Neo tone??? Now proved to be no such thing!

[bobpalt]

I giigged last night with my TC RH450/210/212 rig, which I have used a few times now and have been very pleased with, but used a brand new Yamaha BB2024x bass for the first time.

At the sound check, I plugged everything in, and first impressions were that it sounded really good. I was looking forward to the gig with my new bass, but halfway through the sound check, our sound guy, who is a pro and has fabulous ears, came up to me and said I sounded awful, and was drowning out the rest of the band. At first, I thought he meant the volume, but he said no, that wasnt the problem, it was that "blasted low/mid sound that all neodymium speakers have". He reckoned that the new bass was emphasizing the problem, which he hadnt worried about too much before when I used my Status or Zon, but this was a step too far.

After a lot of fiddling with the controls, he gave up, and said we would have to live with it, but as my ears are shot away and I rely on him a fair bit for his judgement, I have to admit I had absolutely no idea what he was talking about! Do all neodymium speakers have this characteristic, for a deafy like me just what was he talking about, and more importantly, what on earth can I do about it? I have no wish to replace my RH450 head (I have two of them, one as a spare), but have no problem replacing the cabs if that would solve the "issue". Would maybe a couple of Berg 112 cabs with traditional magnets help, or can anyone suggest alternatives? I admit that I enjoy the portability factor of the TC gear, and the fact that the top cab is at ear level, but they may have to be sacrificed. Money is not a major issue, I just want to get it right this time!

Edited July 23, 2010 by bobpalt

[Musicman20]

Hi

Strange thing is, those TC cabinets are ceramic loaded cabinets, not neo!

Certain neo cabinets do have a 'honkiness' to them. I think it depends on what brand and what amp/bass you use as well as some may emphasise that tone or even add to it.

Markbass cabs have a peak in the mids and the Berg AE line have aggressive mids as well.

[whynot]

I understand the TC cabs don't have neo drivers.

[whynot]

Musicman20 just beat me to it.
The TC cabs don't have that honkiness associated with Neos IIRC.

Edited July 18, 2010 by whynot

[chris_b]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='897915' date='Jul 18 2010, 11:42 AM']....Strange thing is, those TC cabinets are ceramic loaded cabinets, not neo!....[/quote]
So this sound guy doesn't actually know as much as you thought he did!!

Maybe a GRAMMA would help? Sometimes a bass/amp/cab/stage/room just don't add up.

[JTUK]

Don't know..... but his 'sympton and cause' seemed miles apart.

Tell him you have had the cabs changed and now have ceramics and see what he says..
I haven't done enough work with NEO against Ceramics but can say I used both in an SWR cab. The NEOS's had a good all round sound but I was never convinced the porting was matched with the change of chassis.
Sound-wise, not much in it AFAICR, for a 2x10 cab.

I would think you would to have the same cab ported per speaker specifically and run them side by side to know conclusively..

Other things like room, stage etc can be a factor, so simple recall from memory isn't good enough, I'd suggest

[bobpalt]

Well, ***ger me! Even I thought that they were Neos! I used a Genz 212 Neox before, which he said he also didnt like and sounded similar...................

The look on his face said that he really did find the sound painful (maybe its him that has the hearing problem with a certain frequency?), so I guess if its not a Neo thing, there is something else he doesnt like about the sound of my last 2 cabs. Could it be lightweight cab construction maybe, emphasising a particular frequency? He describes it as a "noise that isnt particularly loud, but it masks everything else", whatever that means. As I said, I trust his ears, even though he might not know everything about bass speakers (he is a guitarist after all!), so I am keen to put him out of his misery.

Two small, heavyish 12" (or 1x 15") cabs would seem a possibility?

Bob

[bobpalt]

[quote name='chris_b' post='897935' date='Jul 18 2010, 11:52 AM']So this sound guy doesn't actually know as much as you thought he did!!

Maybe a GRAMMA would help? Sometimes a bass/amp/cab/stage/room just don't add up.[/quote]

Last nights gig was on an open air railway station platform to 3-400 folks! Not sure if a plinth would have helped on a concrete base?

