Combos and amps under 300w, why?

[Marvin]

As a general rule of thumb, if a member asks about purchasing an amp for gigging purposes then they generally get the reply that 300w is the minimum they should be looking at.
So why then are there so many combos, in particular, rated below and some well below the 300w rating? There are for example quite a few around the 100 to 150w mark. If this is under powered for gigging what would you use it for? They'd be too big for home practice. Or is it that you don't always need 300w? I see quite a few older amps and combos especially old Peavey TNT's and TKO's that kick out about 150w that the owner says has been well gigged and could knock a house down.

I'm getting confused. Please help my frazzled brain.

[derrenleepoole]

Well, 300 watts is a good overall rating that will do for almost any gig situation. If the gig is louder you use the amp as a backline and DI, if is quieter just turn down. Why have amps under that power rating? Good question... but the possible answer is not everyone needs that type of power. If you're an experienced enough player, you'll know what can and cannot work for you. So in this regard a pro amp like a Phil Jones Flightcase or Briefcase makes sense. Some players value, or require professional sound quality over volume, and where volume is concerned it's nothing that a house PA can't handle. I don't need a loud amp because I play with musicians who are competent enough not to play a stupid volumes, not everyone can or will do this. Yet I still have a 500 watt combo. Why, because it gives me headroom when needed. However, it's worth noting that power is nothing unless it can move air. So a 500 watt combo like mine will struggle against a 200 watt head with a 4x10 cab.

[cameltoe]

Different power for different situations.

As above, 300w will usually cover everything you need- any louder and you'll have PA support.

I get away with a 150w Trace Elliot combo for most of the pub gigs we play, it's more than loud enough.

We play a lot of outdoor gigs, marquees, hollow stages etc, and for that I'll take my big Hartke combo- The trace wouldn't keep up in those situations. It's not as if we play louder- more sound just 'escapes', so we need to compensate.

[alanbass1]

It really depends on the amp/speaker combination. A friend of mine has giged with his Trace Elliott 4x10 250 watt combo for 20 years and has no problems even at reasonably large bars/clubs.

Edited July 17, 2010 by alanbass1

[Alien]

[quote name='derrenleepoole' post='896847' date='Jul 16 2010, 08:42 PM']...it's worth noting that power is nothing unless it can move air.[/quote]

Nail --> Head

Stack up half a dozen 8x10s and you'll clear a pub with 50 Watts.

A

[derrenleepoole]

[quote name='Alien' post='896996' date='Jul 16 2010, 11:49 PM']Nail --> Head

Stack up half a dozen 8x10s and you'll clear a pub with 50 Watts.

A[/quote]

I think this is a valuable lesson that most bassists need to learn, and quickly. I could of saved a fortunate knowing this little, but often misunderstood principle.

[Marvin]

[quote name='derrenleepoole' post='896847' date='Jul 16 2010, 08:42 PM']Well, 300 watts is a good overall rating that will do for almost any gig situation. If the gig is louder you use the amp as a backline and DI, if is quieter just turn down. Why have amps under that power rating? Good question... but the possible answer is not everyone needs that type of power. If you're an experienced enough player, you'll know what can and cannot work for you. So in this regard a pro amp like a Phil Jones Flightcase or Briefcase makes sense. Some players value, or require professional sound quality over volume, and where volume is concerned it's nothing that a house PA can't handle. I don't need a loud amp because I play with musicians who are competent enough not to play a stupid volumes, not everyone can or will do this. Yet I still have a 500 watt combo. Why, because it gives me headroom when needed. However, it's worth noting that power is nothing unless it can move air. So a 500 watt combo like mine will struggle against a 200 watt head with a 4x10 cab.[/quote]

That's really pinpointed a number of things for me, thanks Derren.
A lot of the venues around my way are quite small, and bands can't be too loud anyway. A bassist in a band I know gigs with a Laney ProLinebacker 100 combo and says it's perfectly adequate. Knowing what will and won't work, as you say, seems to be the key.

[Mog]

A 150 watt amp will do most pub gigs. I usually, when asked by bassists starting out, recommend 2x10 150 watt combos. The problem is that even for pub gigs, guitarists insist on using 4x12 cabs. Thats a lot of air moving compared to a 1x15 bass combo. We insist that every band runs through our 2x12 guitar cabs when we are doing gigs in the local. The bass amp is either what the band want to use or my 150 watt TE and Ampeg 4x10 if its a band with 2 guitars or the same head with a GK 2x10 for bands with one guitar. Going from 150 to 300 watts wont give you much of a volume increase so i prefer to even it out in terms of how much air is being pushed. That way the only thing that needs to be mic'd is the kick.
I dont buy into this idea of 1000+watt bass heads. Theres FOH to get your bass to the right volume in larger venues and monitors if you need to hear yourself. Max of 450-500 watts is all you need IMO.

