Labels, Badges and Names

[smudge]

Oh 'eck... this will probably cause some emotional "discussion".... But

Why do we sniff at certain products/names compared to others?....

What makes a Jazz bass made by Fender made in the USA more desirable than a Made In Mexico Jazz bass or an oriental made Squire?, we can't say they are rubbish ( i have owned, a USA 66 and 78 (paid a couple of hundred quid for each in the mid 80s) and a modern Mexican Jazz), and in an A/B comparison with the head stocks covered i bet you would be pushed to tell the difference, but, we would still say that it must come from the USA to be a "proper" one.

Why do we spend thousands on valve amps and cabs made by say Ampeg, wouldn't a comparable valve amp and cabs do the same job at half the price or does the badge on the front of the equipment sway our decision, again, most of us wouldn't know the difference if we were blind folded and asked to compare.

Do we think £1500.00 for a new (sorry Myth Ste didn't mean old) bass that has been aged and had "mojo" added is really worth it?, but it comes in a hard case to prevent it getting scratched.... with a polishing cloth included!!

Personally, i own both Trace Elliot and Behringer, i have Peavey cabs, i use a Status bass but have Yamaha and OLP as well..... and use them all.

How do we decide what is rubbish and what is quality?.... are we after a functional "tool of the trade" or is the badge an important factor when making our choices, i must admit, i only bought the Behringer amp because i needed to have something when i was skint, i wouldn't have bought it based on the slagging off they get, but it has proved useful and after 4 years still works.

So why one brand and not another?... how far are we led by our eyes and how far are we led by our ears?

The equipment listed above are examples only, i could just as easily of chosen other manufacturers stuff.

Edited July 3, 2010 by smudge

[MythSte]

[quote name='smudge' post='884930' date='Jul 3 2010, 05:21 PM']Snip[/quote]

I think I get what your saying, But you've used some poor examples.

People choose USA over Mexican because higher quility parts are used. People dont use behringer because of the numerous horror stories about reliability.

You get what you pay for!

As far as the mojo'd basses are concerned. Old ones are rarer and cost more. otherwise its just supply and demand innit.

[Sean]

[quote name='smudge' post='884930' date='Jul 3 2010, 05:21 PM']Why do we spend thousands on valve amps and cabs made by say Ampeg, wouldn't a comparable valve amp and cabs do the same job at half the price

but have Yamaha and OLP as well..... and use them all.[/quote]

What all-valve amp is [i]comparable[/i] at half the price? All-valve amps are inherently expensive.

Careful with Yamaha, some of us have really £££ Yams!

I totally get the Fender thing, though, I wouldn't be seen dead with a USA [b][i]or[/i][/b] Mexico one :snob:

[smudge]

[quote name='Sean' post='884941' date='Jul 3 2010, 05:32 PM']What all-valve amp is [i]comparable[/i] at half the price? All-valve amps are inherently expensive.

Careful with Yamaha, some of us have really £££ Yams!

I totally get the Fender thing, though, I wouldn't be seen dead with a USA [b][i]or[/i][/b] Mexico one :snob:[/quote]

i know, i love my Yamahas, some of the best bases i have [i]ever[/i] played. Great tone, consistent feel and reliable.

[flyfisher]

I'm sure a lot of it is peer-pressure and self-esteem. Look at clothing, cars, hi-fi, laptops and mobile phones - they all have their 'cool' brands and people end up paying for it, presumably to make themselves feel good and/or superior. The extreme of this sort of behaviour is epitomised by personal number plates - what function do they serve except to broadcast to the world that the owner has money to burn? The implication, presumably, being they are therefore somehow superior to everyone else.

Sure, there's an element of getting what you pay for, but get beyond the level of adequate functionality and build quality and you're into paying-for-the-image territory.

[Adrenochrome]

Without labels, names and badges, how would people know who to slavishly copy? People might make their own decisions and that'd never do.

[Delberthot]

After mucho basses from a Warwick Thumb and a Modulus Flea bass to a Wesley see through bass and another that I got for free that it doesn't matter what bass I play anymore.

It may be from changing so often that I've adapted to being able to get used to any bass very quickly

My current bass is an Epiphone EB-3 that I've just fitted a Hipshot bridge to to make it easier to adjust. Other than that its original.

My other bass is a fretless conglomeration of Squier PJ body, fretless neck bought from Gafbass and and an Artec active 2 band EQ.

Ampwise its a whole different kettle of fish - to enable me to get 'my' sound I must have a Gallien Krueger amp as nothing else will do. For cabs I've been searching for years for something with balls that allows me to hear my sound clearly yet have a lot of grunt so I can use it for standalone or with a PA. Currently and for the foreseeable I am using a phenomenal trace elliot 2x15" with 7052H bright box.


So there you have it - I've thrown down the gauntlet before: I can take any bass and I mean any bass as long as it can be set up and gig it live. Amps are a whole different thing - my amp has to be new or nearly new as I have a mad phobia about my amp breaking down. Cabwise, as long as it has the balls regardless of age I'll try it.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='smudge' post='884930' date='Jul 3 2010, 05:21 PM']What makes a Jazz bass made by Fender made in the USA more desirable than a Made In Mexico Jazz bass or an oriental made Squire?[/quote]
You raise some good points, but let's focus on this one.

