heard good things about these.

[quote name='Ian Savage' post='863938' date='Jun 11 2010, 01:38 AM']If you're only using 10"s at the minute, see if you can borrow a 15" for a practice/gig and check the difference. It might not fill ALL the low-end (as College says, having had a 210/115 setup), but I feel like I'm missing a lot of 'wallop' without at least one 15" speaker behind me.

Oh, and compression can make a big subjective difference if you're not using it already.[/quote]

I know that a 15 would probably help, but this combo was just a 4 x 10!

[quote name='Count Bassie' post='863953' date='Jun 11 2010, 04:43 AM']Efficiency of cabs is a biggie. A combo tends to be designed for itself, and can be a real efficient rig even if it's not that 'powerful'. Also it might be how you're using your eq... lots of dialed in lows-boost does your presence and 'oomph factor' no much good at all (but you didn't say anything about that, I realize... just sayin'). You want low-mids for that oomphie thing!

Maybe you need new cabs? The problem may not be the head at all- cabs are a huge factor, I'd say generally more than the amp head itself. Lots of modern cab/speaker offerings out there, and a few oldies are good as well.

First thing I'd do though is look at your eq...[/quote]

Although the cabs i have are pretty good cabs i think you may be right as far as replacing them goes, they seemed more suited to there matched head (no brainer i guess) so i think it may be time to start consider replacements, any recommendations? i like having 2 2 x 10s from a convenience point of view i guess, and only use 1 cab at smaller venues with a di or a 57 pointed at them.

As for eq's probably time for some honesty from me......I have never really ever had a clue from a technical standpoint how to set up an eq i just play around with it until it sounds right!

[chris_b]

Try this for your EQ; lay off the bass, add a little top and boost the mids. The aim is to balance the boosted the mid range while not completely killing the bottom end.

Your 410 will give you more potential for midrange punch than 90% of the 15's out there so don't worry about your cabs. Does your amp have a gain and master volume? Try to add punch by running the master as high as you can and balance the overall volume on the gain control.

Better speakers would help. There are Eden, Aguilar, Epifani and Bergantino cabs in the BC For Sale section. Any of these would improve your sound 1000%.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='chrisd24' post='864051' date='Jun 11 2010, 09:34 AM']I know that a 15 would probably help, but this combo was just a 4 x 10![/quote]



"Just a 4x10" ... that's really quite a lot, y'know! You can shift a lot of air with four 10" speakers.

Until I saw this, I had read your original post as meaning the pub had something like a 1x15 combo.

If a pair of Yamaha 2x10's are sounding that weedy, but only when compared to a 4x10, then don't spend ANY money until you've followed some of the suggestions (above) about your EQ. Almost certainly your current rig is capable of giving you more than you're getting out of it at the moment.

Try explaining the problem to your band mates, and ask them if you can all devote one rehearsal to experimenting with your rig.

[chrisd24]

[quote name='chris_b' post='864068' date='Jun 11 2010, 09:48 AM']Try this for your EQ; lay off the bass, add a little top and boost the mids. The aim is to balance the boosted the mid range while not completely killing the bottom end.

Your 410 will give you more potential for midrange punch than 90% of the 15's out there so don't worry about your cabs. Does your amp have a gain and master volume? Try to add punch by running the master as high as you can and balance the overall volume on the gain control.

Better speakers would help. There are Eden, Aguilar, Epifani and Bergantino cabs in the BC For Sale section. Any of these would improve your sound 1000%.[/quote]

No gain and master volume, but a pre gain and a post gain (which im guessing is gain and volume just relabeled?!)

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='864069' date='Jun 11 2010, 09:49 AM']

"Just a 4x10" ... that's really quite a lot, y'know! You can shift a lot of air with four 10" speakers.

Until I saw this, I had read your original post as meaning the pub had something like a 1x15 combo.

If a pair of Yamaha 2x10's are sounding that weedy, but only when compared to a 4x10, then don't spend ANY money until you've followed some of the suggestions (above) about your EQ. Almost certainly your current rig is capable of giving you more than you're getting out of it at the moment.

