Versatility or Stylistic?

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Mog' post='897504' date='Jul 17 2010, 07:08 PM']How many of the basslines in chart music are standout nowadays. How many make you sit up and think, Wow what an unusual place to play X, Y or Z. None.[/quote]
I wouldn't know. As far as I'm aware I don't listen to chart music - although if I did I probably wouldn't know it was chart music anyway. Also, I wouldn't expect every bassline (or even [i]many[/i] basslines) to stand out or make me sit up and think. I'd expect the bassline to be doing what works for the song and its arrangement. Which might well be I-V.

[quote name='Mog' post='897504' date='Jul 17 2010, 07:08 PM']Like I said in an earlier post, I've done the money thing. My first well paying gig as a session musician was at a blues/jazz and country music club, on some nights I'd have to cover bass, guitar and keys depending on the bill. I've seen what others do and how they approach different styles of music. From studios to clubs 99% of session musicians go through the motions. No feel, no personal touch. Just do the job, get paid. How long they last in the game is another thing Dave. Its not like theres an overabundence of quailty musicians. Those who last are the ones who do it well. The 1% I mentioned.[/quote]
While I bow to your greater experience as a session player, I'm slightly shocked at your negative attitude to other musicians. I'd say that, in fact, there is an adundance of quality musicians - that's certainly my experience. And, going by my observations of my son and his group of musician friends, there are two kinds, roughly speaking: the ones who can play only one style and the ones who are actually rounded musicians and can play in a variety of styles and desire to learn more.

[quote name='Mog' post='897504' date='Jul 17 2010, 07:08 PM']Do you really think artists in popular music, who have no input in the songwriting process, have a notion what a session musician is or is not doing? Or even care for that matter, Considering the bassist who lays the track in the studio is rarely the same one(s) who will playing on tour.[/quote]
I don't really understand what your point is. Does 'artists in popular music, who have no input in the songwriting process' mean 'young singers who happen to be marketable but aren't themselves songwriters'?

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Doddy' post='897933' date='Jul 18 2010, 11:52 AM']Yes they are on hundreds of records,but why the assumption that most of them are bad?[/quote]

Law of averages.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='897925' date='Jul 18 2010, 11:47 AM']I have heard of those players but beyond their most famous output I can't listen to them because I don't know what records they're on.

If they've made a living doing this then presumably they're on hundreds of records? Most of them bad records?[/quote]
Here's a Marcus Miller discography from Wikipedia to get you started:

Solo period (1982–present)
* 1983: Suddenly
* 1984: Marcus Miller
* 1993: The Sun Don't Lie
* 1995: Tales
* 1998: Live & More
* 2000: Best of '82-'96
* 2001: M² (2002 Grammy Award for Best Contemporary Jazz Album)
* 2002: The Ozell Tapes
* 2005: Silver Rain
* 2007: Free
* 2008: Marcus[3]
* 2008: Thunder (as SMV, with Stanley Clarke and Victor Wooten)

Luther Vandross Period
* 1983: "Busy Body"
* 1985: "The Night I Fell In Love"
* 1985: "'Til My Baby Comes Home"
* 1985: "It's over now"
* 1986: "I Really Didn't Mean It"
* 1986: "She Won't Talk To Me"
* 1986: "Give me the Reason"
* 1987: "Stop to love"
* 1987: "See Me"
* 1988: "Luther In Love - Megamix"
* 1988: "Any Love"
* 1989: "The Best Of Love"
* 1989: "Come back"
* 1991: "The Rush"
* 1991: "Power of Love / Love Power (Uno Clio & Colin and Carl Remix)"
* 1991: "Power of Love / Love Power"
* 1991: "Power of Love"
* 1993: "Never Let Me Go"
* 1993: "Heaven knows"
* 1995: "This is Christmas"
* 1995: "Power of Love / Love Power (The Frankie Knuckles Mixes)"
* 1996: "Your Secret Love"
* 1996: "I Can Make It Better"
* 1998: "I Know"
* 2001: "Luther Vandross"
* 2003: "Dance With My Father"
* 2007: "Love Luther"

David Sanborn period (1975–2000)
* 1977: Lovesongs
* 1980: Hideaway
* 1981: Voyeur
* 1981: As We Speak
* 1982: Backstreet
* 1984: Straight to the Heart
* 1987: Change of Heart
* 1988: Close-Up
* 1991: Another Hand
* 1992: Upfront
* 1994: Hearsay
* 1995: Pearls
* 1996: Songs from the Night Before
* 1999: Inside