Imagine I showed you a picture of three apparently identical bars of chocolate.

* One is made from 'traditional ingredients' in the same factory where they've been making it for years. It's quite expensive.
* The second is made in the country next door with some ingredients shipped in from the original factory. It's a bit cheaper than the domestically-produced chocolate.
* The third is made in a faraway nation where there's a fair bit of labour exploitation and the sourcing of the ingredients is a bit opaque. It's ludicrously cheap.

Knowing that, but without tasting them, how would one rank them in terms of 'value' and desirability? Commonsense would suggest the original would come out on top.

Now let's assume one has tried them and they [i]all[/i] taste pretty good in their own way. So you buy the one that best satisfies your budget and your personal tastes. Ultimately, it's matter of preference and financial resources.

Edited July 4, 2010 by skankdelvar

[BigRedX]

+1 Skank - and great to see you back!

BTW it doesn't matter which Fender you buy they all suffer from the same fundamental design flaws, which makes where they were made irrelevant.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='885201' date='Jul 4 2010, 02:15 AM']Ultimately, it's matter of preference and financial resources.[/quote]
Isn't that a universal truth?

[quote name='BigRedX' post='885202' date='Jul 4 2010, 09:18 AM']BTW it doesn't matter which Fender you buy they all suffer from the same fundamental design flaws, which makes where they were made irrelevant.[/quote]
Wouldn't 'fundamental design flaws' make any product effectively useless? I appreciate you might not like Fenders (as per skankdelvar's observation) but their widespread use througout the professional music industry would seem to suggest they are far from useless.

[thisnameistaken]

FWIW I've got an old Thumb bass on the stand behind me but the last four gigs I've played I took a Squier Jazz. Nobody batted an eyelid, nobody suggested there was anything wrong with the sound, I didn't struggle to play it, it did the job.

But I have had to replace the bridge, machines and pots because the stock ones were just garbage.

[chardbass]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='885201' date='Jul 4 2010, 02:15 AM']You raise some good points, but let's focus on this one.

Imagine I showed you a picture of three apparently identical bars of chocolate.

* One is made from 'traditional ingredients' in the same factory where they've been making it for years. It's quite expensive.
* The second is made in the country next door with some ingredients shipped in from the original factory. It's a bit cheaper than the domestically-produced chocolate.
* The third is made in a faraway nation where there's a fair bit of labour exploitation and the sourcing of the ingredients is a bit opaque. It's ludicrously cheap.

Knowing that, but without tasting them, how would one rank them in terms of 'value' and desirability? Commonsense would suggest the original would come out on top.

Now let's assume one has tried them and they [i]all[/i] taste pretty good in their own way. So you buy the one that best satisfies your budget and your personal tastes. Ultimately, it's matter of preference and financial resources.[/quote]


Sod the basses, I'm hungry. let's eat chocolate.

[gjones]

The badge thing could a desire for the 'Real Thing'. Also conspicuous consumption may come into the equation as well [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspicuous_consumption"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspicuous_consumption[/url]

I am relatively intelligent and am well aware that I am being manipulated by marketing men. I have 3 Jazz basses none of which were made in the USA. I have them because they sound great but I still hanker after an American built one.

It's a bit sad really.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='flyfisher' post='885264' date='Jul 4 2010, 09:54 AM']Isn't that a universal truth?[/quote]
That's why I like it. It's universal and it's da troof. What could be finer?

FWIW, at my last support gig, I turned up with my £150 Brandoni kit Jazz with added Gotoh 201 and forgery logo. Headliner (mate of a mate) had a proper US jazz in the same colour, same black scratchplate, hi-mass bridge. We put them both on stands next to the bass rig and stood back. From 3 feet away they looked identical. We stood quietly and pondered, as men do.

Later on, in a fairly average mix, the Jazzes sounded pretty identical and there's a certain wry pleasure to be derived from that. But I still know which I'd rather have.

Edited July 4, 2010 by skankdelvar

[munkonthehill]

I enjoy going on stage and playing my very clean and shiney fenders through my ampeg rig. Yes I probably went for them due to the names.

However.....

My first real bass was a 4 string vintage bubinga. It was a decent bass for the price although I had no real knowledge of basses, so lets face it,,a cricket bat at that point would have been fine.

I then made a huge jump to my Jag then finally my aerodyne.

the bbuild quality is much better, the active preamp on my jag is much better than the vintage and the tone pot on the aerodyne really makes a huge difference in the......well tone.....

My pals boy wanted me to show him a few thing on bass and he is using a eb-1 copy by shine. the neck is nice and thin and it plays decent.....however what would you walk on stage with,,one of my fenders or the eb-1 copy??????????? lol

when I plugged the shine into his peavey amp thats when you can hear the sound quality is night and day with my higher end gear....

heres a wee story that I think fits well here:

For a wedding gift my uncle bought me crystal wine glasses. I said to him "I would never imagine a time i would use them"..He replied and said to me that when he has a glass of wine in the house he uses his crystal glass and he (kinda jokingly) said it makes it taste just a little better.

