Best place to study jazz bass in the UK?

[dexter3d]

Hello,

I am thinking to study electric bass more in depth for the next year, or probably for 2 years.
As I don't want (and I'm not able) to start a 4-year BA degree in conservatory (I already have quite some degrees in other fields),
the various 'higher education' programmes seem attractive. I am thinking about any place in Europe (I'm Lithuanian myself).
How about the Leeds College of Music Jazz diploma programme? Or LCCM (http://www.lccm.org.uk/)? Has anybody studied there?
How are such places as Academy of Contemporary Music [url="http://www.acm.ac.uk/"]http://www.acm.ac.uk/[/url], Institute of Contemporary Music Performance (http://www.icmp.uk.com/)
considered in UK?
I am also considering DJAM school in Amsterdam (www.djam.nl/).
I am interested mostly in jazz improvisation, I would like to study it seriously. Maybe there's something else to consider?

Thanks for comments!

[Mikey D]

[quote name='dexter3d' post='97400' date='Dec 1 2007, 08:48 PM']Hello,

I am thinking to study electric bass more in depth for the next year, or probably for 2 years.
As I don't want (and I'm not able) to start a 4-year BA degree in conservatory (I already have quite some degrees in other fields),
the various 'higher education' programmes seem attractive. I am thinking about any place in Europe (I'm Lithuanian myself).
How about the Leeds College of Music Jazz diploma programme? Or LCCM (http://www.lccm.org.uk/)? Has anybody studied there?
How are such places as Academy of Contemporary Music [url="http://www.acm.ac.uk/"]<a href="http://www.acm.ac.uk/" target="_blank">http://www.acm.ac.uk/[/url]</a>, Institute of Contemporary Music Performance (http://www.icmp.uk.com/)
considered in UK?
I am also considering DJAM school in Amsterdam (www.djam.nl/).
I am interested mostly in jazz improvisation, I would like to study it seriously. Maybe there's something else to consider?

Thanks for comments![/quote]

I study on the Jazz BMus Hons at Birmingham conservatoire and my opinion on the course has been put on this site a few times. Bear in mind, wherever you study jazz electric bass, prepare yourself for the guaranteed snobbery towards the bass as not being an upright, but you will most definately find some people who don't care if it is electric or upright.

You say you already have a degree so you can try any of the places that offer a diploma, Birmingham and Leeds do. If you come to birmingham you will study with Fred Thelonious Baker and Mark Hodgson on electric, you get 40 1-2-1s a year, as well as other lessons, which will include musicianship with Mike Williams (quite possibly the most talented musician I have come across and what he doesn't know about jazz and improvisation is minimal). Look on google for birmingham conservatoire and you will have all the info you need. Other than that, there is a very talented community of young jazz musicians and there are normally about 10 or so people on the diploma course at one time.

I'm not saying here is the best as I have no experience with the other colleges etc, but as an electric bassist I encountered a lot of issues towards the instrument from others, but you have to just do what you want to do and hopefully when you find your voice it wll all pay off.. AJ5string on here also went to birmingham and can give his opinion.

Leeds has Zoltan Dekany who I have heard many great things about and he was the dep of choice for Jeff Berlin when he was out in the US, so he can't be too bad!

Where are you based at the moment? Are you taking jazz improvisation lessons already? I can send you a few things that we work on here to give you an idea of what to expect. If you are really serious about studying seriously, you could even consider taking just one to one lessons with a good teacher and playing as much as you can, it depends if the diploma itself will mean much to you or not.

I also met a portugese bassist in Ireland last summer who went to Amsterdam, and if his playing was anything to go by, the standard must be pretty good, but he did also have lessons with Gary Willis so who knows!

I'm not sure if they do anything equivalent to a diploma etc, but Gary Willis actually teaches at a conservatoire in spain, might be worth checking out!

Edited December 1, 2007 by Mikey D

[dexter3d]

Thanks for the answer! I think Birmingham is really worth considering!
Currently I study in the Netherlands the discipline which is very far from jazz, and I cannot
devote much time to music. However, my studies end next year, and the more I think
the more I want to study jazz. I already have a brilliant jazz bass teacher in Lithuania.
The reason I want to engage in thorough studies is that it is very hard to study everything
by yourself, including harmony etc. Especially when you do something else besides it.

Concerning Birmingham - is there a realistic possibility to get a scholarship or covering of tuition fee?

[OutToPlayJazz]

I'd recommend the Birmingham Conservatoire as well, if only because Fred Baker is there. I had some lessons with him way back in the 80's and as long as you use him as a resource, you'll learn a lot.

