Playing So What...

[Doddy]

I'm pretty sure that the first note is a D.....Well, every chart I've ever seen has a D written anyway.
Also,from watching the 'Kind of Blue' 50th Anniversary DVD,it appears that Paul Chambers is playing
the open D string before playing the rest of the phrase by climbing up the G string,rather than playing
it in position like most players seem to.

[Bilbo]

Derren - sorry if my humour was thought to be undermining. It is a long standing tradition here that, if anyone mentions Moondance, I have to intervene disparagingly - its my job

Whilst I can see the arguments for the 'crossover' appeal of Moondance, like Fever, Watermelon Man, Mercy, Mercy, Mercy and several other 'evergreens that aren't', it gets requested almost every time you play a gig. These tunes are almost universally crucified at gigs and their shortcomings as compositions quickly become apparent - they are heard often because they are easy to replicate, not because they are any good. As a staunch advocate for the beautiful music that is jazz, I believe it is the responsible thing to do to draw attention to the fact that stuff like Moondance is pseudo jazz and only that. I will not advocate for mediocrity in place of quality. Moondance is objectively (and subjectvley) poorly written, poorly played and a pale imitation of all that is good about jazz. If people like it, so be it, but people like X Factor, Eastenders and daytime TV - doesn't make it any good. Its appeal is based on ignorance and ignorance should be challenged - not because we are snobs but because our 30 years of experience give us a greater pool of knowledge on which to draw. If that makes me a snob, then every teacher in the world who seeks to enlighten their students is a snob.

Our approach is mischievious but the message is the same. This is low grade stuff - there are richer pickings out there.

[derrenleepoole]

One could argue though that a song like Moondance could be played beautifully I guess - but some may argue you can't polish a turd right And yes, they do get requested all the time. I've been in a function band setting myself on many occasions and it's disparaging to play the same old boring stuff again and again and it does get very frustrating... and it's easy to feel put out by peoples lack of understanding over such matters. But that was some time ago now, and my views have mellowed some what. I'm a hobbyist bass player now and can perhaps enjoy these type of songs more for what they are and not what they could have been, as it's not as crucial for me to play them anymore. I suppose it also comes down to expectations in music too. As I'm now simply playing for pleasure and no longer worry about the hard graft of study and theory, I can just enjoy playing more - I don't feel I have anything to prove.

[moonbass]

I've just been playing along with the remastered version of A Kind of Blue, and the head it definitely starts on a D (although granted difficult to play this an octave down!)
As someone who struggles still to get my head around the practicalities of modal jazz just thought I'd suggest something to the OP, if trying to wing it for a gig in a few days. If you've got access to a piano you can get your head around the sound of D Dorian scale by simply playing only the white notes of the keyboard (ie: no sharps or flats). As you are forced to avoid the black notes you can practice riffs and then translate them to the bass without your fingers automatically reverting to the blues scale or minor scale etc. (Although I have to say for me one of the sexiest bits of Miles' solo is when he breaks out and plays an Ab! I think the suspense of staying in Dorian makes playing the odd flat Vth quite dramatic... but perhaps I need to get out more...)

[GonzoBass]

Marcus Miller does a quite funky version of "So What"
(including the 'feel' intro)
that is worth checking out also.

There are a few videos on YouTube if you do a search...

As mentioned before,
I've found it's the A,A,B,A form that throws most at first.

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='880016' date='Jun 28 2010, 04:22 PM']This is written an octave higher than it is played by most of us, Pete. I have always played it exactly as it is written here and the first note of the riff played this way is the lowest E on the bass. The main riff ends on the D that is the key centre of the first 16 bars (E A B C D E C D - 'soooo what'). I have a video of PC playing this - I will check it out when I get a chance but I recall he does play it higher up the neck that I do (I guess he wins that argument). I also agree that the first note of the riff in the middle 8 in Eb is F not Eb. I guess I could be wrong but, if I am, its a 28 year mistake that has never been corrected by anyone!

