Jack 210

[discreet]

[quote name='bumnote' post='912612' date='Aug 2 2010, 11:03 AM']The two 1x12 you would have to make two carry trips, or possibly join them together as there are pictures on Bills site.[/quote]

The decision is made for me really, I wouldn't be able to get a 2X12 in the car when I have to.
If you're used to hauling a 2X15, then no problemo!

[gilmour]

FWIW I'd recommend individual cabs rather than a single 2x12. The build cost will be marginally higher, and of course you'll need an extra lead but the flexibility is worth it. I have two Omni 10.5's (the single driver precursor to the Jack10) and for rehearsal I use a single cab, then for gigs I can use two. They're a one had carry, although the jacks will be heavier given all of the extra wood in them, I doubt these will be a 'lightweight cab' but still a single driver one would be a single hand lift - much easier than a 2x15! That said if you use Neo drivers, and source some good quality light spruce (IIRC) ply then that should keep weight down.

The reason Im going for 2x10's with this build is because they are for PA duty, so will have more strain on them more of the time, also if we have a small gig I already have the Omni's

[quote name='discreet' post='912588' date='Aug 2 2010, 10:38 AM']Er... sorry Rob, I've gone OT a little... :blush: [/quote]

Haha no worries I welcome it - distracts from m shoddy woodwork! and I'm glad to know I've inspired others - If I were you guys though I'd get making hay while the sunshines, or at least cutting up ply while it's not raining (unless your lucky enough to have a workshops/garage). As well as get on with the build I have really been working on my tan

[quote name='bumnote' post='912612' date='Aug 2 2010, 11:03 AM']Gilmour are you going to paint them or cover them?[/quote]

I'm not sure atm, I have some carpet left over from other builds, but carpeting these bad boys will be tricky, however the carpet does hide a lot of sins in the wood work I also have some fake alligator skin (bit like marshall cabs) that I could use,or I've even been toying with pimping them out and doing them in cream faux leather However all these options leave them open to kitten attack! My kitten is six months old and likes nothing better than scratching bass equipment. Because of the cat situation I may go with paint - but I'm gonna see how good my wood looks first.

Edited August 2, 2010 by gilmour

[bumnote]

[quote name='gilmour' post='912624' date='Aug 2 2010, 11:15 AM']I'm not sure atm, I have some carpet left over from other builds, but carpeting these bad boys will be tricky, however the carpet does hide a lot of sins in the wood work I also have some fake alligator skin (bit like marshall cabs) that I could use,or I've even been toying with pimping them out and doing them in cream faux leather However all these options leave them open to kitten attack! My kitten is six months old and likes nothing better than scratching bass equipment. Because of the cat situation I may go with paint - but I'm gonna see how good my wood looks first.[/quote]


I rather fancy cream tolex with the oxblood grill as used on the fender amps in the early 60s.
My initial amp desire was either a fender tromolux or a fender bassman which were finished like that, [and that was before Marshall started.]

Trouble is I think there will be a lot of work to cover them and make them look good although I have done it before.

I once covered a marshall 100w and 4x12 in white and that looked really sharp

[gilmour]

I actually find the covering the easiest bit of the build. But I do a lot of street art and stencilling (legally) so am very used to the adhesives and craft knives etc, the first time I covered a cab it already felt like a very familiar process.

If you're going for a grille then the covering of the res of the cab is easy - just wrap a large piece all the way around, then a separate bit for the back - all the cuts and potentially uneven parts will be covered by either the grill, or the back plate.

[LawrenceH]

A word of caution...I tried two each of both a 12-piezo melded and 6-piezo flat array using piezos shipped by Leland, on 4 Jack 10s. The sound is ok for giving a bit of fizz for bass guitar, but I was seriously unimpressed with the sound for PA. I only tried using a bi-amped configuration, and the suggested passive crossover design will alter the frequency response. But even with a graphic EQ I couldn't get a sound that I liked out of them. I A/B'ed with an Eminence CD from a Yamaha Club series speaker (PSD2002, these are about £50 new I think? It's the more expensive one recommended in the plans IIRC) and the Eminence just sounded so much sweeter, despite the fact it's not the world's best comp driver. In my opinion the sound was noticeably worse than your average semi-respectable entry-level PA speaker.
Your mileage may vary, as they say on that thar internet.

