I need to be louder!

[4-string-thing]

Ok, I have 2 rigs plus a few bits and pieces, one is my vintage Acoustic Control Corporation stuff and the other is my smaller Ashdown Mag 300 head with a couple of 15" cabs (cheap nasty 600w PA bass bins)

My problem is, I had a gig in a marquee last night with my new band, and I was struggling to be heard. I decided to use the Ashdown rig, as I'd never used it before. The band has 2 loud guitarists (mesa 100w combo and a Blackstar 200w head/4x12) and a pretty loud drummer. Luckily, I was able to use the Ashdowns line out to the PA and give myself a bit more oomph, but Ideally I wouldn't want to do this.

I've never had a problem with my Acoustic stuff, despite only being 125w (4ohms) or 175w (2ohms) so I'm guessing its a combination of things.

1: Ashdown is not as loud as 300w suggests.
2: Cheap speakers are not very efficient.
3: Guitarists with large valve amps need to be educated! (Same applies to drummer)
4: It was because it was an open-sided marquee, and in an indoor gig situation things would be different.

Right, so my question is this: What would you good folks suggest I do to get more volume? More powerful amp, with the same speakers? Same amp with better speakers? Go back to the Acoustic rig and get a roadie to lug it about? Or just ask the guitarists to turn down and the drummer to not hit things quite so hard?

Any thoughts appreciated

Mark.

[Mr. Foxen]

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=92604"]See here.[/url]

[theosd]

Was it commented on that you were too quiet? You might find that the speakers project the bass beyond you (especially if they're on the floor) and so will sound quiet on stage but being loud enough out the front. I have this issue with my Markbass combo, it projects really well, just have to learn not to overdo it and get too loud!

[Colledge]

i too found the mag series amps to seem underpowered (i used the mag600), that could be the problem. but at the same time ive seen people using them with great results. Usually pa subs don't have a very broad freq range and you could be missing all of those mids that bring your bass through the mix nicely.

[Stewart]

Being loud outdoors (no reflective surfaces) particularly on bass requires *lots* more power than playing indoors.

Your two rigs will be fighting each other at certain frequencies, reinforcing each other at others which isn't going to help.

If your PA isn't up to handling kick drum and bass at high levels then I'd advise
Either:

Getting a much larger (and better-balanced) single rig

Or:
(Probably better in terms of not deafening yourself and your bandmates)
Use either (but not both) existing rig and
Add a subwoofer system to the PA (and a decent monitor if your rig isn't adequate).

Getting everyone else to turn down is an ideal option (but loud bands tend to play loud ...)

[4-string-thing]

Ah, I should mention that I only used the Ashdown rig, not the Acoustic stuff, as the point is I am trying to downsize a bit (so, Mr Foxen, your doom rig is not the answer) The PA speakers were up to the job, but as the guitarists and drums didn't need it, neither should I! I was loud enough when onstage in front of my rig, but when I went out front with my wireless kit, I could hear the bass, but not as much as I wanted!

[cycrowave]

just get really hammered on rider booze, turn the guitarists bass eq up and mime. collect your cheque, and form your own jazz fusion group where you take hour long solos

[discreet]

[quote name='4-string-thing' post='879280' date='Jun 27 2010, 10:02 PM']1: Ashdown is not as loud as 300w suggests.
2: Cheap speakers are not very efficient.
3: Guitarists with large valve amps need to be educated! (Same applies to drummer)
4: It was because it was an open-sided marquee, and in an indoor gig situation things would be different.[/quote]

I think (2), (3) and (4). But mainly (2), because there's not a lot you can do about (3) and (4)!!

[lojo]

[quote name='4-string-thing' post='879280' date='Jun 27 2010, 10:02 PM']1: Ashdown is not as loud as 300w suggests.

3: Guitarists with large valve amps need to be educated! (Same applies to drummer)[/quote]


1. I brought an ashdown mag 300w, thought it would be OK for what I do, I was very wrong, owned MB or TC heads since, both great

3. If you can figure out how to educate those kind of guitarists to blend into the band, then you should be employed in government social problem solving

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='4-string-thing' post='879325' date='Jun 27 2010, 10:44 PM']Ah, I should mention that I only used the Ashdown rig, not the Acoustic stuff, as the point is I am trying to downsize a bit (so, Mr Foxen, your doom rig is not the answer) The PA speakers were up to the job, but as the guitarists and drums didn't need it, neither should I! I was loud enough when onstage in front of my rig, but when I went out front with my wireless kit, I could hear the bass, but not as much as I wanted![/quote]

Are these cabs 8 ohms? That would give you the full 300watts from the MAG head.