Try explaining the problem to your band mates, and ask them if you can all devote one rehearsal to experimenting with your rig.[/quote]

Will do, time for a well overdue tinker by the sounds of things, thanks for your comments chaps

[51m0n]

The diameter of the driver is not that relevant to timbre or loudness.

Cab design, internal volume, porting etc are far more relevant. Also important is XMAX of the drivers, thermal rating etc. Diameter is about the one thing that isnt particularly relevant to something as gross as overall tonality/timbre/frequency range/volume/sensitivity of a cab.

A 410 will usually be larger (thus go deeper) than a 115. A 410 moves more air than a 115 if they all have about the same XMAX. Some modern drivers have significantly higher XMAX than older drivers though, they need more wattage to make use of that XMAX.

Quick and dirty supporting calculation (not giving a damn about cone depth):

[u]115[/u]
1 * (pi * (7.5^2)) = 176.714587
[u]410[/u]
4 * (pi * (5^2)) = 314.159265

2x210s is usually pretty equivalent to 1x410 assuming the total volume is also equivalent, same drivers in both blah blah.

The sensitivity of the finished cab is very important, unfortunately the manufacturers specs are generally utter tosh (they are ususally measured at 1KHz, and are often liberally coated with marketting fairy dust, or lies as I like to think of them). So you just cannot trust them...

My 410 is louder (significantly) than Plux's 210, 115 stack. By rights his stack should move more air, (larger cone area), but my cab is more sensitive, and I suspect the cones have a higher XMAX than the older cones in his stack. Timbrally they are actually not a million miles apart however, different for sure, but not chalk and cheese.

Another filthy rough calculation...
[u]210 + 115 stack[/u]
(2 * (pi * (5^2))) + (pi * (7.5^2)) = 333.794219

Edited June 11, 2010 by 51m0n

[chris_b]

[quote name='chrisd24' post='864087' date='Jun 11 2010, 10:02 AM']....No gain and master volume, but a pre gain and a post gain (which im guessing is gain and volume just relabeled?!)....[/quote]
I would think so.

[bassicinstinct]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='863929' date='Jun 11 2010, 01:09 AM']Get a Sansamp BDDI, stick all the knobs at 12, including the blend, and be surprised how 'ommphy' it makes anything.[/quote]

+1.

Exactomundo!!

[essexbasscat]

Peavey 400 series MkIV head. Chucks out oomph by the barrowload. Not expensive either.

T

[tombboy]

MB 106hr and lots of headroom. 10+ on an oomph-ometer!!!

[umph]

[quote name='chrisd24' post='863851' date='Jun 10 2010, 11:25 PM']I recently played at a jam night with some lads im in a band with and i played through an amp owned by the pub the jam was at, it looked like an old peice of sh*t but sounded....well...really oomphie!

I know im probably not making sense here but the stack i use had no where near the presence and clarity of this bashed up old 150 watt combo, so now im thinking of changing my cabs/amp or maybe both as this had really done my nut! any suggestions on how i can give my own amp and cabs a lift (peavey tour 450 head, 2 x yammy 2 x 10 cabs) or maybe suggestions for what new gear i might possibly buy next would be most appreciated.[/quote]

what was the combo?

[ThomBassmonkey]

What bass do you use?

[dan670844]

[quote name='chrisd24' post='863851' date='Jun 10 2010, 11:25 PM']I recently played at a jam night with some lads im in a band with and i played through an amp owned by the pub the jam was at, it looked like an old peice of sh*t but sounded....well...really oomphie!

I know im probably not making sense here but the stack i use had no where near the presence and clarity of this bashed up old 150 watt combo, so now im thinking of changing my cabs/amp or maybe both as this had really done my nut! any suggestions on how i can give my own amp and cabs a lift (peavey tour 450 head, 2 x yammy 2 x 10 cabs) or maybe suggestions for what new gear i might possibly buy next would be most appreciated.[/quote]


Alright

All the suggestions advice is pretty good stuff so far . But what no one has mentioned is where the little 150 watter was at the gig? If it was in a corner of a room, it will make a very big difference to the largeness of the sound. If the amp was on a false floor etc it will also make a big difference. Another point is how high was this combo? if it was off the deck on a solid surface it will also make a big difference. Bass is a funny if you can get your little amp to be in a corner of a room it will sound so much bigger and be much louder. It makes a such a big difference. Another point is the fact that with a big stack the bass power is developed much further out from the amp. It might sound weedy and thin and not very loud/ muddy/ terrible close up but ten foot out plus and you might be popping people's ribs.

