ooomph.....how do i get it?!

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='51m0n' post='864776' date='Jun 11 2010, 10:53 PM']Sorry but the information in the first link is just utter nonsense.

No bass cabs 'throw', rather sound gets quieter according to the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse-square_law"]Inverse Square Law[/url] in all cases, bass is no different.

In other words the volume decreases by half as the distance from the source is doubled.

That is an immutable law of acoustics.[/quote]

You do have boundary cancellation, which leads to the apparent effect that lows don't become audible until you reach a distance from a cab. The explanation offered there might be wrong. [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=38232&view=findpost&p=380903"]Citation.[/url]

[quote name='51m0n' post='864776' date='Jun 11 2010, 10:53 PM']The rule of thumb in that link about speaker diameter and distance from a wall is also tosh. There is no such link at all between cone diamter and distance or indeed speaker frequency response.[/quote]

Speaker diameter does effect the dispersion pattern or a speaker though, and since that would effect what frequencies are radiating around the driver sides and back, would therefore effect which ones are going to be bouncing off the walls there. There is also a correlation between cone diameter and frequency response off axis, which is where most ears will be, so there is an audible difference. [url="http://lowdownlowdown.com/greenboy/DL/tablesfrequency.htm"]Beaming frequencies[/url]. Bigger speakers also tend toward great volume displacement and sensitivity, because they are bigger, so you can get more lows than from an otherwise equivalent smaller diameter speaker.

[geoffbyrne]

[quote name='chrisd24' post='865840' date='Jun 13 2010, 12:04 PM']The jam session was outside, combo was on a concrete floor about 10 feet away from a rear facing wall.[/quote]

There's your problems right there!

Playing outside - you get no reflection and your sound will seem 'empty' in comparison to inside, and playing 10 feet away from a wall on concrete gives you no help at all.

G.

[bassicinstinct]

[quote name='geoffbyrne' post='865914' date='Jun 13 2010, 01:24 PM']There's your problems right there!

Playing outside - you get no reflection and your sound will seem 'empty' in comparison to inside, and playing 10 feet away from a wall on concrete gives you no help at all.

G.[/quote]

But wasn't it at the jam session, using the "house" bass combo, that he was [i][b]happy[/b][/i] with his sound?

[chrisd24]

[quote name='bassicinstinct' post='865969' date='Jun 13 2010, 02:29 PM']But wasn't it at the jam session, using the "house" bass combo, that he was [i][b]happy[/b][/i] with his sound? [/quote]

yes it was the outside jam with the combo when it sounded great!

[dan670844]

[quote name='chrisd24' post='866225' date='Jun 13 2010, 06:06 PM']yes it was the outside jam with the combo when it sounded great![/quote]

I still think it could be a porting issue. the whole idea of ports is to help with the lows / make the cab more efficient at the low end. to do this they need air. I used a couple of front ported 2x10's once (they where avatars) all I had to do a gig. On there own they sounded great, stacked they sounded like a tranny radio. There was some crazy air robbing thing going on I guess. My advice would be try one cab on its own and play with the EQ. See what you get at low volumes. I don't know what 10's you have in your cab but most (except high end stuff) can only handle 70Hz at the low end with any sort of efficiency. So if you want the low end beef you need a matched 15" that can handle 35Hz. But don't loose heart if its an old Peavey, Trace Elliot, Carlsbro or Laney. They where pretty amazing and there isn't much these days with that low punch at a reasonable price point, Different days!

[geoffbyrne]

[quote name='bassicinstinct' post='865969' date='Jun 13 2010, 02:29 PM']But wasn't it at the jam session, using the "house" bass combo, that he was [i][b]happy[/b][/i] with his sound? [/quote]


DOH!!!!!!



G.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='dan670844' post='866533' date='Jun 13 2010, 10:07 PM']I don't know what 10's you have in your cab but most (except high end stuff) can only handle 70Hz at the low end with any sort of efficiency. So if you want the low end beef you need a matched 15" that can handle 35Hz.[/quote]

Aren't really any 15s that will do 35hz in a bass rigable size (just checked Kappalite 3015LF, even as a sub, Eminence suggest high passing at 35hz). You don't need that low. 50hz is plenty low for most purposes.