Bob

[chris_b]

[quote name='bobpalt' post='897967' date='Jul 18 2010, 12:22 PM']....I am keen to put him out of his misery....[/quote]
I wouldn't change your cabs based on one person's opinion. How about trying a different bass first? Looking at your list I think you've got at least half a dozen basses to choose from that could improve the sound.

[pantherairsoft]

Oddly my Neo cabs (EBS) are a little mid-shy, and to get any honky-ness I have to EQ mid into them! The total opposite of your soundchap's takes on Neo speakers! Maybe my ears are shot as well.

From whats been said it kinda sounds like he's an old-schooler who knows, loves and trusts the big fat warm old speaker sound… most modern stuff sounds sooooooo different to the old Peavy, Trace, Orange tone that most engineers face day to day and become familiar.

I've had a few engineers tell me how 'odd' the EBS Fafner sounds… which is crazy, as its clearly the most amazing amp ever made ;-) Its just 'unfamiliar to them'.

If he hears too much mid. turn the mid down! Don't change your rig!

[Prime_BASS]

Well ok with deduced the guy was wrong. I assume he was trying to sort your sound for FOH through a PA.

In my limited experience the sound guy can do whatever with your sound regardless of what the cab sounds like.

Also it would be easy to cancel out the nonlinear with an EQ pedal or if you have a complex eq on the amp.

Anyway all I have heard from those tc cabs is everything but honk.

[Wil]

I think most people would be hard pressed to tell the difference between a neo and ceremic speaker in the real world. Maybe just a bad combo of bass and amp, or a boomy stage? Try another bass first though, easiest thing to change.

[Musicman20]

I know its all part and parcel of the entire build, but every neo speaker Ive heard does have a slightly different tone, and the only one that came really close to ceramic was the Tecamp M212.

Thats including the Berg AE line that, IMO, does have a peak in the aggressive part of the mids. Even the tone gurus on talkbass talk about the aggression. Then they wont have anything said against it! But, if you have a cab thats 'slightly' shy in mids, they will give the poor thing hell. Both mid shy and mid hump means you have to EQ slightly, so I see no problem. I did think the AE line mids were pretty damn aggressive though, and I imagine a Precision with rounds with a bit of grit would be overkill through that cab setup.

Again, its all about compromise. Im awaiting to see the next generation of neo speakers before I look into lightweight cabs again.

I must admit, to the OP, that I thought due to the weight that the TC cabs were neo. They are VERY light for a ceramic loaded cabinet. For example, the Berg AE212 is 55lbs approx, and the TC RS 212 is 49 lbs approx. The Berg being neo and the TC being ceramic. Admittedly that Berg AE212 will be a very good cabinet, but Id have expected a little less weight.

I also tried a few Markbass cabs, and they are light and well made, but again there is a slight mid hump.

If you are having problems with the mids, just find the centre freq. thats causing the problem on your RH450, and dial it out a little

Edited July 18, 2010 by Musicman20

[redstriper]

Get a second opinion - saying that your sound is awful just before you go on is not what you want to hear and blaming the material used for the driver's magnet is ridiculous.
If he can't get a decent sound from your gear, maybe you need a new sound engineer.

[essexbasscat]

Is it the low mids or the higher mids that are causing the problem ? or is it the higher end of the lower frequencies ?

Have a look at the Markbass Sa450 manual (downloadable) for a nice discussion of the mids and lows topic.

T

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='bobpalt' post='897894' date='Jul 18 2010, 06:30 AM']he said no, that wasnt the problem, it was that "blasted low/mid sound that all neodymium speakers have"... I have to admit I had absolutely no idea what he was talking about![/quote]
That makes two of you. He had absolutely no idea what he was talking about either.
A knowledgeable sound man would know which frequencies were too much, and would simply pull them down in the mix.