D

[dan670844]

[quote name='dan670844' post='864335' date='Jun 11 2010, 02:04 PM']Alright

All the suggestions advice is pretty good stuff so far . But what no one has mentioned is where the little 150 watter was at the gig? If it was in a corner of a room, it will make a very big difference to the largeness of the sound. If the amp was on a false floor etc it will also make a big difference. Another point is how high was this combo? if it was off the deck on a solid surface it will also make a big difference. Bass is a funny if you can get your little amp to be in a corner of a room it will sound so much bigger and be much louder. It makes a such a big difference. Another point is the fact that with a big stack the bass power is developed much further out from the amp. It might sound weedy and thin and not very loud/ muddy/ terrible close up but ten foot out plus and you might be popping people's ribs.

D[/quote]

Sorry another point. 2x 2x10 cabs will probably not give you the depth and breadth you are after, you might find they might cancel each other out a bit due to some kind of phase blah bah (speak to Alex Claber about this. he can explain it better than me). It would be better to stick to a tried and trusted formula i.e. 2x10 and 1x15, 4x10, 1x15 etc 2x15.

[Count Bassie]

[quote name='dan670844' post='864335' date='Jun 11 2010, 09:04 AM']Alright

All the suggestions advice is pretty good stuff so far . But what no one has mentioned is where the little 150 watter was at the gig? If it was in a corner of a room, it will make a very big difference to the largeness of the sound. If the amp was on a false floor etc it will also make a big difference. Another point is how high was this combo? if it was off the deck on a solid surface it will also make a big difference. Bass is a funny if you can get your little amp to be in a corner of a room it will sound so much bigger and be much louder. It makes a such a big difference. Another point is the fact that with a big stack the bass power is developed much further out from the amp. It might sound weedy and thin and not very loud/ muddy/ terrible close up but ten foot out plus and you might be popping people's ribs.

D[/quote]

Pretty good point- location in relation to ears! I was hearing a band once at a bar in Miami (Churchill's Hedeaway, if any of you "blokes" have spent any time in Miami)- Charlie Picket and the MC3. The bass player (Marco Petit, gone now, sorry) was playing his old Precision through an SWR Bassic 350 / Goliath II cab. Loud and clear, it was the most beautiful wooly sound I'd ever heard. The stage was about 4' off the floor and from a sitting position it was coming right at my head and chest. And it was perfect for the band. Wow.

The way you percieve sound as a player and from out front are quite different.

And... what you dial into your rig on your own and what it sounds like in the band mix-very different. What can come off as 'ugly' solo'd might really be perfect in the band.

I'd consider that adding a lot of low-bass boost can bury your band in murk, and takes more power from your amp to produce. Also, the bass guitar isn't really a "fundamental bass" instrument by nature- it's really producing mids and harmonics, mostly. So rather than trying to produce lows, you want to discover what feels and sounds good in the band's mix. And now I'm going off, I'll stop...

But, don't spend any more money- spend some time. Here's a link with some basics that seems solid: [url="http://bassguitarrocks.com/bass-amp-eq-for-beginners"]http://bassguitarrocks.com/bass-amp-eq-for-beginners[/url]

Here's an interesting eq experience from an electric/upright doubler: [url="http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2008/Mar/Bass_EQ_Basics.aspx"]http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issu..._EQ_Basics.aspx[/url]

Edited June 11, 2010 by Count Bassie

[Commando Jack]

I've got the same head (played through a hartke transporter 4x10) and I find myself playing with a lot of low mids. I find the contour control is best left fully off for my cab - it can sound huge, but it makes it impossible to sit in the mix, and I lose all definition.

If you put a hump in the graphic eq in the middle-left, and leave the high and low controls in the centre (i.e not cutting or boosting), you might find what you're after. Unfortunately, for most of my gigs, I don't have an option to move the cab about, so I can't comment on that, but I agree that it can make all the difference too.