Miles Davis period (1980–1990)
* 1981: The Man with the Horn
* 1981: We Want Miles
* 1982: Star People
* 1986: Tutu
* 1987: Music From Siesta
* 1989: Amandla
* 1991: The Complete Miles Davis at Montreux

The Jamaica Boys period (1986–1990)
* 1987: The Jamaica Boys
* 1989: The Jamaica Boys II: J. Boys

Film Scores
* 1990: "House Party" (featuring Kid & Play)
* 1992: "Boomerang" (featuring Eddie Murphy)
* 1994: "Above the Rim" (featuring Tupac Shakur)
* 1994: "A Low Down Dirty Shame" (featuring Keenan Ivory Wayans)
* 1996: "The Great White Hype" (featuring Samuel L. Jackson)
* 1997: "The Sixth Man" (featuring Marlon Wayans)
* 1999: "An American Love Story"
* 2000: "The Ladies Man" (featuring Tim Meadows)
* 2001: "The Trumpet of the Swan" (featuring Reese Witherspoon)
* 2001: "The Brothers" (featuring Morris Chestnut)
* 2001: "Two Can Play That Game" (featuring Vivaca Fox)
* 2002: "Serving Sara" (featuring Matthew Perry)
* 2003: "Deliver Us from Eva" (featuring L.L. Cool J)
* 2003: "Head of State" (featuring Chris Rock)
* 2004: "Breakin' All the Rules" (featuring Jamie Foxx)
* 2005: "King's Ransom" (featuring Anthony Anderson)
* 2006: "Save the Last Dance 2" (featuring Izabella Miko)
* 2007: "I Think I Love My Wife" (featuring Chris Rock)
* 2007: "This Christmas" (featuring Idris Elba)
* 2008: "Thunder" (featuring Stanley Clark and Victor Wooten)
* 2009: "Good Hair" (featuring Chris Rock as SMV)
* 2009: "Obsessed" (featuring Beyoncé Knowles)

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='897978' date='Jul 18 2010, 12:30 PM']Here's a Marcus Miller discography from Wikipedia to get you started:[/quote]

Cheers but I don't like his sound or his solo stuff, and I was never a fan of Luther Vandross either tbh!

I know he's a skilled player but I don't listen to songs because the bass player's good.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='898001' date='Jul 18 2010, 12:59 PM']Cheers but I don't like his sound or his solo stuff, and I was never a fan of Luther Vandross either tbh!

I know he's a skilled player but I don't listen to songs because the bass player's good.[/quote]
Ah, excellent, we agree.

[Doddy]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='897976' date='Jul 18 2010, 12:28 PM']Law of averages.[/quote]
In that case there are just as many good albums that these guys make. Let's be honest,even the best bands/artists,don't strike gold everytime.

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='898001' date='Jul 18 2010, 12:59 PM']Cheers but I don't like his sound or his solo stuff, and I was never a fan of Luther Vandross either tbh!

I know he's a skilled player but I don't listen to songs because the bass player's good.[/quote]

If I like a song or not,the bass player doesn't matter,but that doesn't make their contribution to the song any less significant. That Marcus discography wasn't even half the work that he has done,so it is highly likely that you will have heard him and not realised.It's the same with all of the great session players.They don't just do albums,they do loads of TV and movie soundtracks and jingle work too.

Incidentally,I know that you are a big fan of Fishbone-well, Randy Jackson played on their version of 'Freddy's Dead'.

[JTUK]

I used to buy albums just because of the line-up and I got some real gems this way.
I had a decent record store that would let me hear them first and it worked quite well.
Not sure I bought too many turkeys that way at all...just a few albums that didn't really stay the course. But, hand on heart, really not many at all.

It was, by a country mile, my most productive and useful buying season. It pretty well gave me the groundworks for ideas, techniques and stolen licks that lasts me to this day...at least 20 years later.

Popwell, Jaco, Stubenhaus, Graham, LJ, AbeL, Will Lee, Levin, Berlin, Clark, Freddy Washinngton, Randy Jackson, Byron Miller, Chuck R,
Lincoln Goines, Haslip, for starters..and of course, M Miller.
And that was pretty much the NYC stable of that time...from the top of my head.
Must a quite a few more if you add in West coast...........

