Versatility or Stylistic?

[tony_m]

I'd love to be versatile, but to be perfectly honest I'm not, and would be happy being that Dusty Hill / Billy Talbot kinda guy if I could find a suitable band...

Actually, this brings me to a question that's been on my mind for a while. How much do you reckon being a skillful / accomplished bass player is down to natural talent, and how much can be learnt / picked up? I realise the ultimate answer will probably require a piece of string, but I'd be interested to hear the views of the experienced players on here (I'd definitely put myself in the "more enthusiasm than natural talent" camp).

[JTUK]

Stylistyically versatile is my goal.
Most of my playing buddies know my style...they just don't know where I got it all from....

I think I can plug into most things, but there are some that really don't suit me, either because I don't have that sound or don't have any empathy with the genre. Not a problem AFAIAC.

[ElCapitan]

[quote name='6stringbassist' post='896738' date='Jul 16 2010, 06:01 PM']If you look at my Myspace page you'll see most of my top 10 'friends' are with a few exceptions versatile session or freelance players.[/quote]


You have a myspace page?? Cool!

[Mog]

[quote name='bubinga5' post='896952' date='Jul 16 2010, 10:45 PM']Nathan East one of the best...i loved his playing with Anita Baker..it was just (at the time, and now) the best ive ever heard....a totally amazing soul(at the time) bassist...he has so much...did you read the interview in BG??[/quote]

Sorry lad, I logged out after I posted that reply last night. Anyways, no I didn't see the BG interview, was it the latest issue? I stopped buying bass mags about 6-7 years ago. I pick up an odd issue of guitarist or guitar techniques maybe twice a year and thats it. I reckon if theres something I need to know or find out its better to come to places like this or just be bold and ask another bassist I see playing well.

Back on topic, great thread Doddy. I think its a lot to do with personality too. I sure Geddy and Les etc could do fine as session bassists but they are in two of the biggest bands in the rock world. Part of that scene is the touring and the recognition they recieve etc which I'm sure also leads to a high level of satisfaction. The great session bassists are more than happy to take a back seat and just play for the sake of playing great music.

Theres a lot to be said for an ability to cover the many styles of music out there but very few bassists can nail one "style". Think Stu Hamm in Sepultura or Cliff Burton with Nelly Furtado (pre electro pop rubbish). To excel in one genrei s a feat in itself. Thats why, IMO, 99% of session bassists are merely going through the motions in most cases. What sets the greats apart is the ability to get into a song, put their own twist on it and keep it relevent to that genre.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Mog' post='897453' date='Jul 17 2010, 05:47 PM']................. To excel in one genrei s a feat in itself. Thats why, IMO, 99% of session bassists are merely going through the motions in most cases. What sets the greats apart is the ability to get into a song, put their own twist on it and keep it relevent to that genre.[/quote]


Great session players or 'greats' in a popular band???

Most bookers on sessions will not want anyone going through the motions, for sure, and the artist certainly wont, IMO.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Mog' post='897453' date='Jul 17 2010, 05:47 PM']IMO, 99% of session bassists are merely going through the motions in most cases.[/quote]
If that was true then I doubt many of them would still be working.

[velvetkevorkian]

Let's just say I'd rather be Darryl Jones than Bill Wyman.

[Mog]

How many of the basslines in chart music are standout nowadays. How many make you sit up and think, Wow what an unusual place to play X, Y or Z. None. Like I said in an earlier post, I've done the money thing.My first well paying gig as a session musician was at a blues/jazz and country music club, on some nights I'd have to cover bass, guitar and keys depending on the bill. I've seen what others do and how they approach different styles of music. From studios to clubs 99% of session musicians go through the motions. No feel, no personal touch. Just do the job, get paid. How long they last in the game is another thing Dave. Its not like theres an overabundence of quailty musicians. Those who last are the ones who do it well. The 1% I mentioned.
Do you really think artists in popular music, who have no input in the songwriting process, have a notion what a session musician is or is not doing? Or even care for that matter, Considering the bassist who lays the track in the studio is rarely the same one(s) who will playing on tour.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='velvetkevorkian' post='897501' date='Jul 17 2010, 07:06 PM']Let's just say I'd rather be Darryl Jones than Bill Wyman. [/quote]
But I would hazard a guess and say that Bill Wyman would still be playing in The Stones if he wanted to.