[dan670844]

[quote name='Count Bassie' post='864361' date='Jun 11 2010, 02:31 PM']Pretty good point- location in relation to ears! I was hearing a band once at a bar in Miami (Churchill's Hedeaway, if any of you "blokes" have spent any time in Miami)- Charlie Picket and the MC3. The bass player (Marco Petit, gone now, sorry) was playing his old Precision through an SWR Bassic 350 / Goliath II cab. Loud and clear, it was the most beautiful wooly sound I'd ever heard. The stage was about 4' off the floor and from a sitting position it was coming right at my head and chest. And it was perfect for the band. Wow.

The way you percieve sound as a player and from out front are quite different.

And... what you dial into your rig on your own and what it sounds like in the band mix-very different. What can come off as 'ugly' solo'd might really be perfect in the band.

I'd consider that adding a lot of low-bass boost can bury your band in murk, and takes more power from your amp to produce. Also, the bass guitar isn't really a "fundamental bass" instrument by nature- it's really producing mids and harmonics, mostly. So rather than trying to produce lows, you want to discover what feels and sounds good in the band's mix. And now I'm going off, I'll stop...

But, don't spend any more money- spend some time. Here's a link with some basics that seems solid: [url="http://bassguitarrocks.com/bass-amp-eq-for-beginners"]http://bassguitarrocks.com/bass-amp-eq-for-beginners[/url]

Here's an interesting eq experience from an electric/upright doubler: [url="http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2008/Mar/Bass_EQ_Basics.aspx"]http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issu..._EQ_Basics.aspx[/url][/quote]


+1 to this most players try and thicken their sound up as to their ears it don't sound "bassy enough". They cut too much mids out of their sound, try running your amp flat across the board. It will probably sound terrible close up, but out in the crowd it will carry and sound just right. These days I tend to only cut and never boost the eq. The bass produces enough bass on its own to fill a room, its important to have all the freq of your bass evenly represented. If you stuff the amp and speakers with loads of low (overlow hehehe) it will work too hard and your sound won't carry. Your sound is made when it reflects off walls, hard surfaces, people, thats why I love the bass! it literally gets in your skin! The most amazing thing I used to do was for fun go out into the crowd ( i had a wireless system) and walk around the venue while playing. We all did. You get an amazing insite into your sound and how it carries and how it doesnt in certain places its a big eye opener. I found that a middly sound on stage (horrible) sounds uber bassy and cool in the crowd.... sweet.

But to make my point about the 2x10's to clarify if you are using front ported ones I think they will interfere with each other and probably cut your lows a bit. something to do with standing waves and wot not if they are rear ported they will be ok. You could try stacking them high ways if you see what I mean or try stacking the cabs so that the ports are furthest away from each other. The problem you see is if you have the ports close to each other the cabs steal each others air they need the air to produce the lows you are after.

[Ian Savage]

[quote name='dan670844' post='864559' date='Jun 11 2010, 06:34 PM']The most amazing thing I used to do was for fun go out into the crowd ( i had a wireless system) and walk around the venue while playing. We all did. You get an amazing insite into your sound and how it carries and how it doesnt in certain places its a big eye opener. I found that a middly sound on stage (horrible) sounds uber bassy and cool in the crowd.... sweet.[/quote]

That's a fair point - if you're not running through the PA with an engineer out front, the sound you're hearing onstage is going to be a fair bit different from what the crowd are hearing.

[51m0n]

[quote name='Count Bassie' post='864361' date='Jun 11 2010, 02:31 PM']Pretty good point- location in relation to ears! I was hearing a band once at a bar in Miami (Churchill's Hedeaway, if any of you "blokes" have spent any time in Miami)- Charlie Picket and the MC3. The bass player (Marco Petit, gone now, sorry) was playing his old Precision through an SWR Bassic 350 / Goliath II cab. Loud and clear, it was the most beautiful wooly sound I'd ever heard. The stage was about 4' off the floor and from a sitting position it was coming right at my head and chest. And it was perfect for the band. Wow.

The way you percieve sound as a player and from out front are quite different.

And... what you dial into your rig on your own and what it sounds like in the band mix-very different. What can come off as 'ugly' solo'd might really be perfect in the band.