IME this isnt always enough. my bands only have one guitarist (to speak of) each and they use combos but even a 40watt Fender combo can blast my MAG300 C-115 out of existence at a outdoor or marquee gig.
I now use 500watt rigs but i always have to turn up quite a bit for Marques and outdoor gigs. I guess without any walls to bounce the low freqs off you have to push your rig harder.
And that can sometimes mean in to distortion which isnt nice.

Edited June 30, 2010 by dave_bass5

[Adrenochrome]

Get more sensitive speakers. 600 watts is plenty of horsepower.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='Adrenochrome' post='881863' date='Jun 30 2010, 01:03 PM']Get more sensitive speakers. 600 watts is plenty of horsepower.[/quote]

Well the amp is only putting out 300watts total (assuming they are 8 ohms) it might not really be the speakers, although i agree, the more sensitive the better.

I also suggest boosting the mids more, but certainly not cutting them.

[4 Strings]

If something can't be heard, my mantra for mixing is to listen to everything else to see why before making anything louder.

Any 300W bass amp that's been honestly rated should be loud enough for all but big festivals it is likely the problem is elsewhere. I have a 350W rig and I can't go anywhere near it at much above half volume.

Guitar valve amps are deafening from 30W upwards. With 4x12s being used, are they simply too loud or even just too bassy to allow your bass to cut through, ie you competing for the same frequencies as someone else? Is your own sound muddy and indistinct (PA bass bins are not designed to give distinction, just low down whoomph, the distinction stuff comes with the other speakers in a PA)? Is it 'clanky' and similar to the guitar frequencies?

I would try amp different settings (if you use them), experiment with a different guitar if you can, swap the bass amps so you use the Ashdown with the Acoustic cabs. Meanwhile, setting about the long term task of getting the guitarists to turn down a bit.

(My hunch is that its the bass bins you're using, either really inefficient in terms of sound/W or in terms of reproducing the sounds you expect/want to hear where you are standing, try different cabs.)

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='4 Strings' post='881911' date='Jun 30 2010, 01:38 PM']If something can't be heard, my mantra for mixing is to listen to everything else to see why before making anything louder.

Any 300W bass amp that's been honestly rated should be loud enough for all but big festivals it is likely the problem is elsewhere. I have a 350W rig and I can't go anywhere near it at much above half volume.[/quote]

You obviously know your stuff but i want to add to the above.

we have done a few weddings in Marquees this summer and i have had to turn up quite loud. This is just me playing at soundcheck, no PA support and no one else playing.
Standing on the other side of the dance floor i was very quiet at my normal 1/4 to 2/3 on the master. I know the position of the master is no indication of how loud i am but i generally dont need to touch it for indoor gigs. I have had to go to about 2 o'clock for these gigs as the stage (hollow platform) and lack of walls have made it difficult to get the low end out across the dance floor. My rig is a 500watt, quite pokey (ie, lots of mids) so that helps but i doubt i could have used my MAG combo.

Edited June 30, 2010 by dave_bass5

[chris_b]

On an outdoors gig you aren't hearing any sound reflections so you'll sound much quieter than you expect. You might need to turn up but you definitely will need to add more punch in the way of low mids and mids.

"I've never had a problem with my Acoustic stuff, despite only being 125w (4ohms) or 175w (2ohms)": This is a very small rig for an outdoors gig.
"Ashdown is not as loud as 300w suggests": I think you are right.
"Cheap speakers are not very efficient": You are right.
"Guitarists with large valve amps need to be educated": Get your rig right first.
"It was because it was an open-sided marquee, and in an indoor gig situation things would be different": You are right.

My thoughts would be to get a quality 500 watt amp and a good 410 or 210. You will then be right for all types of gig.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='chris_b' post='881935' date='Jun 30 2010, 01:55 PM']On an outdoors gig you aren't hearing any sound reflections so you'll sound much quieter than you expect. You might need to turn up but you definitely will need to add more punch in the way of low mids and mids.

"I've never had a problem with my Acoustic stuff, despite only being 125w (4ohms) or 175w (2ohms)": This is a very small rig for an outdoors gig.
"Ashdown is not as loud as 300w suggests": I think you are right.
"Cheap speakers are not very efficient": You are right.
"Guitarists with large valve amps need to be educated": Get your rig right first.
"It was because it was an open-sided marquee, and in an indoor gig situation things would be different": You are right.

