Advice on creating "softer" bass riffs

[Annoying Twit]

When I sit down to "jam", I enjoy coming up with bass riffs. However, they seem to be all of a certain flavour. Too "hard", too "regular", and minor pentatonic-ish. I seem to fall into rhythmic patterns that do include syncopation, but a bit "1980s synth pop bass line", too few notes with too much emphasis on individual notes. I think the following song (not me of course!) is a good example of the kind of thing I end up with:

[url="http://www.we7.com/#/track/Jijy!trackId=3929555"]http://www.we7.com/#/track/Jijy!trackId=3929555[/url]

I've tried making riffs from major scales, but I seem to end up with something that sounds too "children's song". I'm thinking something like the riff to The Beatles "Something" or even "Silly Love Songs".

Any hints as to where I can go to in terms of scales and rhythms?

[51m0n]

Couldnt get the track to play, so what I'm about to suggest may be useless

This is really common IME.

What to do?

Well, try to work at arpeggios more, get less linear, break out of the box - there are umpteen different threads about effective ways to learn the fingerboard and so on, try some.

Stop sitting down and saying I will jam now, instead go learn something new (minor sixth arpegios in two octaves for instance), then spend an hour playing with reordering the notes, so rather than going 1 - 3 - 5 - 6 - O, try 6 -3 - 1 - 5, just anything that stays with that new arpeggio set of notes. Allow yourself to dupicate notes (ie 3 -3 - 6 - 1 -5). This is all helped if you can get the underlying triads recorded to play over (under?)

Dont worry what it sounds like yet, just experiment, use different octaves.

Next really really really think about staccato vs legato, you are very likely (like most of us) to be fairly staccato, it helps in bands to make things feel tight, and to not be that big drone of mud. But its easy for this to become all you do, so spend some time working around note lengths, not cutting anything short. Mix it up.

Rhythmically move away from down beats or straight eights, either go longer or more syncopated, you dont want to get shorter than 8ths, if you want flowing soaring lines IMO...

You will probably find this lot generates a few new ideas.

From there I'd look at sliding into notes, hammering on and pulling off notes (not all of them, the art is in where and when) to smooth the flow more. Just avoid anything to do with simple box shape scalar movement, thats whats most likely causing your issues...

And thats just a single chord. Next try having just a couple of chords to move between....

Good luck!

[Annoying Twit]

Thanks. You're absolutely right on the money. By random chance I have both a bass with me, and my Vox Amplug thingie, and my communal office is deserted. Even looking at the basic arpeggios on [url="http://www.cyberfretbass.com/arpeggios/basic/index.php"]http://www.cyberfretbass.com/arpeggios/basic/index.php[/url], there's clearly going to be a lot of value in the arpeggios. I was thinking that when I was playing that in going through the scales I'd be including the arpeggios, but I was sticking with what was comfortable. When playing any jump where I fret a higher or lower string with the same finger as the previous note, particularly the pinkie, I found it extremely clumsy. So I clearly haven't been doing that. But I was finding even major key patterns/riffs, and then by introducing a bit of variety, made them sound not so "children's song".

I'll check out arpeggios for more than the basic major and minor triads too. Ta muchly.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Annoying Twit

[51m0n]

Cool, the thing you'll find with the slightly less basic arpeggios (6th, 7th etc) is that those extra notes are the colour of the chord, a minor chord with a major 6th (2nd chord in the Major scale series) supports the Dorain (2nd) mode. ALl this stuff is linked, but the arpeggios let you concentrate on the colour.

It will take you a while to get this all going, but in doing this kind of experimentation and playing about you will rapidly expand the kind of things you come up with.

Another brilliant way of changing what you play is to have a chord sequence, then put your bass done and sing/hum or mumble a line to go with it. Record the mumble, then figure it out on bass. In all likelihood it will be far more melodic, and interesting than anything you would come up with with a bass in your hands....

[Hector]

I'd chip in by saying that your voice on the bass is formed by a solid mix of what's already in your head, and what you cram into it through your ear-holes. A general tip is to listen to some examples of playing that you particularly like, and then compare it to your playing. What do you like about it? What makes it different to how you play? Internalise some groovy ideas from playing you like and pop it into your playing. I used to do this all the time when I first started playing bass (and tbh, I ought to be still doing it more than I am atm!), and it was fairly fruitful for me when I was in a similar situation riff-wise. The concept of"ideas" here is very loose - could be anything as simple as a geometric pattern on the fingerboard, or anything as complicated as a tasy chord substitution on the fly; and it can be in terms of whatever level of theory that you're comfortable with. It could be a rhythmic or harmonic idea, or it could even be technique-based.

This all probably a long-winded truism, but it took me a little while to realise how useful a way of thinking this could be.

[Annoying Twit]

Sorry to bump an old thread, but this advice led me to practicing triads rather than just "jamming", and got me to finally get out my copy of Bass Guitar For Dummies, which I got some time ago and hadn't applied. And now I think enough has been incorporated to say that this problem has been solved. I'm now happy with the major key bass grooves I'm coming up with, and my main limiting factor now is probably dexterity, and I know what to do about that. Still a lot to do, but this thread and its consequences has done me a lot of good.

[urb]

One of the best bits of advice I've heard recently was from Mr Vic Wooten - that in a nutshell is no matter what scale or arpeggio you are practicing - try and make it groove.. so in a sense you're doing two things at once: familiarizing yourself with a new scale or pattern but also creating a new bass line as well. It really works and is actually a short cut to playing new information in a 'musical' way instead of trying to 'work it up to speed' - which will happen over time any way - but this way you can focus on creating solid phrases in a way that is far more practical than just trying to shred

One other nugget of advice from VW is also to play all your ideas across the full range of dynamics - so from very light and soft to hard and aggressive - and maintaining the groove at all times and dynamic levels.