Darryl Jones for all his 'chops' is simply a hired hand and replaceable at Mick n Keef's whim...

[risingson]

I always wanted to model myself on my favourite session players like Pino Palladino or Nathan East, who have a wide variety of sounds and can be relied on to do a good job in most, if not any situation. Nowadays there is no scope for session work unless you are a killer reader and player, in which case you push yourself to the BBC or in the West End in this country, still a massively difficult thing to do. I want to do whatever makes me money playing in the future, I'm not stupid enough anymore to believe I could work like session musicians of previous generations. It's a wholly different environment, and if that means me sitting back and not overplaying in any given capacity, I'm happy with that. In the future I want a degree of control in what I do, but you've gotta fake it to make it before you can have that luxury. Until then I'll give people what they want to hear before pushing the boat out.

[risingson]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='896891' date='Jul 16 2010, 09:25 PM']I think you can usually tell when a musician doesn't really like the music they're playing. If you're playing music that you wouldn't actually listen to in your own time, it's obvious. Over the years I have played in bands that span many different genres but in each case it's been music that I like a lot. I couldn't do a Top 40 band or a country band or a rock band because my heart wouldn't be in it.

So for me it's not a case of "stylistic or versatile", it's more a case of soul or no soul.[/quote]

I kind of disagree. If you are happy with music as a hobby then I would agree with that last sentiment, but if you want to make money playing music then eventually you'll find yourself in a position where you have to do something you don't enjoy. That's when you find out who's a good player and who's a bad one... the bad player will be the one with the sorry expression on his face not getting involved like they should and the good one will apply their skills in the best way possible and get stuck in, even if they don't like it. It doesn't mean they're soulless musicians. Every job in life, even the ones you enjoy, requires a degree of sacrifice, nothing is as cut and dry as it seems.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='liamcapleton' post='897743' date='Jul 18 2010, 02:00 AM']I kind of disagree. If you are happy with music as a hobby then I would agree with that last sentiment, but if you want to make money playing music then eventually you'll find yourself in a position where you have to do something you don't enjoy. That's when you find out who's a good player and who's a bad one... the bad player will be the one with the sorry expression on his face not getting involved like they should and the good one will apply their skills in the best way possible and get stuck in, even if they don't like it. It doesn't mean they're soulless musicians. Every job in life, even the ones you enjoy, requires a degree of sacrifice, nothing is as cut and dry as it seems.[/quote]

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about. The "stylistic" guys Doddy is talking about (what he means is they're famous for one thing because they did that first or outstandingly well, and they're consequently considered way better at that thing than any of the "versatile" people he's talking about) ended up where they are because they were doing something they were 100% passionate about and the industry took notice and said "Hey, we think lots of other people would like to hear what you're doing, here's some money", etc.

Whereas the people you and Doddy are talking about ("my favourite session musicians") are more like "Hey dude this is successful MOR Artist 'X' from the previous decade or newly label-created R&B singer 'Y''s famous "producer" - we'd like you to come to our slick studio in LA and make our slick pop records sound slick please, so that people who listen to a lot of Top 40 radio but otherwise don't give a sh*t about music really will buy our new record".

I would 100% love to be in the former position, where the music I'm making because that's what I love suddenly becomes a desirable sound and everybody's throwing money at me for it. But I would be bored to tears if instead I had people calling saying "Hey I heard you can play your instrument well in various styles, and I need various styles recorded adequately, can you come down..." - I would be crying into my ovaltine every night.

Honestly when I read your post where it said "I always wanted to model myself on my favourite session players" it made me wonder why you started to play bass in the first place. For me it was a happy accident, but within a short while I'd latched on to players like Norwood Fisher, and people from my past like Bruce Foxton or Bedders or Bruce Thomas. I can't imagine ever thinking "I wish I was more like a characterless session musician".

Might sound harsh but really that's how I feel. I just find it weird that anyone ever felt driven to take up a musical instrument because they heard an unnamed contributor to an artist's record do his thing quietly in the background. Didn't you have a f***ing rock star to look up to?