[risingson]

Don't get me wrong, I do not listen to music for the bass lines, in fact I pay little attention to that sort of stuff anymore. My favourite artists are off the Warp label or BPitch (I'm a big electronica and house fan) and therefore have no bass in them whatsoever apart from samples. But the idea that session players are soulless is such misinformation. James Jamerson, the definitive bassist was a session guy who poured his heart and soul into making some of the most widely enjoyed popular music of all time.

[quote]I have heard of those players but beyond their most famous output I can't listen to them because I don't know what records they're on.

If they've made a living doing this then presumably they're on hundreds of records? Most of them bad records?[/quote]

Out of interest what DO you like listening to? Purely out of curiosity. It seems daft to make conclusions on players based on assumptions.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='liamcapleton' post='898134' date='Jul 18 2010, 03:54 PM']Out of interest what DO you like listening to? Purely out of curiosity. It seems daft to make conclusions on players based on assumptions.[/quote]

These days, mostly unsigned bands. They tend to have a bit more honesty and charm about them. And ultimately that's always what hooks me with bands; the feeling that they're being straight up with you and you're hearing the best music they can make at the moment, either played with vim or recorded as well as they can afford. I don't listen to slick pop, fusion, prog, metal, I've never seen a band in a stadium, I've never got an autograph, I suppose I don't have the same sense of occasion that some people have.

So when I see big names I think I just judge them on what they sound like to be honest.

[risingson]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='898158' date='Jul 18 2010, 04:20 PM']These days, mostly unsigned bands. They tend to have a bit more honesty and charm about them. And ultimately that's always what hooks me with bands; the feeling that they're being straight up with you and you're hearing the best music they can make at the moment, either played with vim or recorded as well as they can afford. I don't listen to slick pop, fusion, prog, metal, I've never seen a band in a stadium, I've never got an autograph, I suppose I don't have the same sense of occasion that some people have.

So when I see big names I think I just judge them on what they sound like to be honest.[/quote]

Honestly we are on the same page on certain aspects. I abhor the term fusion, do not listen to metal etc. and don't actually care about the level of musicianship involved in all things. The Rolling Stones for example, hardly 'proficient' musicians yet wrote 'Gimme Shelter', on of my all time favs, as well as countless other amazing tunes. The same you could argue with Bowie, The Velvet Underground, never technical masters of their instruments but amazing songwriters. Skill isn't synonymous with musicianship, I completely subscribe to that. Only had difficulty with you thinking session players are soulless... it works both ways, musicians shouldn't be disregarded because of their choice of career either.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='liamcapleton' post='898167' date='Jul 18 2010, 04:32 PM']Skill isn't synonymous with musicianship, I completely subscribe to that. Only had difficulty with you thinking session players are soulless... it works both ways, musicians shouldn't be disregarded because of their choice of career either.[/quote]

The premise of the thread is too basic though, that's how we end up in these scenarios where we're talking about players in simple terms and the generalisations don't fit. Look at a player like Flea and you might judge him on his playing on RHCP's most recent record which is very bland, or you might judge him on that Hotlicks video he did in the early '90s which is just dire and makes him look like a simplistic slapper, unimaginative and ignorant. But then listen to BSSM again and, well, he's pretty good on that isn't he. And he's played with other people and he's played trumpet with other people, so is he still a one trick pony?

Similarly, Marcus Miller seems to always play fusion or R&B and I'm judging him based on Luther Vandross singles from the '80s. From my angle he doesn't look that versatile, he's dipped into a couple of quite similar-sounding genres and played slap on everything, so how's he different from Flea?

It's all bollocks really isn't it. That's what I think. Someone might make a living as a studio musician and because of that they're considered more "versatile" than a guy who had some success in a pop band, but put them both in a situation where they have to cop half a dozen different styles and chances are they'll both sound uncomfortable and out of their depth unless it's music they enjoy and listen to. Actually put either Marcus Miller or Flea in my band and they would each sound bloody ridiculous I guarantee it.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='898182' date='Jul 18 2010, 04:58 PM']The premise of the thread is too basic though, that's how we end up in these scenarios where we're talking about players in simple terms and the generalisations don't fit. Look at a player like Flea and you might judge him on his playing on RHCP's most recent record which is very bland, or you might judge him on that Hotlicks video he did in the early '90s which is just dire and makes him look like a simplistic slapper, unimaginative and ignorant. But then listen to BSSM again and, well, he's pretty good on that isn't he. And he's played with other people and he's played trumpet with other people, so is he still a one trick pony?