I've had pupils do the degree course at the Leeds College & Brighton and they seem to have come through very well, too.

If anyone wants jazz lessons, either upright or electric, drop me a line

[The Burpster]

You may get more tips in the Theory and technique section so I'll put you in there and see how you get on!

[ARGH]

Go to Leeds,the guys/tutors from Germany and Norway have removed the "its not an upright" snobbishness,and embraced the 'free' jazz styles,plus they are opening up to performances that are REALLY cuttingedge.

If you play Bass they love you there...play more than 4 strings and you have a red carpet.

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='97455' date='Dec 1 2007, 11:08 PM']Unless you're already independently wealthy, forget studying jazz in the UK. If you are independently wealthy, go to the US to study it.[/quote]

That is true. It is also true you hobnob better in jazz in the US, particularly in the jazz school scene. Outside of London and small pockets in other major cities, the general perception of jazz is geriatric dixieland. It is not a health pulsating thriving scene in the UK. Dick Grove, Berklee etc.....check them out. For £12000, you'd probably spend USD$12000 in the US.

But if you are EU, you'd pay EU fees, which in all probability will cost you less than making the trip across the pond; at the cost o the social benefits of jazz schooling/ deriving lineage "student of the famous XXXXX"/hob nobbing in the US.

Edited December 2, 2007 by synaesthesia

[stingrayfan]

[quote name='dexter3d' post='97400' date='Dec 1 2007, 08:48 PM']I don't want (and I'm not able) to start a 4-year BA degree in conservatory[/quote]
If you do though, could you give me a shout? We're thinking of getting one of those Victorian ones done next year.

Sorry, couldn't resist. I'll get my coat (and wicker furniture).

Edited December 2, 2007 by stingrayfan

[dexter3d]

[quote name='ARGH' post='97520' date='Dec 2 2007, 11:23 AM']Go to Leeds,the guys/tutors from Germany and Norway have removed the "its not an upright" snobbishness,and embraced the 'free' jazz styles,plus they are opening up to performances that are REALLY cuttingedge.

If you play Bass they love you there...play more than 4 strings and you have a red carpet.[/quote]

I play 5 string fretted, so I guess I would fit in there But I am not sure how tough the entrance criteria are.
It is Diploma programme though, so I think they shouldn't expect too much from me.
I finished trumpet 5 year secondary education in Lithuania (second instrument piano), played in orchestra.
I switched to bass 4 years ago and it became my true love. My teacher is well known and respected
bass player and composer in the region.
I can read music in bass cleff (but a bit slowly), I can play scales/modes/intervals/triads in all keys fluently.
I would probably play Jamerson's 'for once in my life' bassline and Wooten's 'You can't hold no groove' (slap)
for the audition.
Having in mind all this, do I have a realistic probability to be admitted? What do they expect for this kind of programme?

[Mikey D]

[quote name='ARGH' post='97520' date='Dec 2 2007, 10:23 AM']Go to Leeds,the guys/tutors from Germany and Norway have removed the "its not an upright" snobbishness,and embraced the 'free' jazz styles,plus they are opening up to performances that are REALLY cuttingedge.

If you play Bass they love you there...play more than 4 strings and you have a red carpet.[/quote]

I wonder if it is time for me to change!?

[ARGH]

From what I have seen,heard and learnt.... from past and present students and lecturers its a better place than a few years ago.

Only thing I will say regarding all the education music schools and all the bumpf that comes through the mags and letterboxes saying what they do and where they do it.

DONT look at whos coming through the door to visit,LOOK at whats leaving ...





think about it....

[Mikey D]

[quote name='ARGH' post='97773' date='Dec 2 2007, 08:39 PM']From what I have seen,heard and learnt.... from past and present students and lecturers its a better place than a few years ago.[/quote]

I would have to say that this applies to Birmingham aswell, maybe, the whole of the UK jazz education system is getting better!? But each year the standard seems to be getting higher overall. I think this has been helped by having an easier application process via Cukas on the web, thus more people are applying and of course, with the chance of the auditions panel seeing a lot more potential students they have more of a "higher standard" to chose from.


I'm definately going to have to pop over to leeds sometime just to check out whats going on, I was wanting to organise a lesson with Zoltan in the new year anyway.

[Adam.M]

I live next to a Bass teacher at Leeds College of Music, he seems like a really sorted guy.

It's inspiring having him here, I'm seriously considering doing a degree in Jazz there.

[Pugz]

The Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama in Cardiff is supposed to be excellent. They do jazz and classical courses there. I myself am looking into doing a course there.