[cameltoe]

[quote name='Alien' post='896996' date='Jul 16 2010, 11:49 PM']Nail --> Head

Stack up half a dozen 8x10s and you'll clear a pub with 50 Watts.

A[/quote]


[quote name='derrenleepoole' post='897203' date='Jul 17 2010, 12:18 PM']I think this is a valuable lesson that most bassists need to learn, and quickly. I could of saved a fortunate knowing this little, but often misunderstood principle.[/quote]

True, but who wants to be carrying 6 cabs in and out of the Nag's Head on a Friday night?

Isn't it also a strain on the amp to try and drive too many speakers?

Yes the watts need to move air, but practicality is key too.

Watts in terms of sheer volume can vary from brand to brand too.

A loud 150w 2x10 combo should be fine for most venues. Add another 2x10 for the larger gigs.

As stated above, anything more than 300w and you'll be using FOH anyway- I've never had the Hartke over 4 on the master, even when we've started mic'ing drums. After that it's DI all the way.

I don't get the whole 1000w thing either.

[Cat Burrito]

I'd echo the above sentiments, I've done several pubs with 100w / 150w & 99% of them mic up if it's bigger. You will occasionally come across one that doesn't & I recently played Manchester where the drummer & guitarist complained afterwards that my sound wasn't cutting through. We played Sheffield the next night, got mic'd up & the soundman commented afterwards that my small rig gave a great tone.

I guess the odd gig being a bit lacklustre is the by off for not breaking your back.

[pantherairsoft]

Bear in mind not everyone has a full band. If it was you and an acoustic guitar, no srums… would you really want a large loud amp… or something small. Different music, different venues, different sound men!

Also bear in mind that Wattage doesn't always relate side by side with different amps. If you play through a 150W EBS Drome combo, you will find that it is actually LOUDER (and cleaner at loud volumes) than many 300W amps… Its down to the technology used. The different being that the Drome is £800 odd for 150W combo!

Shep

[ShergoldSnickers]

If the cab is well designed and the speaker(s) efficient, then an arbitrary figure of 300W may be more than ample. Or even 200W. Or 150W. It depends what load the amp is driving as well, and how well the power supply copes with sudden demands for pushing current on sudden transients. A weak power supply won't be able to give any dynamic 'slam' before crapping out, despite the output stages being able to deliver more if it were available. Turn on the taps and the reservoir is rapidly emptied.

Then there is the question of what sort of tone are you after? A bass heavy, fundamental-rich tone that envelopes an audience, or an aggressive mid and low treble rich tone that pierces the live mix that way? They have very different demands on an amp and speaker combination. Additionally, we then have the small matter of how manufacturers arrive at the quoted output figures...

There are so many variables in all this that giving one figure will immediately draw exceptions. As a very general rule of thumb, setting a 300W figure may actually have some use, so long as you realise it will only be broadly statistically true rather than universally applicable.

I have an Eden Nemesis NC115 combo rated at 250w into 4 ohms, driving an 8 ohm 15" driver plus treble unit. It copes with anything but larger pubs and clubs on its own, but starts to struggle if the rest of the band start playing at levels that are getting uncomfortable*, but for someone playing softer genres, this combo would cope with a much wider range of venues unassisted. [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=93810&hl=eden+nemesis+NC115"]The combo is for sale by the way![/url]

In order to cover the any eventuality thing, I've just acquired a second-hand Barefaced Big One and Eden Traveler 550 rig. I'm also running a Boss GT-10B FX unit, and when the octave divider is on, I need an amp that can cleanly deliver the low frequencies generated. The combo could cope really well with generating the low frequencies, but not at the levels we occasionally get to - the amp starts to run out of steam, hence the bigger boiler that is the new amp, and a cab capable of handling the output from the Boss FX.

Funny subject this bass amplification...


* Uncomfortable for some of the slightly older amongst us

[ironside1966]

Sometimes I think you have more chance of judging the volume of an amp by its colure then its wattage.
There are so many factors involved
Impedance
How accurate the wattage really is. Amp

Cab
Impedance
The ability of the speaker to turn watts in to power
The cone excursion
Surface area of speakers
Acoustics, placement and coupling
The player
The tone
Deep bass takes a lot of power and cone movement to produce.
A clean or distorted, a deep mid scoop bass will take more power than a mid distorted bass tone.
Low tuning takes more power.
A player who finds his own musical space will cut through better than one who just doubles the guitar or keyboard.
I am not a fan of over the top rigs, the amount of players with large rigs who get the tit on because the FOH engineer have to tell them to turn down.