We joked about this, however on my next glass of wine, out comes the crystal.

I think this fits here, lets face it,,,

YOU having an amazing bass or amp isnt going to make you any better. However stnading infront of an audience with your cracking gear makes you feel good gives you a great tone and thats whats important.

[Rayman]

I've just flogged the best Precision I've played in years for £125 quid, and all because it said Squier on the headstock. Superb old bass, playability and tone in spades, I'll really miss it a lot, and it's way better than many of the Fenders I've tried in recent years. Says it all really.

[discreet]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='885201' date='Jul 4 2010, 02:15 AM']Imagine I showed you a picture of three apparently identical bars of chocolate. Now let's assume one has tried them and they [i]all[/i] taste pretty good in their own way. So you buy the one that best satisfies your budget and your personal tastes. Ultimately, it's matter of preference and financial resources.[/quote]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='885243' date='Jul 4 2010, 09:18 AM']+1... ...BTW it doesn't matter which Fender you buy they all suffer from the same fundamental design flaws, which makes where they were made irrelevant.[/quote]

It depends entirely on whether or not you like chocolate.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='discreet' post='885753' date='Jul 4 2010, 08:05 PM']It depends entirely on whether or not you like chocolate.[/quote]
Everybody doesn't like something, but nobody doesn't like chocolate.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='885854' date='Jul 4 2010, 09:40 PM']Everybody doesn't like something, but nobody doesn't like chocolate.[/quote]

Thanks for reminding me I left a galaxy caramel in the fridge and it needs eating before my girlfriend gets home.

[goblin]

One thing I've realised about badge snobbery is that age can come into play a lot of the time. I'm 18 and have been playing for several years now, and what I've realised is that when you're young, if you've got one of the big name brands such as Fender or Gibson, you're automatically superior. In my current band, one guitarist has a mexican Fender Jazzmaster, the other has a Gibson Les Paul Special. They're pretty bog standard and I'm not a fan of both, as the Fender sounds awful and nothing has been done to the mile high set up. But at gigs, everyone raves because it's got Fender and Gibson written on it.

Since I gig with a pair of Warwicks and a Wal, older bassists and guitarist who know of Wal immediately spot it and are mugging me for a go on it, yet anyone under the age of 20 I've come across at gigs are glued to the Warwicks, even though I see the Wal as a far superior bass. But if I give them a Rockbass Warwick, and then one of my German ones, I bet they won't tell the difference, as the Rockbass still looks like one, and has "Warwick" written on it.

It's nice to be annonymous when playing, as I don't run the gear for badge value. I play it because it works and it's what suits me best. If someone offered me a cheap Jazz with hardware upgrades and stuff, if I liked it, I'd run it. Simple as

[KevB]

Still not convinced about the Behringer bashing, never had any of the several pieces of kit I've bought from them actually fail. Could it be that we hear more stories of them going wrong just because there is such a huge volume of their merchandise out there? As a percentage of total volume sold are they really less reliable? Would they still be a successful business in today's cutthroat market if all thay sold was utter useless tat? But I digress, back to the OP - I have a USA jazz and I have an Indonesian Squire P bass special. Going by rough 'as new' prices the jazz bass should be about 4 or 5 times better than the P and in truth it does feel like a better quality instrument but not to that degree.

Edited July 5, 2010 by KevB

[Conan]

Wasn't there a similar thread to this a few weeks ago? Something along the lines of "Top-end gear - are we fooling ourselves" kind of thing.

The general consensus seemed to be that as long as there is expensive gear, some people will aspire towards it just because it is expensive. Sure, they will then justify the expense by talking about the quality of their purchase, and on the other hand talk about how their cheaper gear actually sounds better, but just in a "different way"...

Good luck to those who buy the top-end gear. I personally can neither afford it nor justify it, but I can still enjoy looking at it and pipe-dreaming!

That said - there are a HUGE number of pro players who use Fender/Gibson/Ampeg/Marshall and swear by them, even those individuals who don't need the endorsements! So there must be something in that...

But then again, I drive a Skoda - so what do I know?!

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Conan' post='886264' date='Jul 5 2010, 01:30 PM']Wasn't there a similar thread to this a few weeks ago?[/quote]
Probably, there usually is.

[quote name='Conan' post='886264' date='Jul 5 2010, 01:30 PM']But then again, I drive a Skoda - so what do I know?! [/quote]
Me too. Can't beat them.

[spinynorman]

Behringer is a mixed bag. I had some of their pedals, which were nasty and a Bass V-Amp, which was ok if you like amp modellers, but to me it sounded synthetic. I've still got a Mic100 tube preamp, which is very good and a SM58 clone which I bought new for £20 and which sounds better than the real SM58s we have.

[goblin]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='886318' date='Jul 5 2010, 02:36 PM']Probably, there usually is.


Me too. Can't beat them.[/quote]

I've got a VW... does that count as it's still VAG?