Edited August 3, 2010 by LawrenceH

[gilmour]

Hmm,

Interesting I've been using my omni 10.5's for PA and they have a straight 4 piezo melded array in each. I juat run straight into the cab no crossover or bi amping.

They'd always been used for small acoustic type gigs up until recently when I had to use them for maybe 100 people, we had 4 vox, horns and keys going through the PA. It was the first time the drums have struggled to keep up.

We'd originally taken the Omni 10.5s along for monitors and some yamaha 15" jobs for FOH, but at soundcheck realised that the Omnis sounded better so swapped.

I was asked about EQ on another forum here's the results. [url="http://finnbass.com/showpost.php?p=110442&postcount=33"]http://finnbass.com/showpost.php?p=110442&postcount=33[/url]

Dave Perry also did a lot of more scientific tests of Comp Driver Vs Piezo and the results were surprising.

TBH if I were buying everything from scratch I'd go comp driver as it's now the cheaper option! But I had all the piezos lying about.

Ho hum, we'll see how it goes I hope to be testing next week.

[david_l_perry]

[quote name='gilmour' post='914032' date='Aug 3 2010, 04:35 PM']Dave Perry also did a lot of more scientific tests of Comp Driver Vs Piezo and the results were surprising.[/quote]

Indeed....

I built a pair of Bill Fitz DR290's each loaded with a pair of JBL 2416 1" comp drivers, bi-amped, time aligned and EQ'd

I then built a second pair of DR280's (the DR280 is the same cab as the DR290 but loaded with 12piezos in place of the pair of comp drivers)

I had built these for bass backline but thought I would use the opportunity to try out the piezo / comp driver debate.

Myself and two other Pa providers had the rigs set side by side, both Eq'd for a fairly flat response. The DR280's loaded with piezo's sounded every bit as good as the JBL's (in fact they had a little smoother top end response)

Bearing in mind that these didn't need the extra amp, external digital crossover or time alignment...its was pretty surprising. I imediatley stripped the JBL's and retrofitted them with Piezos.

When I was testing the piezos with my RTA, I did find a massive difference between manufacturers, in output and freq response.

One thing that has to be said is that all of the Horn loaded stuff that I have built / tried needs a fair amount of EQ to get them sounding bang on, and they tend to be far bigger boxes than the typical baffle loaded boxes that need far less EQ, but you also need more power for the smaller boxes....nothing is perfect.

Good stuff Rob !

Dave

[Phil Starr]

I'm following this with interest mainly because I want to see what you all think of the piezo arrays. I love the simplicity of piezos and they sound ok to me except that the sound output is ultimately limited as is their power handling. The array gets around this but I've always suspected that with the spacing of the drivers corresponding to the wavelengths of sound they are reproducing there will be serious interference problems. It's a problem with all line source arrays. I guess in the end I will have to try it out myself but with Gilmour building these ...

Another solution I've tried is these

[url="http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=SKT902490&browsemode=category"]http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=SKT...semode=category[/url]

Which screw in to a standard horn flare

[url="http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=SKT902384&browsemode=category"]http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=SKT...semode=category[/url]

I've tried these with some PA speakers I built and for the price (£10ish) they are remarkable. They claim 105dB/W though I measured them (very roughly) at 103. I used series caps to reduce the voltage across them to use them with a 500W amp and to match them with the bass drivers and of course tried them with my bass. Bloody fantastic if you like a DI'd sound.

[gilmour]

Last time I posted a proper update I'd just done the horn sides.

Next up I had to install the top and sides - the only shock about this part of the process is that it was all relatively uneventful, and they went straight on!

