Jeff Berlin

[hogman]

Howdey Gang

Not one to stir up a bit of a Hornets nest....

Any thoughts on Mister Berlins Not using a metronome n all. I do subscribe to his idea but I feel using a metronome helped me gauge improvments in technical excersise's n the like. I thought his speeach at bass day was cool but I still cant find anywhere what he thinks i/We should do to improve our time etc. He reckons we dont play with a metronome however we might if we play dance music where you need to follow a click track as thats what is required however he gets rid of this statment by saying there is only jazz and classical that are worth any value ( In a nutshell i cant say exactly as I am not mister Jeff)

To be honest its down to Mister Jeff that I moved a rung up the theory ladder as I studied all his coloums in Guitar Player till the next Issue came out.

[guitarnbass]

A metronome improves timing, what else do you need to know?

[hogman]

[quote name='guitarnbass' post='97711' date='Dec 2 2007, 06:26 PM']A metronome improves timing, what else do you need to know?[/quote]

My point is he says they are the tool of the devil and to not use them...

[guitarnbass]

His music stinks, and most bassists don't even know who he is, why listen to him? And for every virtuoso bassist that says don't use one, another says do.

[Rich]

Yes he's a bit arrogant -- OK, very arrogant -- but saying his music stinks is a bit strong... fair enough you don't like it, but quite a lot of people do.
FWIW I don't agree with him re: metronomes, I think they're a useful tool.

[Kiwi]

Mr Berlin is well known for his outspoken views. The thing is that you'll hear a sound bite from him which sounds like an extreme position on a given topic but if you get him to explain what he means, he becomes more moderate the more he expands.

The key to feel is being able to play in front and behind the beat, I've found playing with a metronome increased my awareness of where the beat actually was. However I certainly wouldn't recommend getting used to playing with it because most drummers are not as consistent as a metronome.

Our drummer is still struggling with hearing whether something is in front or behind. He tends to play in front all the time when the song needs him to play behind.

[ARGH]

[quote name='guitarnbass' post='97711' date='Dec 2 2007, 06:26 PM']A metronome improves timing, what else do you need to know?[/quote]

Timing is relative,no music except that by machines is metronomically correct. (Bill Bruford excepted)

Sitting and playing scales to a metronome during my early years taught me sweet fa. The education starts when on a gig,and the keys rig has gone down and a fights started up between the bestman and the brides dad...the guitarist cant read the chordchart,and the lead female vox has lost her voice.

the Jeff vs Steve Bailey debate on Bassplayer tv is something to watch on this subject.

Metronomes have very little . if any, use in modern music

Edited December 2, 2007 by ARGH

[guitarnbass]

A muso needn't be perfect, but if his or her timing is bad, a metronome is a good place to start.

[stingrayfan]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='97778' date='Dec 2 2007, 08:43 PM']Our drummer is still struggling with hearing whether something is in front or behind. He tends to play in front all the time when the song needs him to play behind.[/quote]
Reminds me of that old joke:

Q: How do you know when a drummer's knocking at your door?
A: It gets faster.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='ARGH' post='97782' date='Dec 2 2007, 09:02 PM']Metronomes have very little . if any, use in modern music[/quote]
Modern music that doesn't have sequenced parts, you mean? A professionally trained bass player should be able to play along with both quite comfortably, as should any professionally trained drummer.

[quote name='stingrayfan' post='97794' date='Dec 2 2007, 09:18 PM']Reminds me of that old joke:

Q: How do you know when a drummer's knocking at your door?
A: It gets faster.[/quote]

The problem we had when he was less confident was that I would play behind the beat on a given song and he'd slow up to match me. The song would then slowly grind to a halt. Alternatively we would be playing on top of the beat in another song and I'd drive the verse a bit as it went into the chorus and he'd speed up trying to keep on top of me.

Thing is that despite these issues, he doesn't see being in front or behind as the reason why he can't keep tempo. He had a famous session drummer also tell him that it was important to know the difference. He still swears blind he can't tell though. I've even sat down on the drums myself and played three four-on-the -floor drum beats behind, on top and in front to a blank look on his face.