I'd consider that adding a lot of low-bass boost can bury your band in murk, and takes more power from your amp to produce. Also, the bass guitar isn't really a "fundamental bass" instrument by nature- it's really producing mids and harmonics, mostly. So rather than trying to produce lows, you want to discover what feels and sounds good in the band's mix. And now I'm going off, I'll stop...

But, don't spend any more money- spend some time. Here's a link with some basics that seems solid: [url="http://bassguitarrocks.com/bass-amp-eq-for-beginners"]http://bassguitarrocks.com/bass-amp-eq-for-beginners[/url]

Here's an interesting eq experience from an electric/upright doubler: [url="http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2008/Mar/Bass_EQ_Basics.aspx"]http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issu..._EQ_Basics.aspx[/url][/quote]

Sorry but the information in the first link is just utter nonsense.

No bass cabs 'throw', rather sound gets quieter according to the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse-square_law"]Inverse Square Law[/url] in all cases, bass is no different.

In other words the volume decreases by half as the distance from the source is doubled.

That is an immutable law of acoustics.

If you walk through a room and the sound level in the bass raises and lowers this is a result of standing wave nodes within that space, additive nodes increase the volume where reflections from the walls combine with the sound from the source in phase, subtractive nodes decrease the volume where reflection from the walls combine with the sound from the source out of phase.

Putting blankets and egg boxes on a wall will change the way bass reflects of it in no way at all. Bass travels directly through these. Egg boxes have no practically useful acoustic properties whatsoever. Studios use serios depths of high and mid density rockwool in corners from floor to ceiling behind acoustically suitable fabric to act as bass traps, not egg shells.

The rule of thumb in that link about speaker diameter and distance from a wall is also tosh. There is no such link at all between cone diamter and distance or indeed speaker frequency response.

Keep your cab as close to the wall as you can. Bass frequencies radiate in all directions equally regardless of source (ie rear vs front ported). Over a couple of feet to about 10ft is a bad place to put a cab, since the reflection off the backwall will be out of phase with the directly radiated sound from the speaker in frequency ranges very important to your bass sound (ie below 150Hz), precise frequncy of phase cancellation is dependant upon the distance.

In contrast putting your cab in the middle of the room is not an issue at all. Except for the audience tripping over it.

Bottom line, if you cant hear your cab, start with the eq flat, the cab up high so that its pointing at your head, get the back of the cab within 6" of the back wall. Get the whole band to play, turn up your rig until you can hear yourself clearly. Have a long lead/wireless wander into the room and listen to the balance of the bass.

Too much boom - knock back the bass
Too honky - knock the mids back a bit
Too bright - knock back the top

Simple.

However remember that if a venue fills up with a lot of soft bodies then they will soak up treblle and mids and reflections in those frequencies. If the in empty venue you sound just right, then you probably need a tad more mids and treble, so knock the bass back a smidge, and turn everythin up....

Edited June 11, 2010 by 51m0n

[Delberthot]

You need a GK 700RB II and a trace 2x15" (there;s one on Ebay now but collection only)

Everyone's going to have their own story but I went through the phase of wanting smaller and lighter and this and that. The best results I've had for oomph have been with mainly older Trace stuff:

V-Type Combo & 1518 cab

1110 4x10" Mark V combo with the same cab

7210H & 1048H

Mark V AH150 with Trace 1248H

and onto the rig I am using now.

We've all heard it before but unless my back gives way or something else happens, this is my rig for as long as I can lift it.

[chrisd24]

Wow lots of info there!

Well i have had a good chance to play around with my amp this weekend, gigging in a couple of very different venues, and in a rehearsal situation and i am still at a bit of a loss, still can't get that "oomph"!

A few of you asked questions so i will try to answer them now

My bass is a precision with emg's.

The jam session was outside, combo was on a concrete floor about 10 feet away from a rear facing wall.

When we sound check i use a long lead and go into the crowd to hear the true represented sound.

My cabs are front ported.

One further thing, its only a 3 piece i play in, no drums, just either Accordion/guitar/vocals, banjo/guitar, fiddle/guitar, so its usually pretty easy to get a balance.

I'm starting to think i was just settling with the sound i have got used to, and now im looking for a sound that wont be achievable with my current setup, and if i shell out on some new cabs/amp etc am i possibly throwing money at a problem i can't solve?!