NB - the recording of the original So What was recorded on two tape recorders simultaneously. One of them was set incorrectly. Noone noticed and the 'wrong' version went out on the original release of the recording sounding out of tune (a quarter tone too sharp).[/quote]
Rob - just to clarify:
The first note of the tune (as played by Paul Chambers) is D - as in your open D string.

A word to the OP on the modal thing: (my old hobbyhorse):
Just don't get too hung up about playing only notes from the Dorian scale. Yes these notes can form the basic framework for your improv, but all other notes can be used (with care of course). If you just stick to one scale - god how boring that will be ! The art of improv is to know how and when to use every note effectively. Once you have pootled about a few times using just the dorian scale, try to stretch out and find how each note (there are 12 in each octave) can have a place in your solo.
The same goes for the walking line that you will play behind other soloists.
While Dm7 is just 4 notes - DFAC - again it would be very tedious to listen to if you only walk with these notes.

The Major

[Bilbo]

I have to defer to your obvious knowledge but, by my reckoning, if the first note is D, the tune is in Cm, not Dm.

I'm off to check!!

[derrenleepoole]

There is a full transcription of the PC bassline of So What in the February 2009 edition of Bass Player. The first note is shown as D. Hope that helps?

[derrenleepoole]

I wanted to say thanks to this thread, because for the first time in I don't know how long, I've actually sat down and done some practice and learnt how the bassline actually goes.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='faceman' post='878550' date='Jun 27 2010, 12:50 AM']Right guys...I've got a gig next week where I'm doing a jazz set, an excellent first for me. Besides slapping some flatwounds on my 4003, I've been practising like hell. We are doing Watermelon Man, Moondance, Autumn Leaves and a few others to be decided. The quartet have also we are doing So What, which is posing a challenge. I asked the pianist about what to play but he said he couldn't explain it as his theory of jazz isn't good enough. I've followed a transcription of [url="http://www.bassmasta.net/d/davis,_miles/102723.html"]http://www.bassmasta.net/d/davis,_miles/102723.html[/url] for the main riff, which seems to be fine for the introduction and free form section. He said I [b]could not [/b]do anything on a blues scale as it would just sound wrong.

So can someone with a knowledge a theory, modes and modal jazz give me a brief explanation of how I can play this and improvise where needed...I'm not looking for anything amazing, just how I can do the introduction and some walking in the right places. I've got a bit of an idea about modes but not enough

Thanks [/quote]

You're being thrown into the deep end a little by the sounds of things.

The walking section in So What is fairly simple [i]once you know what you're doing[/i]. I found it quite difficult to improvise a walking line because of the static nature of the chords. The best way to deal with it is to have a look at what Paul Chambers did in the original.

Here's a PDF transcription of the first two choruses:

[url="http://www.jazzeducationdatabase.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=91:paul-chambers-so-what-bassline&catid=29:bass&Itemid=54"]http://www.jazzeducationdatabase.com/index...s&Itemid=54[/url]

Note how he usually starts the bar with a chord tone (mostly the 1st and 5th) and keeps the forward movement between the bars going by using a mixture of chromatic, dominant and scalar approach notes to get to these chord tones.

Chromatic is when the note is a half step from the chord tone you're approaching, e.g. Bb to A
Dominant is a fifth above or a fourth below the chord tone, e.g. A to D
Scalar is a note away from the chord tone in the relevant mode/scale. Here, we're talking D and Eb dorian

[XB26354]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='880214' date='Jun 28 2010, 07:35 PM']I have to defer to your obvious knowledge but, by my reckoning, if the first note is D, the tune is in Cm, not Dm.

I'm off to check!! [/quote]

Huh? The first note is open D, then up A,B,C,D,E, down to C and up to octave D - this is clearly D Dorian, missing only the minor 3rd and perfect 4th.
I've just had a quick listen to the original and PC most definitely plays it an octave higher than was written on that lead sheet.