Edited June 13, 2010 by Mr. Foxen

[dan670844]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='866575' date='Jun 13 2010, 11:01 PM']Aren't really any 15s that will do 35hz in a bass rigable size (just checked Kappalite 3015LF, even as a sub, Eminence suggest high passing at 35hz). You don't need that low. 50hz is plenty low for most purposes.[/quote]

Yes I agree I was really talking about ported cabs and the much maliged frequency response range, and only as a method of 'easy'cab selection. I know from experience certain manufacturers cabs paticularly the 15"s with a low frequency response can handle the lows (45-70Hz) much better. If anyone has ever used a Laney RB115 for example (but there are others by Trace, Carlsbro, Peavey) they will know what I mean. Unless you do something silly they never fart out, but to me they are not giggable they are old school heavy and washing machine big.

[51m0n]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='865869' date='Jun 13 2010, 12:31 PM']You do have boundary cancellation, which leads to the apparent effect that lows don't become audible until you reach a distance from a cab. The explanation offered there might be wrong. [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=38232&view=findpost&p=380903"]Citation.[/url][/quote]

Yes, I agree, I even mentioned this!

Thus 'throw' is not real, instead it is the result of cancellation with boundary reflections giving the impression of 'throw'.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='865869' date='Jun 13 2010, 12:31 PM']Speaker diameter does effect the dispersion pattern or a speaker though, and since that would effect what frequencies are radiating around the driver sides and back, would therefore effect which ones are going to be bouncing off the walls there. There is also a correlation between cone diameter and frequency response off axis, which is where most ears will be, so there is an audible difference. [url="http://lowdownlowdown.com/greenboy/DL/tablesfrequency.htm"]Beaming frequencies[/url]. Bigger speakers also tend toward great volume displacement and sensitivity, because they are bigger, so you can get more lows than from an otherwise equivalent smaller diameter speaker.[/quote]

Beaming is where the frequencies [b]above[/b] a certain point disperse less well. Look in the table you linked to and that is 1Khz for a 15" and 1.6KHz for a 10" cone. Below that you have less beaming issues. Low frequencies disperse evenly.

He was lacking oomph, which is to be found in the lo mids normally, or around 250-400Hz. Where beaming is not an issue. These are the frequencies that [b]do[/b] radiate around the back and sides, and that therefore [b]do[/b] suffer cancellation from rear wall refelcetions out of phase.

Edited June 14, 2010 by 51m0n

[51m0n]

[quote name='dan670844' post='866533' date='Jun 13 2010, 10:07 PM']I still think it could be a porting issue. the whole idea of ports is to help with the lows / make the cab more efficient at the low end. to do this they need air.[b] I used a couple of front ported 2x10's once (they where avatars) all I had to do a gig. On there own they sounded great, stacked they sounded like a tranny radio. There was some crazy air robbing thing going on I guess[/b]. My advice would be try one cab on its own and play with the EQ. See what you get at low volumes. I don't know what 10's you have in your cab but most (except high end stuff) can only handle 70Hz at the low end with any sort of efficiency. So if you want the low end beef you need a matched 15" that can handle 35Hz. But don't loose heart if its an old Peavey, Trace Elliot, Carlsbro or Laney. They where pretty amazing and there isn't much these days with that low punch at a reasonable price point, Different days![/quote]

That sounds much more like an out of phase pair of speakers to me. That is internally wired out of phase - yes it can happen!

Porting the cab adds that lower octave back - that is the point of it. 35Hz is an octave below 70Hz...

The point is cab design defines the cabs frequency range, not driver design (so much).