PS: We're currently rehearsing Don't Stop Til You Get Enough, and you wouldn't believe the trouble the timing of two notes is causing me to get the right feel. Stuff like millisecond-perfect playing puts a lot of the widdling in perspective for me. Reckon a bit of percussion might give me a better point of reference.

[ARGH]

[quote name='guitarnbass' post='97786' date='Dec 2 2007, 09:08 PM']A muso needn't be perfect, but if his or her timing is bad, a metronome is a good place to start.[/quote]

Bad timing.... shoulda been a guitarist then..

1234.1234.1234.1234

If you can clap your hands at an even consistancy,you have timing...

Playing an instrument is a question of practice,why slave yourself to playing something to time,when you should play something correct first,...if you play it right,you play it to time,it isnt a consistant beat,because unless its machine music,its gonna push/pull because drummers are humans too (Except Bill Bruford).

Ive never been asked to play to a metronome on a gig,bar a click track for the drummer,due to samples,I cant think of ever needing or seeing a metronome onstage or at a gig or in a rehearsal room.

Given I 'need' to practice 'time' I'd rather play with a drummer,but you dont often get good drummers about,and they (good musicians) dont always want or have the time to play with bad musicians,so I say play with records.

I grew up practising with Bill Ward and Nicko McBrain,later on I played with the MGs and the Funk Brothers.....I even used to practice with the Ramones,1234 1234 1234 1234.

[bassbloke]

I don't think practicing to a metronome is that great, it's too much of a distraction. Too many people I know focus too hard on the metronome and not the quality fo the note they are producing or the feelof the pattern they are playing.

[queenofthedepths]

[quote name='guitarnbass' post='97711' date='Dec 2 2007, 06:26 PM']A metronome improves timing, what else do you need to know?[/quote]

How does a metronome improve timing..? Surely it just teaches you to play along with a metronome? However, I will admit that it's useful for getting the hang of playing pentuplets etc to a 4:4 (or any time signature, really) backing - but for learning actual songs and stuff, I'd hate to use a metronome...

[quote name='ARGH' post='97802' date='Dec 2 2007, 09:31 PM']Given I 'need' to practice 'time' I'd rather play with a drummer,but you dont often get good drummers about,and they (good musicians) dont always want or have the time to play with bad musicians,so I say play with records.[/quote]

Right on...

[hogman]

I still cant find out why no metronome though and I have been digging for a while now!

On the beat behind the beat infront of the beat I understand and express the need to have a deep understanding to all and sundry. There are many songs that dispay this mustang sally behind the beat - midnight hour pushing the beat, any acdc tune on the nail. I get my students to play each tune to a simple drum beat and get a feel for where they are sitting on the beat. Then tell me where they are on the beat. Good fun as well.

CrazyKiwi if your drummer cant find his place on the beat i think its P45 time (Unless he drives the van) no excuse in a gigging band.

I cant find a single interview where mister Jeff explains why no metronome. Please help!!!!!!!

I would like to add, in one of his lessons in the 80's he expressed singing your lines etc I have done this for years now, (stoped me shredding like the teenage metal head i was) well since then but if you heard him solo at bass day where was the breathing space.

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

To say metronomes have no use is far too sweeping a statement to take seriously.

Jeff Berlin doesn't do himself any favours if there are bass players that know him for coming across as a bit of a knob and consequently don't check out his music.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='ARGH' post='97802' date='Dec 2 2007, 09:31 PM']If you can clap your hands at an even consistancy,you have timing...[/quote]
Yeah but thats just tempo and pretty simple, to do. Jeff covers this on his standard talk on the topic by picking a youngster out of the audience and getting them to clap following his example. Big deal.

There's a difference between clapping consistently and using your fingers (and different muscle groups) to play RELATIVE to the beat which is what gives feel. I'd like to see him get that youngster to clap in front of the beat or behind. Or play the first note in a 4 beat bar in front with the rest of the notes behind.

I don't think he makes his point well at all in person, and comes across as more than a little patronising.

[ARGH]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='97820' date='Dec 2 2007, 09:55 PM']Yeah but thats just tempo and pretty simple, to do. Jeff covers this on his standard talk on the topic by picking a youngster out of the audience and getting them to clap following his example. Big deal.