Going back to the form - any drummer and pianist worth their salt will queue the start of each time round the form with something significant, and a lesser emphasis every 8 bars, especially for less sure players. Makes life much easier.

[GonzoBass]

Yes!
I tend to say "change" beforehand.
Helps keep everyone on track...

[lowdown]

Starting note for the phrase is definitely D [Eb],open D on the original.
and played up the 8ve.
The confussion came about from the early fake books that were around years ago,
when it was written with starting note E [F] for some reason and written down the octave.
But then over the years amended.

Someone above has said C minor starting chord,
It is D minor7 [D Dorian] for sure.

I have never understood when depping in function bands, when someone requests a Jazz Tooone,
The Band leader always shouts out Goondance.....
Good grief out of all the Tunes about why that?
It clears out the dance floor and leaves 2 or 3 pi##ed up punters doing the Monty Python
Ministry of funny walks.
If they dont know any standards they could always use 'I will survive' and use the tune from
'Fly me to the Moon[dance]' ...well the first 8 bars anyway.



Garry

Edited June 30, 2010 by lowdown

[dlloyd]

[quote name='XB26354' post='881381' date='Jun 29 2010, 09:26 PM']I've just had a quick listen to the original and PC most definitely plays it an octave higher than was written on that lead sheet.[/quote]

It's probably been transcribed by a pianist who's transcribed it as it sounds (apart from the 'E' error), ignoring the fact that bass is a transposing instrument.

[lowdown]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='879615' date='Jun 28 2010, 10:07 AM']As for So What, listen to the original 60 times in a row (I am deadly serious) The sound will become natural to you after a while when you have done that play through the changes slowly without really (at first) trying to stick necessarily to time or form, just investigate the sound on different parts of your bass. Then listen again... rinse and repeat slowly learning the parameters of the form and time, do that until you sound so solid on those chords that if you were hit with a hammer you wouldn't drop a beat.[/quote]


This is such a good point Jake, same for learning any standard [ or any tune for that matter]
Always good to do a Jazz gig without the fake book as a cruch [ apart from the odd tune you dont know]
It free's up the brain.Nothing worse than trying to do a solo with your head buried in a book [ for me anyway]
Reading big band charts, yep for sure - but thats another topic.


Garry

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='lowdown' post='881700' date='Jun 30 2010, 10:41 AM']This is such a good point Jake, same for learning any standard [ or any tune for that matter]
Always good to do a Jazz gig without the fake book as a cruch [ apart from the odd tune you dont know]
It free's up the brain.Nothing worse than trying to do a solo with your head buried in a book [ for me anyway]
Reading big band charts, yep for sure - but thats another topic.


Garry[/quote]
Aye Garry, there's nothing quite like knowing a tune properly.
I have heard of some pretty heavyweight players who when they go out on the road will concentrate on a set of a dozen or so tunes and do them the whole tour, so that what they play is known inside out...
Cheers
Jake

[Bilbo]

Kudos to you (and others), Peter.

I got a chance to check the recordings (why am I unable to take other people's word for it? ) and have to agree that it is a D not an E. I suspect the 'that's how it was in the fake books' explanation is the most likely.

The good thing is that I can now play it on the double bass much more easily than I could an octave down! Now can someone convince me that All Blues is in A :lo:?

[devinebass]

Hi guys, i've recently (in the last four days!) put up a new video lessons website and today i've uploaded some tutorials about soloing on static/modal minor grooves. All of the techniques i'm talking about can be directly applied to tunes like 'So'What' so i'm guessing it'll be quite interesting for ya.

Check them out at [url="http://www.scottsbasslessons.com/video-tutorials/tutorial-4-soloing-static-minor-chords/"]http://www.scottsbasslessons.com/video-tut...c-minor-chords/[/url]

Take it easy.

S.