Edited July 18, 2010 by thisnameistaken

[Pete Academy]

Steve Lukather. Great player, own sound and style, rock star, played on some of the greatest records around, member of Toto, legendary band.

I can't seem to think of a bass equivalent.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Mog' post='897504' date='Jul 17 2010, 07:08 PM']How many of the basslines in chart music are standout nowadays. How many make you sit up and think, Wow what an unusual place to play X, Y or Z. None. Like I said in an earlier post, I've done the money thing.My first well paying gig as a session musician was at a blues/jazz and country music club, on some nights I'd have to cover bass, guitar and keys depending on the bill. I've seen what others do and how they approach different styles of music. From studios to clubs 99% of session musicians go through the motions. No feel, no personal touch. Just do the job, get paid. How long they last in the game is another thing Dave. Its not like theres an overabundence of quailty musicians. Those who last are the ones who do it well. The 1% I mentioned.
Do you really think artists in popular music, who have no input in the songwriting process, have a notion what a session musician is or is not doing? Or even care for that matter, Considering the bassist who lays the track in the studio is rarely the same one(s) who will playing on tour.[/quote]


Don't agree with the 'not bothered attitude' at all.
Too many people chasing too few jobs for that, IME.

[BigRedX]

I think in the end in comes down to whether you want to make money playing music, or just play some music and if you're lucky make some money too.

If you want to do the former then most people (and I would imagine that's pretty much everyone who posts here and makes a living as a musician) are going to find themselves at some point playing music that they don't particularly care for, and also will have to be well versed in as many different styles as possible, because you can't really afford to turn down a paying job.

I see it from my day job - graphic design. The really cool jobs come along about once every 5-10 years. The rest of the time I'm knocking out product brochures for animal health products or labels to go on plant pots. It's just a job. But I do it to the best of my ability move on the next one and enjoy the money.

For me music is far too important to me to treat it in the same way. Admittedly I have a slightly higher tolerance for music that I'm actually playing, but I've got to have an understanding of the genre in the first place and be working with other musicians who are open-minded enough to maybe let me try something musically unconventional for that particular genre. I believe that great music happens when musicians push the boundaries of a given genre not with technical ability, but by mixing in alternative ideas.

As a session player, you are ultimately replaceable. Live you'll be expected to pretty much reproduce what was on the recording, and in the studio you'll most likely either be following a chart or 'fleshing out' the synth bass from the songwriter's demo. Versatility is the key here, and it doesn't matter if you're only 95% there, the other 5% can be fixed after the session in ProTools.

I've been both a hired player and the one doing the hiring for different projects. When I've been asked to play, it's because it's my particular style of playing that has been wanted and not because I happen to have the correct instrument and the availability. When I've been hiring, for me the first thing is an understanding of the music. All the technical ability in the world won't help you if can't understand where I'm coming from musically and where to push the boundaries.



[quote name='6stringbassist' post='896738' date='Jul 16 2010, 06:01 PM']I totally agree with you. If you look at my Myspace page you'll see most of my top 10 'friends' are with a few exceptions versatile session or freelance players.[/quote]
But it means nothing unless you can prove that they asked to friend you...

Edited July 18, 2010 by BigRedX

[Doddy]

I don't get how anyone could describe many great session players as having 'no feel' or being 'characterless'. If these guys had no feel and just went through the motions,then they would have a very short career. The reason that they continue to work is because they bring a great feel to the work that they do. As far as being 'characterless',again I have to disagree. You can still listen to albums of totally different genres and go 'Hey,that's Will Lee' or whoever. It could be from their tone or their note choices,but ever player has their own personality that comes through on the instrument-the guys who are working can adapt their 'voice' to the situation,rather than force it upon the music.
As far as having a 'f***ing rock star to look up to',I didn't get into music that way. I grew up around great professional players that were doing everything from TV and radio to theatre work,so naturally these were the players that influenced me' since long before I started playing.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='897752' date='Jul 18 2010, 02:55 AM']Didn't you have a f***ing rock star to look up to?[/quote]
No. I've always preferred listening to music and playing music.