There's a difference between clapping consistently and using your fingers (and different muscle groups) to play RELATIVE to the beat which is what gives feel. I'd like to see him get that youngster to clap in front of the beat or behind. Or play the first note in a 4 beat bar in front with the rest of the notes behind.

I don't think he makes his point well at all in person, and comes across as more than a little patronising.[/quote]

Its all one person. And unless you are quadraspazzed,you play in time. If you think his way of explaining is Patronizing then thats your point of view,but its a shame because Jeffs right. And it then gets onto a question of feel,not time,time IS relative to feel,but they dont live in an exclusive togetherness,and no thats not divisable by saying 'Thats what Im trying to say..',players just feel differently,like when you click with a drummer,you just ..work... We are not machines (except Bill Bruford)


Time is relative anyway...I see what you say,but its just wrong.

Edited December 2, 2007 by ARGH

[bassbloke]

[quote name='hogman' post='97813' date='Dec 2 2007, 09:47 PM']I still cant find out why no metronome though and I have been digging for a while now!

On the beat behind the beat infront of the beat I understand and express the need to have a deep understanding to all and sundry. There are many songs that dispay this mustang sally behind the beat - midnight hour pushing the beat, any acdc tune on the nail. I get my students to play each tune to a simple drum beat and get a feel for where they are sitting on the beat. Then tell me where they are on the beat. Good fun as well.

CrazyKiwi if your drummer cant find his place on the beat i think its P45 time (Unless he drives the van) no excuse in a gigging band.

I cant find a single interview where mister Jeff explains why no metronome. Please help!!!!!!!

I would like to add, in one of his lessons in the 80's he expressed singing your lines etc I have done this for years now, (stoped me shredding like the teenage metal head i was) well since then but if you heard him solo at bass day where was the breathing space.[/quote]

The only intervewI have seen that mentions this states not to use a metronome tolearn good timing, because it's not going to give it to you. That point is certainly true. Metronomes do have their place. If I'm learning a difficult part- a real finger twiser - I'l use a metronome to force myself to first play very very slowly and then up the speed. Metronomes are perfect for that.

[thumbo]

I've find my metronome to be a handy practice tool from time to time, after all it is [i]just[/i] a practice tool. I like to use mine to work on consistency of technique, not so much learning to play in time. I see no harm in practicing with a metronome, it's just not the be all end all and everyone knows that.

The main constraint on a musician not playing something in time is technique, or to be more specific- your brain not being super efficient at getting the right message to your hands at the right time.

Edited December 2, 2007 by thumbo

[Kiwi]

[quote name='hogman' post='97813' date='Dec 2 2007, 09:47 PM']CrazyKiwi if your drummer cant find his place on the beat i think its P45 time (Unless he drives the van) no excuse in a gigging band.[/quote]
Mate you should have seen the drummers we turned down! At least he plays more consistently these days. Its difficult to get professional anyone when you're starting out, goodness knows I've tried and been faced with the biggest bunch of unreliable opportunists its ever been my misfortune to meet. When you're making a bit of money suddenly every pro out there wants to be best mates. Of course, the other handy thing about our drummer is that he's an accountant so is well versed on tax matters and is doing the band accounts for us (including tax refunds on the cost of gear - I'm still hoping Flanker, Alemboid and tonyf will send me some reciepts ).

[quote name='ARGH' post='97829' date='Dec 2 2007, 10:08 PM']Time is relative anyway...I see what you say,but its just wrong.[/quote]
You mean you disagree with it? Fair enough. I challenge you to prove I'm wrong though.

[ARGH]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='97835' date='Dec 2 2007, 10:35 PM']reciepts ).


You mean you disagree with it? Fair enough. I challenge you to prove I'm wrong though. [/quote]

Prove Im not right....

www.bassplayer.tv

Jeff vs Steve debate. (if its still up)

You dont need a metronome to play or practice Bass. You just need a Bass.... (amp and cable and stable electricity source helps...oh a strap,if you wanna walk about too)

Click tracks aside..for samples and stage effects (film/lighting).