Similarly, Marcus Miller seems to always play fusion or R&B and I'm judging him based on Luther Vandross singles from the '80s. From my angle he doesn't look that versatile, he's dipped into a couple of quite similar-sounding genres and played slap on everything, so how's he different from Flea?

It's all bollocks really isn't it. That's what I think. Someone might make a living as a studio musician and because of that they're considered more "versatile" than a guy who had some success in a pop band, but put them both in a situation where they have to cop half a dozen different styles and chances are they'll both sound uncomfortable and out of their depth unless it's music they enjoy and listen to. Actually put either Marcus Miller or Flea in my band and they would each sound bloody ridiculous I guarantee it.[/quote]

How do you know they would sound ridiculous? I'd brt Marcus especially could comfortably fit in. You've labelled him a slap merchant without even listening to what else he did.

[Doddy]

There are very successful studio musicians who specialise in certain areas,so being a studio musician does not,in its self,make you versatile. The kind of players I'm talking about are the ones who can go and swing their ass off one day,and rock out the next. That's what guys like Nathan East,Will Lee,Alex Al etc do all the time. Sticking in this country, you have players like Steve Pearce,Paul Westwood and Trevor Barry who have successful careers doing just that. These are the kind of players that I'm talking about. These guys sound great in any situation that they find themselves,whether they like that style or not isn't the issue.They always give 100% and Make it sound and feel great.

The big difference between Miller and Flea,for me,is that Miller paid his dues as a first call NY studio player doing 3 or 4 sessions a day before becoming the player he is now. Flea on the other hand made his name as a member of a very successful band,and as such,for most of his session work he is hired to do his thing and be 'Flea'.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='898197' date='Jul 18 2010, 05:15 PM']How do you know they would sound ridiculous? I'd brt Marcus especially could comfortably fit in. You've labelled him a slap merchant without even listening to what else he did.[/quote]

Good point.

[EssentialTension]

The way I took Doddy's original question was whether we would prefer to be 'stylistic' or versatile'.

I'm no session player nor even a very good bassist but I like playing lots of different styles of music. I'd be bored always playing one style. This isn't to say that there are no styles or genres I don't like - I can't abide metal, for example - but if someone says to me 'Hey, do you want to try playing some country?' then I'm up for it and I'll be looking into what it takes to play country bass. That's why I prefer versatility. Your experience may vary.

The twist to this is that, whatever style I play, I still have a tendency to sound like me.

[risingson]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='898182' date='Jul 18 2010, 04:58 PM']The premise of the thread is too basic though, that's how we end up in these scenarios where we're talking about players in simple terms and the generalisations don't fit. Look at a player like Flea and you might judge him on his playing on RHCP's most recent record which is very bland, or you might judge him on that Hotlicks video he did in the early '90s which is just dire and makes him look like a simplistic slapper, unimaginative and ignorant. But then listen to BSSM again and, well, he's pretty good on that isn't he. And he's played with other people and he's played trumpet with other people, so is he still a one trick pony?

Similarly, Marcus Miller seems to always play fusion or R&B and I'm judging him based on Luther Vandross singles from the '80s. From my angle he doesn't look that versatile, he's dipped into a couple of quite similar-sounding genres and played slap on everything, so how's he different from Flea?

It's all bollocks really isn't it. That's what I think. Someone might make a living as a studio musician and because of that they're considered more "versatile" than a guy who had some success in a pop band, but put them both in a situation where they have to cop half a dozen different styles and chances are they'll both sound uncomfortable and out of their depth unless it's music they enjoy and listen to. Actually put either Marcus Miller or Flea in my band and they would each sound bloody ridiculous I guarantee it.[/quote]

But you're assuming too much. Who knows whehers Marcus or Flea would sound ridiculous in your band? This is where we differ. I have no preconceptions of any music, I don't listen to music with a view to hating it immediately, same with bass players. I think similar views can only narrow your musical horizon. Nothing is as black or white as you make out.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='898197' date='Jul 18 2010, 05:15 PM']How do you know they would sound ridiculous? I'd brt Marcus especially could comfortably fit in.[/quote]

You're crazy. I know you have a big boner for Marcus Miller (and Doddy does too, even to the point of buying the same hat) but there's a reason why not everybody plays like him, and it's not because they can't.