Filled the holes, then took my new router and rounded the edges, quick sand and hey presto woodwork done (more or less).

Looked like this:






Then the weather was bad and I was ill.

cont...

[gilmour]

...cont

So today I got off my arse and decided to finish these bad boys.

I've been bothered by the holes in the piezo array, they're from the screw holes already in the piezo horn, when you trim the piezos and glue them together two 'half holes' join together to form a whole hole:D. My concern is that if I attach the array to the cab via these holes and tighten it too much then it could damage the array, so I decided to fill them. I used [url="http://http://www.milliput.com/"]Milliput[/url]to do this - those of you who've done any model making will probably know what it is. For the rest of you it's a two part epoxy putty that you need together into a turd like lump and then mould it into whatever you want.


So I filled the wholes, and stuck the excess on the back for a little strengthening.


This'll get a light sand and spray. Not sure what colour though - I do have some chrome paint

Once this was done the weather started to warm up so I got outside and rattled through two cans of primer.


I spent an age trying to attach the struts to hold the Piezo array, and they kept moving around, after a while I decided I needed something exactly the same size as the piezos to act as a little gluing Jig - then I decided not to bother and just used the Piezo's!

Looks cool:


Then made busy with the carpet and adhesive, I like this part of the build as it's the part I feel really confident in. An hour or so later it was getting dark so shoddy pics from inside:


And for size comparison here's my Omni15TB:


The pics still look a little spanky, but all the inside needs done yet, and I might try and paint the horn as the primer on it's own looks a little like blackboard paint, but all in all a good day. Tomorrow I make busy with the soldering Iron and hopefully will be making some noise

Edited August 8, 2010 by gilmour

[discreet]

Hope you're feeling better, Rob. Nice work. Can't wait to see what they sound like.

[bumnote]

having decided on 2 single twelves in the week im now back on a 2x12 mode

curses

looks great

[gilmour]

Just in case any of you were doubting me I did finish these in time, and we gigged them on Friday night. Here's the proof (very very bad mobile phone pic)


The lack of updates is due to the cat killing my laptop (knocked it off a cupboard and shattered the screen) making updates very awkward at the moment. Here's what everything looks like....


At the gig one of the piezo arrays crapped out on me - but that was my bad wiring and is now fixed, and sounds much better.

I'll do a full review and pics once the insurance company have gotten back to me (they said 5 days, 6 days ago!).

But first impressions,
[list]
[*] These are heavy cabs, I didn't use neo drivers which would obviously make a difference, but even unloaded they weigh a lot. That said we're talking about 500W cabs and I'm not sure equivalent Mackie's would be much lighter.
[*] To my ear there's significantly more bottom end than from two Omni 10.5s
[*] They sound a little more 'boxy' and require a lot more EQing - but will reserve judgment on this as one of the cabs had faulty piezos.
[*] The woodwork is much more involved than the Omni's - If you've not made cabs before these will be a push - for the easiest of Bill's builds I'd recommend an Omni15 (or Omni12) - the O10.5 is also an easy build, but no longer available to buy. The extra woodwork contributes to the weight.
[*] They're bloody loud
[*] Next gig I'll be happy to throw Vox, keys, trumpet and kick drum through these - without sweating too much about whether they can handle it (it is after all a 1K rig)
[*] TBH I'm not sure if the improved bottom end has been worth all of the extra hassle of the build - I think this has taken me 3 times longer than If I was to build a pair of Omni10s - that said the improved bass is nice to have, and means I can chuck a kick drum through the PA, so I'll give it a few more gigs whilst I reserve judgment.
[/list]

I'll do some decent pics once I have a laptop that isn't a complete PITA to use (at the moment I'm having to run it through an old PC monitor and the resolution is all funny).

Edited August 19, 2010 by gilmour

[bumnote]

have you tried these with a bass?

[gilmour]

[quote name='bumnote' post='929538' date='Aug 19 2010, 11:03 AM']have you tried these with a bass?[/quote]

Oooh, not yet.