[derrenleepoole]

[quote name='cameltoe' post='897861' date='Jul 18 2010, 10:52 AM']True, but who wants to be carrying 6 cabs in and out of the Nag's Head on a Friday night?[/quote]

I certainly don't, that's why I have a small setup. But understanding how to get more volume without power is a valuable lesson, and I think that's the key. Also you're right, as are others, many factors including efficiency of speaker design, room size, band professionalism etc all play a part in getting the sound right and at the right volume.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='cameltoe' post='897861' date='Jul 18 2010, 10:52 AM']True, but who wants to be carrying 6 cabs in and out of the Nag's Head on a Friday night?[/quote]

Hi.

[quote name='cameltoe' post='897861' date='Jul 18 2010, 10:52 AM']Isn't it also a strain on the amp to try and drive too many speakers?[/quote]

No.

[Alec]

[quote name='alanbass1' post='896894' date='Jul 16 2010, 09:27 PM']A friend of mine has giged with his Trace Elliott 4x10 250 watt combo for 20 years and has no problems even at reasonably large bars/clubs.[/quote]

That friend could have been me! I've done exactly that, and the combo is loud enough for any situation.

That said, I've just moved on to an RH450 head. The main benefit of super high power, especially in the solid-state world, is having buckets of headroom - you don't *have* to run everything on 11...

[Ancient Mariner]

A key part is likely that people starting out will probably be buying cheaper kit that uses less expensive and lower efficiency speakers, probably in inefficient cabs too and being driven by an amp that is slightly struggling to reach it's listed output. A nicely made 100W or 150W amp through a great cab will likely be at least as loud as a cheap 350W half stack, but will cost 2-5 times as much. It's mostly about cost of entry, since few new players would justify buying top end kit from the off.

[BIG.J]

I have used many rigs and used to use a huge Peavey Megabass Head with a 215 Peavey Cab which realy could bring a house down when i used to gig in my old 3 piece Hendrix Tribute. Then i played the same venues with an old Peavey TKO 75 and was told the sound was the best i had so far...Lol.

I also have a 25+ year old TNT 130 which has been gigged at every venue my old mn played and then passed to me as new in the flightcase... These were very loud and still are..

I am now in a 5 Piece Genesis Tribute and need something that can handle De-tuning and using Octave FX's etc. My current set up is the old SWR ST220 head and SWR Henry 8x8 Cab. Now these are matched, 220w @ 4ohms is megga with this setup?

You have all made some realy good points and it realy is about managing everything just right. If i wasnt stood next to a huge Phil Collins type kit with one of the loudest drummers i have ever played with i would probabilly use even less..

J.

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='Marvin' post='896835' date='Jul 16 2010, 08:31 PM']As a general rule of thumb, if a member asks about purchasing an amp for gigging purposes then they generally get the reply that 300w is the minimum they should be looking at.[/quote]

That's because it's a safe and simple answer to give. It covers most common eventualities. To be able to give a more accurate answer, they'd need more information than it is possible to convey in a simple posting - they'd need to actually go to a gig.

If you're doing "small" gigs with PA support and a restrained drummer, then you wouldn't need more than about ~100W for stage volume. If you had no drummer at all, then you could get away with less. But then you also have to bear in mind that different amps have different voicings, and the perceived volume may differ for the same power output.

Asking how much power you need for a gigging amp is like asking how much RAM you need in your computer. No-one's going to take your exact specifications and then say 512MB, because theoretically that's all you need for surfing the web etc. They're just going to say 4GB and have a nice day.

S.P.

[HoweDy]

I have a Peavey TNT 150 and it has done my proud playing at various gigs of various sizes ranging from playing at a very small primary school prom (yes i know, how ridiculous) to the local music venues that are NOT small. I think to be safe though 300w amps cover everything.

The reason why i got a peavey tnt 150 is because it was all i could afford and i knew it wasn't a bad combo so £80 well spent considering i got a new and improved speaker free from a sound engineer that owed my dad one

[Alec]

Also, asking "how many watts do I need?" is completley pointless without knowing the efficiency of the speakers concerned. This is hugely significant in PA kit, and it makes far more sense to look at the actual SPL that can be achieved, and which is required.

Buying an amp based on "how many watts" it has makes as much sense as buying one based on "how many kilos" it weighs. (Actually, that's a significant part of the deal these days! but doesn't give any clue as to performance)

[Wil]

I think my 1900 watt power amp might be a touch excessive, but it does mean I can evicerate a donkey at 300 paces using just one cab.

[Adrenochrome]

But it is a pretty decent guide.
I've played outdoor gigs, rallies and large clubs in huge rooms and my ~300 watts (into enough speaker area, obviously) has always been enough.