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='898197' date='Jul 18 2010, 05:15 PM']You've labelled him a slap merchant without even listening to what else he did.[/quote]

Are you about to tell me he hardly ever plays slap and he's been [i]unfairly[/i] labeled as a slap merchant?

This is getting stupid.

[Doddy]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='898230' date='Jul 18 2010, 05:51 PM']You're crazy. I know you have a big boner for Marcus Miller (and Doddy does too, even to the point of buying the same hat)[/quote]

You've mentioned the hat thing a couple of times in the past,so I can only assume that it must really bother you,as once again it is totally irrelevant to the discussion.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='898230' date='Jul 18 2010, 05:51 PM']You're crazy. I know you have a big boner for Marcus Miller (and Doddy does too, even to the point of buying the same hat) but there's a reason why not everybody plays like him, and it's not because they can't.



Are you about to tell me he hardly ever plays slap and he's been [i]unfairly[/i] labeled as a slap merchant?

This is getting stupid.[/quote]

Firstly, you're being rather hattist. Secondly, he's got arguably the most revered slap sound in the bass world. The point is, he can play any style and generally has done, but people always focus on his slap playing.

Try doing more research into his track record. You might be surprised.

PS. Norwood Fisher doesn't give me a boner, just a semi.

Edited July 18, 2010 by Pete Academy

[steviedee]

I've played loads of styles of music I probably wouldn't listen to and I can honestly say I've always enjoyed it and put in 100% because playing music is fun. I suppose if I were doing it as a career I may become jaded, sadly I've never been in the position to have that problem.

I'd love to be more versatile I don't really listen to jazz much but I'd really like to be able to play it competently because it looks like a blast and would probably improve my appreciation of the genre.

Generally I think there is snobbery at both extremes which is a bit tiresome as there is plenty of room for differing views.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='steviedee' post='898258' date='Jul 18 2010, 06:22 PM']I've played loads of styles of music I probably wouldn't listen to and I can honestly say I've always enjoyed it and put in 100% because playing music is fun. I suppose if I were doing it as a career I may become jaded, sadly I've never been in the position to have that problem.

I'd love to be more versatile I don't really listen to jazz much but I'd really like to be able to play it competently because it looks like a blast and would probably improve my appreciation of the genre.

Generally I think there is snobbery at both extremes which is a bit tiresome as there is plenty of room for differing views.[/quote]

Good post.

Edited July 18, 2010 by Pete Academy

[risingson]

Don't know why I even rose to argue over this, one persons view in particular on the whole subject is so
misinformed. I'm happy to just resolve that a sensible discussion on the whole session player topic is impossible.

Back to the original point, I'm happy sitting on a groove or a tune and not overplaying. That's where I'm happy.

[Mog]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='898224' date='Jul 18 2010, 05:42 PM']The twist to this is that, whatever style I play, I still have a tendency to sound like me.[/quote]
I think thats one of the most important things for a musician. A personal style. It doesnt have to be standout. Just enough to be signature. Exactly what I expected of other musicians I had to play with,put your own stamp on it, but sadly it wasnt the case most of the time.

To clear my negativity, its just like any other job, if your co workers dont do their part someone else has to pick up the pieces. Maybe my standards were too high but if I went into a paying job I was damn sure to at least try and do my best. The same I expected from other session players. Its not a remark on the general public, just those who are professional, working musicians.

If I sounded up my own ass about it then apologies, it wasn't the case. I'm merely speaking from experience.

[quote]Do you really think artists in popular music, who have no input in the songwriting process, have a notion what a session musician is or is not doing? Or even care for that matter, Considering the bassist who lays the track in the studio is rarely the same one(s) who will playing on tour.[/quote]
This was in response to another post. I could read back through the thread but I couldn't be arsed

In general, the thread seems to have descended into a sh*t throwing match so I'm going to bow out with the words,
Sir Paul McCartney is the best bassist ever and ALL others pale by camparision.
I bid you all good day!

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Mog' post='898330' date='Jul 18 2010, 07:49 PM']I could read back through the thread but I couldn't be arsed [/quote]
Fair comment.

[JTUK]

Ha ha..I would say McCArtney is not even the best player in his touring bands and they are primarily guitarists.....but since his flame died with the Beatles, who cares..!!

Edited July 19, 2010 by JTUK