Example:-
I have a couple of pairs of old TDL hifi speakers at home, Studio 0.75ms and RTL3s, the .75s have a 6" metal cone, the RTLs have a pair of 8" reinforced paper cones. The RTLs are significantly larger. Which is bassier? Well on first listen the .75s are far deeper, they are a Transmission Line 1/4 wavelength design, massively efficient in extremely deep bass - they go way lower than anything else I've heard, even though they only have a 6" cone! They suffer a lack of low mid detail though. The RTLs have masses of low mid detail: one of the pair of drivers provides for low mid, the other is at the end of a transmission line. In fact they extend about as deep as the .75s but as they are so even it doesnt really sound like they do - they dont rob the mids to show off the bass in other words. The RTLs have a higher impedance but are nevertheless way more sensitive than the .75ms

My point? Speaker diameter alone does not bear relevance to the depth a cab can deliver, the timbre of the cab, or its sensitivity. Alex C and BFM have both repeatedly stated that getting hung up on driver diameter and wattage (thermal handling) is missing the point completely.

[chrisd24]

Well everything taken into account (and wow a lot to take in!) i have decided to update my cabs....so my next question, what cabs to get?

I really liked the flexibility of having 2 2x10s, for transport reasons, and also i could just run one at a time in smaller venues.

The style of music i play is Irish/Celtic, bluegrass and country, and no drummer to contend with either so all i really want is a nice clear warm tone,with some punch....is that asking for much?!

As far as budget goes i guess around the £500 - £600 mark, i know there is plenty for sale on here but as i know so little about cabs i barely know what i'm looking at!

Any suggestions would be really appreciated (as is all the info provided so far)

Thanks in advance,

Chris.

[Mr. Foxen]

That budget would get you a Barefaced Compact, which is a 1x15, and for a little over budget (once shipping is factored in) a Barefaced super twelve 2x12. Those kick you into 'next generation' territory over most 2x10s you'll come across. Ridiculously light and will go shockingly loud compared with 'standard' cabs. If you don't have a drummer or a ridiculous valve stack to compete with, a Compact should sort you. Haven't personally tried the super twelve, but I'd anticipate the same but more so compared to the Compact.

[dan670844]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='868156' date='Jun 15 2010, 04:46 PM']That budget would get you a Barefaced Compact, which is a 1x15, and for a little over budget (once shipping is factored in) a Barefaced super twelve 2x12. Those kick you into 'next generation' territory over most 2x10s you'll come across. Ridiculously light and will go shockingly loud compared with 'standard' cabs. If you don't have a drummer or a ridiculous valve stack to compete with, a Compact should sort you. Haven't personally tried the super twelve, but I'd anticipate the same but more so compared to the Compact.[/quote]

+1 if you are looking for warm rounded sound, plenty loud enough

[chrisd24]

must admit you only seem to hear good things about barefaced cabs, will my amp be a descent match for a compact?

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='chrisd24' post='868214' date='Jun 15 2010, 05:45 PM']must admit you only seem to hear good things about barefaced cabs, will my amp be a descent match for a compact?[/quote]

I reckon so, don't see any reason why not. Does it have the built in limiter DDT protection or something, that lots of Peavey heads have? I reckon you'll probably clip the head before the cab.

[stevie]

Getting oomph is directly related to minimizing losses in your system. You will need a low distortion amp with a stiff power supply that can keep supplying hefty transients without collapsing. You'll also need a stiff speaker cabinet, heavily braced and a speaker chassis with a high BL (i.e. a generous magnet to cone ratio), low distortion and breakup.

All the systems with 'slam' that I've heard have shared these characteristics. It's easier to get with horn loading, which is another way of minimizing system losses. At the front end (though I wouldn't swear to it) I've found that pickups with larger magnets (1/4 pounders and Stingray type) tend to have more oomph. But the secret is a punchy amp and a very stiff cabinet containing a high quality speaker. IMO, of course.

[chrisd24]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='868245' date='Jun 15 2010, 06:15 PM']I reckon so, don't see any reason why not. Does it have the built in limiter DDT protection or something, that lots of Peavey heads have? I reckon you'll probably clip the head before the cab.[/quote]

yeah its got the ddt protector thingimy, think i can only run 300 watts at 8ohm's anyway so shouldn't be a problem.

