Playing So What...

[faceman]

Right guys...I've got a gig next week where I'm doing a jazz set, an excellent first for me. Besides slapping some flatwounds on my 4003, I've been practising like hell. We are doing Watermelon Man, Moondance, Autumn Leaves and a few others to be decided. The quartet have also we are doing So What, which is posing a challenge. I asked the pianist about what to play but he said he couldn't explain it as his theory of jazz isn't good enough. I've followed a transcription of [url="http://www.bassmasta.net/d/davis,_miles/102723.html"]http://www.bassmasta.net/d/davis,_miles/102723.html[/url] for the main riff, which seems to be fine for the introduction and free form section. He said I [b]could not [/b]do anything on a blues scale as it would just sound wrong.

So can someone with a knowledge a theory, modes and modal jazz give me a brief explanation of how I can play this and improvise where needed...I'm not looking for anything amazing, just how I can do the introduction and some walking in the right places. I've got a bit of an idea about modes but not enough

Thanks

[Doddy]

First of all,I wouldn't bother with that TAB-see if you can find a proper lead sheet-it'll make more sense.

Basically(because it's late and I'm tired), 'So What' is just two chords,Dm7 and Ebm7. In that case,the simplest way to approach it is with the Dorian mode,which works perfectly over a minor 7 chord. A Dorian mode is basically a minor scale with a raised 6. Try using this as the basis for walking through the piece.
Also,go and listen to how Paul Chambers plays it on 'Kind of Blue'.

I hope this makes sense-if it doesn't,just ask.

[foal30]

Moondance is great. Bilbo will be along presently to give plenty of advice on this one.

So What. sometimes people forget 16/8/8. it sounds easy but try and stay on this. half the band a semi-tone away is not always happening, even in Jazz

[OutToPlayJazz]

So What is a bass-led line where you basically play the head. As soon as the drivers install for our new office printer/scanner I'll scan my lead bass sheet for you. It has the full layout on it

[chris_b]

[quote name='faceman' post='878550' date='Jun 27 2010, 12:50 AM']....I've got a gig next week where I'm doing a jazz set....We are doing....Moondance....[/quote]
Sound of Bilbo's breakfast hitting the kitchen wall!!!

[faceman]

Excellent thanks so much guys, great response as ever! Rich, do send over your bass transcription and I will see what I can do. The gig is on Friday so the sooner you can send it, the better

Am I right in saying that the introduction and main riff are quite rigid but for the long solo section it's just doing something walking?

[OutToPlayJazz]

Hi Seb, the solo section is anything you like based on sixteen bars of Dm7, eight bars of EbM7 and then eight bars of Dm7. Scan coming through in a few mins...

[derrenleepoole]

So What is one of those compositions that can make or break a good jazz band IMHO. It's a deceptively simple piece yet is difficult to maintain interest in the playing if the performers are not all all that. Not saying you're not good or anything you understand - just an observation. It's simple structure means it can be very easy to get lost in the piece... which bar are we on again? Because there is so little to it compositionally, there's little to hide behind so the whole rhythn section is very exposed. It's one of those pieces I simply won't attempt live

[OutToPlayJazz]

Here you go...



Listen to the original recording from the Miles Davis "Kind of blue" album on you tube and follow this copy through. It'll all make sense

Edited June 27, 2010 by OutToPlayJazz

[faceman]

Cool thanks Rich, now that I can actually read sheet music this makes more sense. If I am right, does the main riff kick in and repeat at 1, and then changes at 2. Before that, is that the introduction?

I just need to work out what to do on the solo wandering section now

[Bilbo]

All these standards are pretty much Jazz 101. The dorian minor is the way to go on So What, as Doddy says but, as was also said, you will lose the form every now and then (we all did it...). Just look to the pianist for the cue to go to Eb.

As for Moondance; don't worry. You can't polish that turd.....

[derrenleepoole]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='878771' date='Jun 27 2010, 12:44 PM']As for Moondance; don't worry. You can't polish that turd.....[/quote]

Moondance was the very first composition I managed to do a reasonable walking bass line on

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='derrenleepoole' post='879597' date='Jun 28 2010, 09:51 AM']Moondance was the very first composition I managed to do a reasonable walking bass line on [/quote]
Thats because it has none of the sensibilities of a real jazz standard, the movement between the chords is non typical in harmonic progression when compared to the run of the mill standard, and the reference (the original bass line) is someone who clearly has no clue about the idiom flailing around like a coked up jellyfish.
Sorry to piss on your chips a bit but I detest moondance with (I reckon) even more vehemence than Bilbo, although being the consummate professional means I will play it with a smile on my face (for money of course) because playing bass is the best job in the world.

As for So What, listen to the original 60 times in a row (I am deadly serious) The sound will become natural to you after a while when you have done that play through the changes slowly without really (at first) trying to stick necessarily to time or form, just investigate the sound on different parts of your bass. Then listen again... rinse and repeat slowly learning the parameters of the form and time, do that until you sound so solid on those chords that if you were hit with a hammer you wouldn't drop a beat.