[risingson]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='897752' date='Jul 18 2010, 02:55 AM']Honestly when I read your post where it said "I always wanted to model myself on my favourite session players" it made me wonder why you started to play bass in the first place. For me it was a happy accident, but within a short while I'd latched on to players like Norwood Fisher, and people from my past like Bruce Foxton or Bedders or Bruce Thomas. I can't imagine ever thinking "I wish I was more like a characterless session musician".

Might sound harsh but really that's how I feel. I just find it weird that anyone ever felt driven to take up a musical instrument because they heard an unnamed contributor to an artist's record do his thing quietly in the background. Didn't you have a f***ing rock star to look up to?[/quote]

Well seeing as how you've presumed thats how I ended up taking up bass, the actual reason I did was by pure chance... I got asked to join a band, they needed a bass player so I got a bass for christmas when I was 12. I listened to Flea like a madman to begin with, but it was only doing so much for me, I wanted to further myself. Unconsciously all those Motown hits my dad used to listen to had a massive impact on me, so I wanted to play more stuff like that. The musicians behind all of that by your logic, characterless?

Don't know how you've concluded that session musicians are like this. Maybe you've been listening to the wrong music, but my guess is that's just an uneducated assumption. I don't mean to have a go of course, but it's completely backwards to think like people like James Jamerson, Anthony Jackson, or Tony Levin for sheer example are characterless. If you haven't heard of those guys then please do listen to them and try arguing your point again. I can respect a view saying it's not what you'd prefer to listen to, but to deny these people any credit by pawning their music off as characterless is to stifle your own creativity, I honestly believe this to be true.

Edited July 18, 2010 by liamcapleton

[JTUK]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='897756' date='Jul 18 2010, 07:11 AM']Steve Lukather. Great player, own sound and style, rock star, played on some of the greatest records around, member of Toto, legendary band.

I can't seem to think of a bass equivalent.[/quote]


Really...??

Marcus Miller.
Anthony Jackson..apart from the rock star bit.

I'd say Jimmy Haslip is instantly recognisable...or as far as SL would be.
Abe Laboriel

The first two are definitive, IMO...

Jeff Berlin
Tony Levin

Love Lukather's playing as well.

[thisnameistaken]

I have heard of those players but beyond their most famous output I can't listen to them because I don't know what records they're on.

If they've made a living doing this then presumably they're on hundreds of records? Most of them bad records?

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='JTUK' post='897920' date='Jul 18 2010, 11:45 AM']Really...??

Marcus Miller.
Anthony Jackson..apart from the rock star bit.

I'd say Jimmy Haslip is instantly recognisable...or as far as SL would be.
Abe Laboriel

The first two are definitive, IMO...

Jeff Berlin
Tony Levin

Love Lukather's playing as well.[/quote]

I see what you mean, but Toto were a much more mainstream act.

[Doddy]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='897925' date='Jul 18 2010, 11:47 AM']I have heard of those players but beyond their most famous output I can't listen to them because I don't know what records they're on.

If they've made a living doing this then presumably they're on hundreds of records? Most of them bad records?[/quote]

Yes they are on hundreds of records,but why the assumption that most of them are bad?

[BigRedX]

I'm more interested in the song than the players on the recording or in the live show.

So for the two bass players I admire, I love Mick Karn's work with Japan and Dali's car, but to me most of his solo stuff sounds like demos that are waiting for David Sylvian, or Peter Murphy to come along and turn them into proper songs.

The same with Peter Hook. Outstanding in Joy Division and New Order. In Revenge, Monaco and his latest musical venture not so much.

[Pete Academy]

I think it depends on when you started playing. These days there are very few bass heroes around, compared to years ago. When I started there were fusion players like Stanley and Jaco, who were considered superstars to people who weren't even bassists.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='897925' date='Jul 18 2010, 11:47 AM']I have heard of those players but beyond their most famous output I can't listen to them because I don't know what records they're on.

If they've made a living doing this then presumably they're on hundreds of records? Most of them bad records?[/quote]

Marcus has played on some of the greatest songs around, but because of his prolific work, there are bound to be a few turkeys in there.