TBH the thought hadn't even occured to me mostly because when I'm testing I've been playing audio through them so I can hear all of the frequencies better. I don't doubt that they'd sound very good with bass.

At some point I'll do an A-B against the Omni10s and Omni15 maybe some commercial cabs to if I ever have the time. Just so busy with gigs and stuff I never seem to find the time to finish my geekier pursuits

[discreet]

Don't neglect your geekier pursuits!

Great work, look forward to your review!

[Phil Starr]

Got that laptop fixed yet? Hope so, I can't be the only one looking forward to the next post.

[gilmour]

[quote name='Phil Starr' post='941596' date='Sep 1 2010, 12:00 AM']Got that laptop fixed yet? Hope so, I can't be the only one looking forward to the next post.[/quote]

Sadly no - the insurance company are really dragging their heels, it looks like the whole thing will have to be replaced as not only is the screen damaged but the CD drive is knackered and the hard drive corrupt

So I only have intermittent internet access.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='gilmour' post='942368' date='Sep 1 2010, 05:10 PM']Sadly no - the insurance company are really dragging their heels, it looks like the whole thing will have to be replaced as not only is the screen damaged but the CD drive is knackered and the hard drive corrupt

So I only have intermittent internet access.[/quote]
Bad luck

[gilmour]

[quote name='Phil Starr' post='942467' date='Sep 1 2010, 06:45 PM']Bad luck[/quote]

Yes it's a real pain in the arse TBH. My insurance policy states old for new, most cases dealt with in 48 hours. It's now been nearly a month, and they've told me they're fixing the old laptop, but only the screen, not the case, damaged CD drive or corrupted hard drive. I'm at a bit of an impass with them at the moment.

[Phil Starr]

Guess you are still having computer trouble bu it would be lovely to hear how your speakers are sounding

Cheers

[discreet]

[quote name='Phil Starr' post='965384' date='Sep 23 2010, 10:53 AM']Guess you are still having computer trouble but it would be lovely to hear how your speakers are sounding[/quote]

+1

[gilmour]

I've had my laptop back just shy of a week now (wound up rebuilding half of it myself!) so am busy catching up on 6 weeks worth of work.

Anyway just for my fellow bass anoraks I used the Jack as a bass cab last weekend, it was not the best venue in the world but...

The cab sounded fine, not as bright as I would have anticipated, but there was a smoothness to the top end that I found very pleasing. The cab goes quite low for what it is (a 2x10) certainly lower than an Omni10.5. I found it required more EQing to get a sound I was happy with than other cabs.

My biggest concern is still the Piezo array and it's fragility, once it's all glued together an screwed to the wood it's certainly a lot stronger, but still feel like it needs some extra bracing somewhere - I even used solid copper to wire the piezos, definitely overkill for sound, but added a bit of strength.

I'm surprised but just how loud these are as PA cabs, for most gigs I'm doing they will actually be overkill, which I hadn't realised at the start, but two of these, running at 4ohms each, is a 1k rig! I don't need that for 80 people at a wedding lol. Anyway because of his they can cope with just about anything I throw at them, which is nice.

I'm pleased with the way these cabs have come out, but if I had my time again I would probably have built more Omni 10.5's as I prefer the sound (although they won't go as low) and they are a much simpler build.

I'd still like to do an AB at some point, but I'm off on tour for a bit, and then have a few gigs, I think my next weekend off is the first weekend in Nov, when I will be lying in bed eating chips, but maybe towards the end of Nov I'll find some 'comparison time' I'm sorry to let you guys down on that, but just can't find a spare minute atm.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='gilmour' post='965866' date='Sep 23 2010, 05:40 PM']I think my next weekend off is the first weekend in Nov, when I will be lying in bed eating chips[/quote]

Best post ever!

[Spacehog]

Nice build Gilmour, i'm now starting 2 112's.

what pu adhesive did you use?