[Bilbo]

I love the idea of going to college to study jazz on electric bass. I would have loved to do it twenty years ago and I would love to do it now. All that playing, practising and studying all day every day. Brilliant!

Only I can't help but notice that some of the people I have taught/played with who have gone on to do this (Royal College/Leeds etc) are now gigging on the same scenes as me, playing the same venues for the same money and doing no more gigs than I am.

Not sure what the point of it all was? Not sure what point I am making. Not sure whether this thing half way up my arm is my a**e or my elbow.

[Mikey D]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='97991' date='Dec 3 2007, 10:50 AM']I love the idea of going to college to study jazz on electric bass. I would have loved to do it twenty years ago and I would love to do it now. All that playing, practising and studying all day every day. Brilliant!

Only I can't help but notice that some of the people I have taught/played with who have gone on to do this (Royal College/Leeds etc) are now gigging on the same scenes as me, playing the same venues for the same money and doing no more gigs than I am.

Not sure what the point of it all was? Not sure what point I am making. Not sure whether this thing half way up my arm is my a**e or my elbow.[/quote]

Your point cound be that, why go to a conservatoire when you can probably practice and play with a full time job and still be as good, and as you say do the same gigs. Which I tend to agree with, even though I am studying. I think a lot of students don't take full advantage of things when they are studying, because there is no reason why you can't be the biggest muthaf***a on your instrument, as you have the time to dedicate to it, the resources there every day and also a dedicated student body to play with, who if upon leaving go into the field will be your peers and call you for gigs.

But more important than getting "good", I don't believe enough emphasis is put on learning how to market yourself or just generally the business side of making a living in music. Which with the jazz market as it is today, it's probably as important as being a good player. I've seen shocking jazz players make a decent living out of playing, because they know how to get gigs etc.

It has been quite apparant that most jazz musicians, no matter how talented, don't have the knowledge of the industry, or the entrepeunerial skills when they leave college to make their own gigs, or get the higher paid gigs. Then it also comes down to the point of whether they are creating anything valid on their own which may get them picked up as an "artist" in their own right. There are not many I can think of that have left a jazz course who have gone on to much greater things in standard terms...Gwilym Simcock, the empirical guys from london (although they are still on a course) and of course polar bear/acoustic ladyland.

Also it comes down to the fact that there probably aren't that many bigger gigs and they tend to get snapped up by the same people over and over again. This tends to be the case in most styles of music, whether it be pop or hiphop or jazz.

Personally, when I leave I want to be f**king great on electric and do a pretty good job on upright, but I am fully aware already that no matter how good you are, it just isn't enough nowadays. It's to do with making contacts, getting out there and playing on the scene and getting noticed. Making your own CDs. Recording other people or producing cds for them. Putting on your own gigs. Anything...and thats if you want to actually do that.

You might be happy having no audience, no fans and just create music for yourself in your room. As don't forget, music is art, not just the product/commodity that most people see it as nowadays.

[Bilbo]

I agree with most of what you say, Mikey, but do bleieve that the colleges and universities are selling a lie in that they take money off people (including the State) to provide courses that produce a vastly greater number of practitioners than the market can sustain. Theses seats of learning are increasingly becoming businesses, no more and no less, and have a product to sell. I don't think they are any less capable of tapping into people's dreams and exploitating them than diet groups, plastic surgeons or TV 'talent' shows.

I heard somewhere that a couple of years ago, universities and colleges trained 2,000 occupational therapists but the NHS only employed 2. There are 1,000s of musicians, engineers and whatever in college now who will probably never some close to a career in music, anymore than the 100s or archaeologists or fine artists that qualify each year will end up as practitioners in their chosen field. And they will have £10K of student debts for their trouble. I wish it worked differently but I do think that a lot of people could go a long way studying independently.

I reckon moving to a big city and building relationships with existing players is probably as useful an activity as anything. Just practice, practice, practice and hone your skills so that you are ready for that break when it comes.

I'd still go to college if I could, tho'.

[Mikey D]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='98067' date='Dec 3 2007, 12:47 PM']And they will have £10K of student debts for their trouble. I wish it worked differently but I do think that a lot of people could go a long way studying independently.[/quote]

Make that £24k and you are nearer where I will be at!

Thats a lot of high quality one to one lessons, a fodera matt garrison, epifani rig, a car and money to go see all the best jazz gigs.

[dexter3d]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='97984' date='Dec 3 2007, 11:37 AM']Thinking about it again, Leeds' fees for a full time course are £3070 per year. This is usually paid by the government, but only for people who are undertaking their first degree. I checked into this a couple of years ago for a friend and there are exceptions, but they are only for a handful of subjects including medicine... jazz isn't an exempted subject.