The relative-ness of time.....well myspace Dr Hawking, he's better at the abberation and abstract of 'time' than me,mind you hes electronic,so hes already in perfect time. If everything was in perfect time,like pitch you would have to bin most of your records and you would hate the rest.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='ARGH' post='97858' date='Dec 2 2007, 11:16 PM']Prove Im not right....

www.bassplayer.tv

Jeff vs Steve debate. (if its still up)

You dont need a metronome to play or practice Bass. You just need a Bass.... (amp and cable and stable electricity source helps...oh a strap,if you wanna walk about too)

Click tracks aside..for samples and stage effects (film/lighting).

The relative-ness of time.....well myspace Dr Hawking, he's better at the abberation and abstract of 'time' than me,mind you hes electronic,so hes already in perfect time. If everything was in perfect time,like pitch you would have to bin most of your records and you would hate the rest.[/quote]

Matey, the burden of proof is on you in claiming I'm wrong. If you can't prove your claim then it has no credibility.

Not sure what relevance Stephen Hawking has but if you read my original post you'll see it set out an argument of horses for courses. Metronomes are useful some of the time, but are not a way of life.

Problem with arguments like this is that it's all too easy to fall into one of two camps, when instead a bit of perspective on the situation from those who are setting an example would be a load better for bass playing in general.

Of course if you WANT to take an extreme position on this topic, that's your perogative entirely.

[chris_b]

[quote name='ARGH' post='97829' date='Dec 2 2007, 10:08 PM'].... Time is relative anyway....[/quote]
I tried that one but I still got shot for being late to the sound check!

[Bilbo]

I have listened to Jeff Berlin's 'metronome rant' for over a decade. I kind of know what he means about time but I think he is missing a trick. I think the device has merit in that it teaches you, as a developing player, to LISTEN to another sound source whilst you are determining the validity of your own 'time'. In short, if you are playing straight quarter notes solo, I have no doubt that they will be in time (as per Jeff's 'numpty from the audience' trick) but, unless you have something to refer to, you will not be able to determine whether or not your RELATIVE time is good (are you racing, dragging etc).

The metronome is no substitute for another player (because other players time shifts and you need to react to that too) but it is a perfectly credible place to start. It gives you someting to bounce if in the early days. A drum machine is probably better but a metronome, especially set to play on beats 2 & 4, can really help you find your groove. As someone said, its one tool of many and I wouldn't recommend anyone become a slave the the thing but I wouldn't dismiss it either (nor would vibes player Gary Burton, one of the world's greatest improvising musicians).

As I said on another post, I used to think JB was the best but, as I have matured, I have found him to be a very cold player, no soul, and I struggle with his sound - his 'genre' samples of bass playing (free with Bass Player magazine way back) were idiomatically uninformed (his 'rock' lines were embarrassing) and his 'train' effects on 'In Harmony's Way' are just naff. His chordal songs are clever excutions of bad material. He knows a lot (I particularly agree with his views on the value of proper musical education) but he don't know everything and 'his' way is most certainly not the only way and nor is it, in my view, the best.

Whatever our education, we all find our own path. That is why we all sound different.

[pete.young]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='97940' date='Dec 3 2007, 09:16 AM']I have listened to Jeff Berlin's 'metronome rant' for over a decade. I kind of know what he means about time but I think he is missing a trick. I think the device has merit in that it teaches you, as a developing player, to LISTEN to another sound source whilst you are determining the validity of your own 'time'. In short, if you are playing straight quarter notes solo, I have no doubt that they will be in time (as per Jeff's 'numpty from the audience' trick) but, unless you have something to refer to, you will not be able to determine whether or not your RELATIVE time is good (are you racing, dragging etc).[/quote]

+1 for that.

Another good trick is to play along to a track and then have someone drop the sound source out for 8, 12, 16 or whatever
bars and see how close you are to the original beat when it comes back in.

I think metronomes can be useful when you're starting out, and I find them handy things to have around when I sit down with a score and it says 'crotchet = 152' to figure out how fast it has to go.

I'm not impressed with Jeff's attitude either - I saw him at the London Guitar Show a couple of years ago and we got 2 minutes of bass-playing (supposedly demoing Markbass) plus a 10-minute rant about how you don't need to spend loads of money on lessons about how to play slap bass, just buy a book.

Just for the record, I have Stu Clayton's excellent book but I'm still struggling with the 'why' question rather than the 'how' question ;-)