[Annoying Twit]

Thanks for that. I have been trying to put a "groove" into what I'm doing. My regular practice for arpeggios and scales is to start playing them straight, then start playing around with rhythms, and then make up grooves based on the scale or arpeggio. I think that's what you are suggesting.

But I haven't been playing around with dynamics much. I'll definitely be applying the second hint from now on.

[Lord Sausage]

Get Stoned! Absorb more music! By osmosis!

[Fat Rich]

Victor Wooten says use the chromatic scale, but it can sound a bit "out there" for some types of music.

But you could also try chromatic approaches to strong chord tones - if the root note of the chord is D for example, play B, C, C# to get to D. Or downwards approaches sometimes F, E, D# to D to mix it up a bit.

It adds tension and release to your lines and sometimes you can play some almost completely chromatic lines over chord changes if you approach the 5th of a chord instead of the root. Or the 3rd or 7th although it can start to sound a bit unfocussed if you overdo it!

[Joe Hubbard Bass]

Transcription is the best way and quickest route to understand how to create happening lines whether they are supportive bass lines or linear improvisation. This is a direct route to integrating the "attributes"”(not the techniques) as they relate to melody, rhythm and harmony into your playing. In other words, model what has already been done at an expert level. Many are mislead that transcription only involves figuring out what has been played and then writing it down.

However, that's only the first step- from there that you have to learn to play every aspect of the performance- every articulation and nuance. Remember, the "music" came first, then people started to formulate and organise systems- not the other way around. Have you ever known people who know and practice scales all day, but can't play? Always, start with the music first; from there, work backwards reverse engineering to come up with skill drills to practice. By adopting this, your playing will improve exponentially within the next three to six months.

Hope that helps

Peace

Joe

Edited August 24, 2010 by Joe Hubbard Bass

[Annoying Twit]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I've certainly been finding out that some of the bass lines I like feature a lot of chromatic movement. But while I thought my ear was OK, I'm finding it tricky working out exactly what the riff/groove is. More practice needed of course One bass line I've learned for osmosis purposes is Stevie Wonder's "I wish". Nice bit of chromatic movement in that, and if we view it as a call response, the "response" is interesting, being played in two different octaves. Though, I've learnt it twice now. Once as the tab I found had it, then once with entirely different fingering and string choices in order to avoid jumping from position to position for no obvious reason. There's also the problem of spotting exactly how notes are played. E.g., not a chromatic line, but the main line from "Another One Bites The Dust" sometimes starts the main riff with a few grace notes. I started playing them with a pull-off on the 1st to 2nd grace note. Upon listening carefully, I don't think there's a real pull-off there. But, it sounds better if I use it :humourously-confused-smilely-if-we-had-one:

[iamthewalrus]

[quote name='Joe Hubbard Bass' post='934752' date='Aug 24 2010, 01:43 PM']Transcription is the best way and quickest route to understand how to create happening lines whether they are supportive bass lines or linear improvisation. This is a direct route to integrating the "attributes"”(not the techniques) as they relate to melody, rhythm and harmony into your playing. In other words, model what has already been done at an expert level. Many are mislead that transcription only involves figuring out what has been played and then writing it down.

However, that's only the first step- from there that you have to learn to play every aspect of the performance- every articulation and nuance. Remember, the "music" came first, then people started to formulate and organise systems- not the other way around. Have you ever known people who know and practice scales all day, but can't play? Always, start with the music first; from there, work backwards reverse engineering to come up with skill drills to practice. By adopting this, your playing will improve exponentially within the next three to six months.

Hope that helps

Peace

Joe[/quote]

Great to see you on here Joe - remember your classes at the 2nd London Bass Centre Weekend in 1988 very well. Still enjoy listening to "Vanishing Point" from time to time too. Are you still playing your Peavey 6?

Cheers,
iamthewalrus

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='urb' post='915780' date='Aug 5 2010, 11:58 AM']One of the best bits of advice I've heard recently was from Mr Vic Wooten - that in a nutshell is no matter what scale or arpeggio you are practicing - try and make it groove.. so in a sense you're doing two things at once: familiarizing yourself with a new scale or pattern but also creating a new bass line as well. It really works and is actually a short cut to playing new information in a 'musical' way instead of trying to 'work it up to speed' - which will happen over time any way - but this way you can focus on creating solid phrases in a way that is far more practical than just trying to shred

One other nugget of advice from VW is also to play all your ideas across the full range of dynamics - so from very light and soft to hard and aggressive - and maintaining the groove at all times and dynamic levels.[/quote]

Totally agree. The groove is king.

[Annoying Twit]

This is coming along for me. One thing that's happened is that I've started recognising more of what's going on in some bass that I hear. I can't remember which song but I was listening to some bass on a Steely Dan (or was it Donald Fagen) track, and then I suddenly could hear it as a major triad with some passing notes from the major scale.

Don't want to say which track though as (a) I can't remember, and ( b ) the risk of me saying which track and it being from a different scale

The other thing I've been able to do is start putting far more chromatic "bits" into riffs/grooves/lines. My aim is to come up with something that could be a whole verse or so, which is just chromatic movement, with judiciously chosen rhythm and changes of direction. (I'm sure it's been done).

Odd thing thought. I'm getting better at the two octave major scales from "Bass Guitar for Dummies". As I get more fluent with those scales, it starts sounding more like a "line" than a scale, while scales in the "box" tend to sound more like .... scales in the "box". I wonder if it's because me having to move my hand position once per string is putting a bit more variation into the playing.

Edited September 7, 2010 by Annoying Twit