Edited June 28, 2010 by jakesbass

[yorick]

I was hoping this was going to be the Anti-Nowhere-League song....

[51m0n]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='879615' date='Jun 28 2010, 10:07 AM']Thats because it has none of the sensibilities of a real jazz standard, the movement between the chords is non typical in harmonic progression when compared to the run of the mill standard, and the reference (the original bass line) is someone who clearly has no clue about the idiom [b]flailing around like a coked up jellyfish.[/b][/quote]

Thanks for that Jake - cheered me up a lot!

[derrenleepoole]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='879615' date='Jun 28 2010, 10:07 AM']Thats because it has none of the sensibilities of a real jazz standard, the movement between the chords is non typical in harmonic progression when compared to the run of the mill standard, and the reference (the original bass line) is someone who clearly has no clue about the idiom flailing around like a coked up jellyfish.[/quote]

Perhaps, but to a spotty 18 year old learning their chops it's not a bad place to start and provides a good building block to work from, whether or not it's typical of a proper jazz tune or not. This statement I feel sums up the snobbery sometimes inherent in music these days (not just jazz mind). As we all know, it's only the musicians who care about such things, the audience couldn't give a damn right? As long as it sounds good and they can sing along to it Being clued up on all the intricacies of jazz harmony is one thing, but let's not lose sight of the fact that we're here to make music, and that's all that matters ultimately. The fact that you felt the need to play me down on this and piss on my chips as you put it, perhaps shows a lack of understanding of what it is to feel like you've achieved something early on in your musical development. 20 years down the line as a player, I look back on this achievement with fondness, not because it was an amazing feat of musical prowess, simply because it marked a turning point in my understanding of how to play the bass. Sorry if it doesn't meet up to you obviously superior musicianship! Jeez!

Edited June 28, 2010 by derrenleepoole

[endorka]

[quote name='faceman' post='878749' date='Jun 27 2010, 12:00 PM']Cool thanks Rich, now that I can actually read sheet music this makes more sense. If I am right, does the main riff kick in and repeat at 1, and then changes at 2. Before that, is that the introduction?[/quote]

That transcription doesn't include the intro as such, if you're referring to the slightly random bass/piano straight eighths bit before the head, which is the "bah-doo-be-da-de-da-da-dum" bit . This is logical as I've yet to encounter any jazz combo that actually plays this part live, the common thing to do is start straight on the head.

Outoplayjazz, would you normally play the melody on the head an octave higher?

Jennifer

Edited June 28, 2010 by endorka

[faceman]

[quote name='endorka' post='879658' date='Jun 28 2010, 10:39 AM']That transcription doesn't include the intro as such, if you're referring to the slightly random bass/piano straight eighths bit before the head, which is the "bah-doo-be-da-de-da-da-dum" bit . This is logical as I've yet to encounter any jazz combo that actually plays this part live, the common thing to do is start straight on the head.

Outoplayjazz, would you normally play the melody on the head an octave higher?

Jennifer[/quote]

Yep that's what I was doing, starting around the twelfth fret, I managed to get through it, although I'm going to sit down and work it out properly because my walking bit was crap. Because I'm not 100% sure of the parameters of the dorian mode yet, I didn't want to stray too much.

Pianist has got the original score of Kind of Blue so going to sit down through that this afternoon and see what Mr Chambers was doing

[fatback]

[quote name='derrenleepoole' post='879633' date='Jun 28 2010, 10:19 AM']Perhaps, but to a spotty 18 year old learning their chops it's not a bad place to start and provides a good building block to work from, whether or not it's typical of a proper jazz tune or not. This statement I feel sums up the snobbery sometimes inherent in music these days (not just jazz mind). As we all know, it's only the musicians who care about such things, the audience couldn't give a damn right? As long as it sounds good and they can sing along to it Being clued up on all the intricacies of jazz harmony is one thing, but let's not lose sight of the fact that we're here to make music, and that's all that matters ultimately.[/quote]

+1

As a popular tune, it's a classic, and folks love it. It works, so where's the problem?

[derrenleepoole]

[quote name='fatback' post='879694' date='Jun 28 2010, 11:14 AM']+1

As a popular tune, it's a classic, and folks love it. It works, so where's the problem?[/quote]