Accommodation will cost you at least £3000 per year. You'll probably have to spend an extra £20 a month on electricity and gas.

Food and socialising is the most variable. You might be able to get away with spending as little as £20 per week... if you like beans and rice.

There are no bursaries or scholarships available to students whose principal instrument is electric bass. There is one for people from low income families, but it is specifically for home students.

You will be asked to demonstrate that you have funding available to support you throughout your stay.

The audition seeks to demonstrate that you're of ABRSM grade 8 standard... that's quite tough for four years playing bass.

Here's their audition guide:[/quote]

Well, I would go for a Jazz Diploma course, its 2 years, ~1000 pounds per year for tuition. I would take a UK govt grant,
as far as I know it is given on very favorable conditions (you only start repaying it when u earn certain amount).

Accordingly, the requirements for audition you mentioned should be significantly lower for the diploma course than for the BA degree,
because it is supposed to be sort of a preparation before that, isn't it? And the good thing about that programme is that you get
access to the same teachers, also you get the same 1 to 1 lessons, as in the Hons degree, so I think I could give me what I need.

[dexter3d]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='98211' date='Dec 3 2007, 04:56 PM']I'm willing to be corrected, but I don't believe you would qualify for any financial assistance on a BTEC. You already have a degree, don't you? The system in the UK is set up to take you to degree level and only that far. You do not get funding for staying at college forever. The positive side is that the BTEC is part-time so you'd be able to hold down a bar job or the like to help with your funding.

BTECs are really aimed at 16 year old school leavers. The standard you're required to be is ABRSM grade 5 on your principal instrument, which is fairly low, and your theory requirement is Grade 3, which is pretty much the level of understanding you'd expect off an 11 year old classical musician. I wouldn't worry about the audition process.

My worry would be that you wouldn't get much from the course work, particularly taking into account the group activities. Mind you, there's always the possibility of sneaking into lectures that are designed for the BA course... unless they take a register.

I also suspect you wouldn't get the same level of individual tuition that you'd get in the BA course. I'm guessing here, but I'd be surprised if it was more than one lesson a week, probably not from the same tutors who teach the BA course.[/quote]

Thanks, your comments are really helpful. It was a typo, I am thinking not about a 'grant', but about a loan given specially to cover tuition fee expenses.
<http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/EducationAndLearning/UniversityAndHigherEducation/StudentFinance/index.htm>
I also plan to work part-time. I would let my own flat in my home country, and for that amount I would be able to rent a room in Leeds.
Plus, I would work full time during summer and save some money for the next year. At least for now I thing that I would be able to sustain myself, having
in mind that I already have BA, MA and soon LLM degrees in politics and law.

I just turned 24 recently, and your comment about the possibly low standards in Diploma programme forced me to think. I just wrote to Leeds inquiring
about the differences between those two programmes in terms of courses, teachers etc. Perhaps I will also try to write to Zoltan Dekany to ask what
he thinks. I will also try to get the contacts of those who already graduated from one or another programme in Leeds.

[dexter3d]

By the way, I want to make clear why I want to study in a music college, especially
when my current jazz bass teacher is of the highest caliber.
I started to attend private bass lessons 2 years ago, but I can probably count them on my 2 hand fingers.
Not because the teacher cannot give me more lessons, but because I simply did not have time to prepare -
legal studies are very demanding, and after studying the whole day it is really hard to do something
else, even to play bass.
Now, if I go back home, I would take a full time responsible job. My time for music would be again very limited.
And what is most important, it is really hard to do everything by yourself, when there is no adequate system of
accountability:) Not less important, in a music college I would be among the musicians, I would do a lot of jamming,
what is really essential for making progress. And I would be able to devote all of my time for music.
I think that makes sense:)

[dexter3d]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='98643' date='Dec 4 2007, 11:23 AM']Your situation sounds broadly analogous with the way I was feeling when I was coming to the end of my third degree. I had sent off for prospectuses for music colleges and everything.

A couple of points that I figured out at the time and immediately following completion of that degree...

[list]
[*]Degrees may look impressive when written on a sheet of paper, but they have a shelf life. Employers see massive red flags when they look at a c.v. that has gaps in it. And any employer that looks for a candidate with an LLM will see two years of music college as a 'gap'.
[*]Banks and other creditors are patient with you while you're a student because you are likely to get a good job at the end of it. This stops when you don't fulfil their expectations. And they can be pretty nasty.
[/list]

If you take a place at a music college, you are denying that place to someone else. It seems likely that your intention is to avoid committing to full time 'sensible' employment for a couple of years while you pursue a hobby. The person you are taking that place away from probably has intentions to pursue music as their career and won't have several legal degrees to fall back on. You might want to think about whether that's entirely fair.