My thoughts would be to get a quality 500 watt amp and a good 410 or 210. You will then be right for all types of gig.[/quote]


Could try just adding the 210 to the bass bins (its all money in the end!) as a start.

[geoffbyrne]

I have a UK-built MAG400 (Redface - 485W@4 Ohms) into 2x15 cabs. I'm assuming it's the same tone stack.

I have found that the MAG set 'flat' (all tone knobs at 12 o'clock) doesn't carry much punch at all.

I leave the bass at 12 o'clock, low Mids at 3, Mids at 3 o'clock, Hi mids at 9 o'clock (as is my wont) & treble at 3 o'clock. Run like this I have plenty of power & rarely need to go past 12 on the master volume.

If I go back to flat, it all goes quiet...........

Anyone else find this?

Edited July 1, 2010 by geoffbyrne

[Adrenochrome]

[quote name='geoffbyrne' post='882570' date='Jun 30 2010, 11:12 PM']I have a UK-built MAG400 (Redface - 485W@4 Ohms) into 2x15 cabs. I'm assuming it's the same tone stack.

I have found that the MAG set 'flat' (all tone knobs at 12 o'clock) doesn't carry much punch at all.

I leave the bass at 12, low Mids at 3, Mids at 3, Hi mids at 9 (as is my wont) & treble at 3. Run like this I have plenty of power & rarely need to go past 12 on the master volume.

If I go back to flat, it all goes quiet...........

Anyone else find this?[/quote]

Almost - I often don't need any EQ but if it's a bit boomy or wooly onstage I often cut some bass and boost the upper and lower mids. It seems to add a bit of clarity.

[dave_bass5]

Yep, same here. Mostly play with the mids, thats where it seems to make the biggest difference between only sounding good on stage and being loud enough out front

[4 Strings]

EQ for clarity is, I suppose, the subject of another thread and I'm sure it would run and run. However, a lot of amps add from 0. ie, turn all the tone control (or graphic sliders) to zero and the amp goes silent. Knocking too much of anything off will not just sound quieter, it will be quieter. Some create their happy smile by just dropping the mids, their amp will be quieter than flat. Might need to up the Master at that point.

(I realise when you say '3', you mean 3 O'Clock which is a hefty boost!)

Of course the only real answer to be loud and punch through is to plug in a Stingray!

Edited July 1, 2010 by 4 Strings

[geoffbyrne]

[quote name='4 Strings' post='882706' date='Jul 1 2010, 08:53 AM'](I realise when you say '3', you mean 3 O'Clock which is a hefty boost!)[/quote]

Agreed, but this is what I've found works in practice.

G.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='4 Strings' post='882706' date='Jul 1 2010, 08:53 AM'](I realise when you say '3', you mean 3 O'Clock which is a hefty boost!)[/quote]

It is but IIR 12 is flat so its not like its gone 3/4 of the way around the dial.

[4-string-thing]

Thanks for the comments chaps, keep 'em coming!

The cabs I used were 8ohms each, so I was getting the full 300w, but I suspect the cheap speakers and small cabs are just not very efficient. This combined with 2 loud guitarists, a powerful drummer and no reflected sounds, meant that out front, I was just a little too quiet. To be honest, I could probably have got away with it, and a little feed to the PA did the trick. To be fair, I only bought the Ashdown as a back-up and used the cabs because they are small and easy to transport.

I guess the best (cost free) solution would be to try the Ashdown into my Acoustic 2x15 and see if it's any better. I also have a 200w stereo power amp, and might consider using this in the future combined with the Acoustic 220 pre-amp and both my Acoustic cabs.

I suppose, with outdoor gigs, you need big gear! As Carroll Shelby once said "There's no substitute for cubic inches"

[4-string-thing]

There could be a solution at hand, a guy a few miles away is selling his Ashdown Mag rig... a 15" cab, a 2x10 cab and a 600 evo11 head. He's selling them seperately so I'm guessing either the cabs or the head would probably help?

My question now is, which? (buying both cabs and the head is not an option) Are the Mag cabs very efficient and well suited to the head? or should I buy the head and use it with my speakers (rated 600w, 4ohms)

Or does anyone know of any other cheap, efficient s/h cabs going anywhere?

[dave_bass5]

If your cabs are 4 ohms then you can only use one cab connected to a MAG head. Dont connect both to the MAG.