Cheers mate

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='derrenleepoole' post='879633' date='Jun 28 2010, 10:19 AM']Perhaps, but to a spotty 18 year old learning their chops it's not a bad place to start and provides a good building block to work from, whether or not it's typical of a proper jazz tune or not. This statement I feel sums up the snobbery sometimes inherent in music these days (not just jazz mind). As we all know, it's only the musicians who care about such things, the audience couldn't give a damn right? As long as it sounds good and they can sing along to it Being clued up on all the intricacies of jazz harmony is one thing, but let's not lose sight of the fact that we're here to make music, and that's all that matters ultimately. The fact that you felt the need to play me down on this and piss on my chips as you put it, perhaps shows a lack of understanding of what it is to feel like you've achieved something early on in your musical development. 20 years down the line as a player, I look back on this achievement with fondness, not because it was an amazing feat of musical prowess, simply because it marked a turning point in my understanding of how to play the bass. Sorry if it doesn't meet up to you obviously superior musicianship! Jeez![/quote]
Sorry it was not meant as personally as it seems to have ended up, I'm definitely not inclined to be snobbish, I just don't like the tune but I do see the value in it being a gentle introduction, so apologies again if my tongue in cheek felt too close to the bone, honestly not intended. As for the milestone element, absolutely I agree with you that what seems important at the time can be superceded and we should remember the early steps we took. My vitriol may well come from the fact that I've had to play it about 10,000 times, but as I say even then I still feel privileged to play bass for a living, and I agree that we should keep an eye on keeping the punters happy, after all they make the job possible.
Not meant personally, so please accept my apology.
Jake

[derrenleepoole]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='879713' date='Jun 28 2010, 11:40 AM']Sorry it was not meant as personally as it seems to have ended up, I'm definitely not inclined to be snobbish, I just don't like the tune but I do see the value in it being a gentle introduction, so apologies again if my tongue in cheek felt too close to the bone, honestly not intended. As for the milestone element, absolutely I agree with you that what seems important at the time can be superceded and we should remember the early steps we took. My vitriol may well come from the fact that I've had to play it about 10,000 times, but as I say even then I still feel privileged to play bass for a living, and I agree that we should keep an eye on keeping the punters happy, after all they make the job possible.
Not meant personally, so please accept my apology.
Jake[/quote]

Hey man, that's cool... I completely understand, no apology necessary You're right though, the milestones that make us a players do get superceded in time and it's very easy to forget humble beginnings. Something I have to remind myself constantly about this being a graphic designer for a living. Not all clients understands good use of type, composition and form and only ever see the '£' symbol attached to the job forgetting the basics of why they ask you to do the job in the first place. Sometimes, it feels like I'm starting a fresh with each new job, and it does get tiresome, especially when you've done 1000's of jobs.

Edited June 28, 2010 by derrenleepoole

[bassicinstinct]

[quote name='Doddy' post='878586' date='Jun 27 2010, 04:46 AM']First of all,I wouldn't bother with that TAB-see if you can find a proper lead sheet-it'll make more sense.

Basically(because it's late and I'm tired), 'So What' is just two chords,Dm7 and Ebm7. In that case,the simplest way to approach it is with the Dorian mode,which works perfectly over a minor 7 chord. A Dorian mode is basically a minor scale with a raised 6. Try using this as the basis for walking through the piece.
Also,go and listen to how Paul Chambers plays it on 'Kind of Blue'.

I hope this makes sense-if it doesn't,just ask.[/quote]

+1.

Makes[i][b] perfect[/b][/i] sense to me.

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='878739' date='Jun 27 2010, 11:51 AM']Here you go...



Listen to the original recording from the Miles Davis "Kind of blue" album on you tube and follow this copy through. It'll all make sense [/quote]
This is gonna sound very pedantic ! BUT

This hand written copy has several mistakes (assuming you want to get somewhere close to the original).

Apart from the fact it should be written, as Jennifer has pointed out, an octave higher for a bass player to read (ie sounding an octave lower), the very first note (and of each repeat of this phrase) should be a D. And when it modulates to Eb minor, again the first note of the phrase is Eb (not F).

Of course there is nothing wrong with varying your own version away from the original (I do it all the time on this tune), but I think it helps to get it right to start with.


The Major

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='879921' date='Jun 28 2010, 02:47 PM']This is gonna sound very pedantic ! BUT

This hand written copy has several mistakes (assuming you want to get somewhere close to the original).

Apart from the fact it should be written, as Jennifer has pointed out, an octave higher for a bass player to read (ie sounding an octave lower), the very first note (and of each repeat of this phrase) should be a D. And when it modulates to Eb minor, again the first note of the phrase is Eb (not F).

Of course there is nothing wrong with varying your own version away from the original (I do it all the time on this tune), but I think it helps to get it right to start with.


The Major[/quote]

This is written an octave higher than it is played by most of us, Pete. I have always played it exactly as it is written here and the first note of the riff played this way is the lowest E on the bass. The main riff ends on the D that is the key centre of the first 16 bars (E A B C D E C D - 'soooo what'). I have a video of PC playing this - I will check it out when I get a chance but I recall he does play it higher up the neck that I do (I guess he wins that argument). I also agree that the first note of the riff in the middle 8 in Eb is F not Eb. I guess I could be wrong but, if I am, its a 28 year mistake that has never been corrected by anyone!

NB - the recording of the original So What was recorded on two tape recorders simultaneously. One of them was set incorrectly. Noone noticed and the 'wrong' version went out on the original release of the recording sounding out of tune (a quarter tone too sharp).