I don't entirely buy the argument that you wouldn't have the time or energy to study music in your spare time while taking a full time job. I've done it, as have many others on this board. My advice to you would be to take a job in a city where there is a good jazz scene (Leeds or London would be great options), take private lessons and find other musicians to jam with.[/quote]

Thank you for the advice. So I guess you didn't go for music studies in college at all? What was your main field of study?
I agree with you on banks, I know that most probably it wouldn't work, but 1000 pounds for a year sounds payable for me
for one year, I think in principle I could cover it myself.
Concerning that 'gap' in the CV, my concrete place of future work is almost determined, and I am pretty sure I would get a place
there whenever I come back. My intention is not to avoid committing to full time 'sensible' employment for a couple of years while
pursuing a hobby. I am afraid that after couple of years I will start torturing myself with questions like what could have been if I did this or that,
thinking that maybe I lost a very good chance when I had a real opportunity to improve.. And maybe it would turn out that the hobby turns
into something professional?
Concerning that fairness remark - I really would not think I am taking the place from someone more worth it or from someone who needs it more. I don't think the places in colleges are very scarce. Furthermore, it is the task of the colleges themselves to assess whether you are worth studying there or not. And that someone does not have additional degrees to fall back on - this is definitely not my problem at all.
According to this logic, I shouldn't have studied for the second postgraduate degree, because maybe there are some people who have only one, and need
it more
Coming back to the essence - I see that you succeeded in managing to study bass while taking a full time job. However, my situation I think is different,
because my job would be tied to the government of my home country, at least initially. That means that I would not live in cities with 'good jazz scenes'. Or, maybe the scene is good, but extremely tight.
The more I get older the more I realize that the time you devote to one thing cannot be devoted to another. If you really want to go for something, you need to throw yourself in there completely. I don't think that I am too old for starting something. Some of my classmates are ~50 years old.
Again, I do not believe I would manage to study music seriously back home, even presuming that my desire would always remain.

[Sibob]

I think regardless of what music school you go to, whether you get a job/audition is down to three things, in this order:
1 - Personality
2 - Networking/connections
3 - Whether you can actually play or not!

Obviously if you can't play a note, you're not going to get hired, but i guarantee that you'll get further then if you can play 64th note walking jazz lines...but you're an asshole!

I didn't go to any Bass music schools (A-level music thats it....on bass), but i'm gigging a lot more then some really awesome players i know, mostly because i think i'm easy to work with, i talk a lot to people, and i'm not a bad player! Certainly not the best quite obviously. I think it's the same with any art based subject, while you're studying the theory and application, others are out doing it and getting the jobs!

I considered enrolling in BassTech a few times, but so many people i know come out of those schools playing/sounding exactly the same, i like where my playing style and sound is going, don't want to stifle that.
Having said that, it is healthy to surround yourself with musicians who are better then you, it aids the learning process, what i try to do with all my projects!!

Si

Edited December 11, 2007 by Sibob

[Bilbo]

1 - Personality
2 - Networking/connections
3 - Whether you can actually play or not!

I would add a fourth - a definitive issue! Geography

Where you are has as much to do with your potential playing opportunities as anything else. A great player in London may not gig because there are greater players but, if he is in Reading, he may do better. I used to play a lot of original jazz in Cardiff but there has been no jazz composers anywhere else that I have lived. I also think that this is more of an issue if you are looking to play with people better than you. Like, how much choice have you got if you want a new trombone player? What if you decide you like Argentine music and want to play with a bandoneon - not much chance if you live in Hereford! I guess you can make your own luck by being ready for a chance to play but you can't always make the chances happen I know that sometimes you could move area but often it is not that simple.

[Lenny B]

I did the Jazz degree at Leeds, graduated in 97. I moved to London, developed tendonitis and ended up going to law school for a year (I majored in performance and having a music degree without being able to play limited job options). I can't say too much about the course now, but at the time it was very much like a YTS scheme - the ethos was 'we will prepare you to be able to earn a living on your instrument, you have to find the opportunities'. I had some great teachers and still practice some of the things they showed me. To be honest though, I learned more from the other musicians on the course than the course itself.

But that was early days of the degree.

I'm now a lawyer specialising in music / media contracts and IP - even though I'm not a working musician I enjoy helping others be.