Edited July 18, 2010 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[bobpalt]

[quote name='chris_b' post='897981' date='Jul 18 2010, 12:30 PM']I wouldn't change your cabs based on one person's opinion. How about trying a different bass first? Looking at your list I think you've got at least half a dozen basses to choose from that could improve the sound.[/quote]

I was hoping that the new Yammy was going to be the best bass I own, as it sounded unreal at Bass Direct (and with the leds installed, cost not far off £3,000....). My plan was to buy another one as a spare and sell off a few from the collection, but I will need to find out if the bass is contributing to the sound issue before I burn any bridges.

Bob

[dan670844]

I have a Ashdown Mini 48 and after the usual burn in of the drivers its a great cab, superb warm sounding cab and perfectly balanced not at all Honky, a great Cab shame they don't make it anymore.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='redstriper' post='898056' date='Jul 18 2010, 01:59 PM']Get a second opinion - saying that your sound is awful just before you go on is not what you want to hear and blaming the material used for the driver's magnet is ridiculous.
If he can't get a decent sound from your gear, maybe you need a new sound engineer.[/quote]
+1.

[ironside1966]

[quote name='bobpalt' post='898120' date='Jul 18 2010, 03:38 PM']I was hoping that the new Yammy was going to be the best bass I own, as it sounded unreal at Bass Direct (and with the leds installed, cost not far off £3,000....). My plan was to buy another one as a spare and sell off a few from the collection, but I will need to find out if the bass is contributing to the sound issue before I burn any bridges.

Bob[/quote]

If you trust the sound guy and he gets good results and if he has a lot of experience then trust his judgement he may not know why but he probably can tell when something his wrong. Give the set up a chance over a few gigs because strange things an happen to the sound in some venues.

[ironside1966]

[quote name='bobpalt' post='898120' date='Jul 18 2010, 03:38 PM']I was hoping that the new Yammy was going to be the best bass I own, as it sounded unreal at Bass Direct (and with the leds installed, cost not far off £3,000....). My plan was to buy another one as a spare and sell off a few from the collection, but I will need to find out if the bass is contributing to the sound issue before I burn any bridges.

Bob[/quote]

If you trust the sound guy and he gets good results and if he has a lot of experience then trust his judgement he may not know why but he probably can tell when something his wrong. Give the set up a chance over a few gigs because strange things an happen to the sound in some venues.

[SisterAbdullahX]

[quote name='redstriper' post='898056' date='Jul 18 2010, 01:59 PM']Get a second opinion - saying that your sound is awful just before you go on is not what you want to hear and blaming the material used for the driver's magnet is ridiculous.
If he can't get a decent sound from your gear, maybe you need a new sound engineer.[/quote]

My thoughts exactly.

[escholl]

[quote name='redstriper' post='898056' date='Jul 18 2010, 01:59 PM']Get a second opinion - saying that your sound is awful just before you go on is not what you want to hear and blaming the material used for the driver's magnet is ridiculous.
If he can't get a decent sound from your gear, maybe you need a new sound engineer.[/quote]
[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='898105' date='Jul 18 2010, 03:08 PM']That makes two of you. He had absolutely no idea what he was talking about either.
A knowledgeable sound man would know which frequencies were too much, and would simply pull them down in the mix.[/quote]

Both of these.

[ironside1966]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='898105' date='Jul 18 2010, 03:08 PM']That makes two of you. He had absolutely no idea what he was talking about either.
A knowledgeable sound man would know which frequencies were too much, and would simply pull them down in the mix.[/quote]


Not always that simple EQ can only go so far with room correction. also the offending Frequencies where from the bass speaker not the PA.
Amps sound different the further away you are from them. If the walls, stage or anything-resident frequency is n the lower mid starts vibrating sympathetically this could be the cause.
Could be standing waves so the sound is louder in certain places but quieter in others.

[chris_b]

At this price I’d expect the bass to sound great flat. In my experience it's easy to destroy the tone of any bass by using too much EQ. I'd put all the EQ on the amp and bass to flat, (sorry if you've already done this!) and take it from there, a little at a time.