[dan670844]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='868245' date='Jun 15 2010, 06:15 PM']I reckon so, don't see any reason why not. Does it have the built in limiter DDT protection or something, that lots of Peavey heads have? I reckon you'll probably clip the head before the cab.[/quote]

Oh yeah turn it off!!

[chrisd24]

[quote name='dan670844' post='868262' date='Jun 15 2010, 06:39 PM']Oh yeah turn it off!![/quote]

Turn off the DDT?

[dan670844]

[quote name='chrisd24' post='868272' date='Jun 15 2010, 06:49 PM']Turn off the DDT?[/quote]

I think we have stumbled on the problem Sir!.... possibly

The DDT on some Peavey amps is really very harsh and comes in like a wreaking ball. Turn it off and the amp clips, you can't win. Its designed to protect the amp and speakers thats it, most unmusical. I had a real nightmare with one at a rehearsal room. When I comes in you loose all the oomph! (low end) What you need to do is really pay attention to your input gain. When you are playing check if the DDT light comes on. Even if its not it comes in waves so it may be limiting. So try turning your input gain down a bit. They are nice amps and very underated if you can get around this little feature.

[Mr. Foxen]

Pretty sure leaving the limiter on is a good thing. It sounds horrible, but it isn't breaking your tweeter by clipping your power section. It only comes on if you are asking more of your amp than it can give.

[chrisd24]

[quote name='dan670844' post='868305' date='Jun 15 2010, 07:30 PM']I think we have stumbled on the problem Sir!.... possibly

The DDT on some Peavey amps is really very harsh and comes in like a wreaking ball. Turn it off and the amp clips, you can't win. Its designed to protect the amp and speakers thats it, most unmusical. I had a real nightmare with one at a rehearsal room. When I comes in you loose all the oomph! (low end) What you need to do is really pay attention to your input gain. When you are playing check if the DDT light comes on. Even if its not it comes in waves so it may be limiting. So try turning your input gain down a bit. They are nice amps and very underated if you can get around this little feature.[/quote]

Unfortunately i never have it turned on!

i have played around with it before but as i never really drive the amp that hard i have never really needed it.

What i am loving most about this thread (alongside all the info of course) is my now slowly rising gas for a barefaced compact, after doing a fair bit of research i think its time to place a topic in the wanted section!

[dan670844]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='868312' date='Jun 15 2010, 07:35 PM']Pretty sure leaving the limiter on is a good thing. It sounds horrible, but it isn't breaking your tweeter by clipping your power section. It only comes on if you are asking more of your amp than it can give.[/quote]


Of course it is I was being ferss or whatever I can't spell!

[dan670844]

[quote name='chrisd24' post='868317' date='Jun 15 2010, 07:39 PM']Unfortunately i never have it turned on!

i have played around with it before but as i never really drive the amp that hard i have never really needed it.

What i am loving most about this thread (alongside all the info of course) is my now slowly rising gas for a barefaced compact, after doing a fair bit of research i think its time to place a topic in the wanted section![/quote]


Maybe you don't have your input gain high enough then! All the Barefaced cabs are very nice and worth the money and no I am not on commission. More GAS how about a nice Hartke LH1000 or LH500? a lot more dynamic range than your current amp. Or even a power amp/ rack preamp ........ he he he Gas never ends. I go through amps / cabs like a hot knife, I always loose money, time. I always end up with the same setup in the end, but hey its fun!

[Count Bassie]

Edit: Sorry, I'm always late with these posts!

Quick chime-in: If you set your input gain so that that little light doesn't come on, you can pump up your master- or output- gain pretty good. Next is setting the eq so that you get the most volume from the least turning of that master gain knob. It's been said, lo-mids are your ticket to the land of oomph.

Where's J.R.R. Tolkien when you really want him around?...

So, if you haven't been through this already:
Turn you master gain (volume) all the way down.
Play your bass like you mean it, and slowly turn up your input gain...
Whe the 'light' begins to blink, back off that input gain.
Now you can punch the master volume.

Oomph!

Edited June 15, 2010 by Count Bassie