Neo tone??? Now proved to be no such thing!

[machinehead]

I can't imagine how anyone could hear the difference in sound due solely to the material used in a magnet of a speaker?

I'd like to be educated if indeed it is possible though.

Frank

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='machinehead' post='901465' date='Jul 21 2010, 11:33 PM']I can't imagine how anyone could hear the difference in sound due solely to the material used in a magnet of a speaker?

I'd like to be educated if indeed it is possible though.

Frank[/quote]

The magnet change means other things could be improved (from an engineering perspective) in speaker construction, so the may well be a tone difference associated, down to other changes, but usually they will be beneficial although you have to adjust enclosures to match.

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='898105' date='Jul 18 2010, 03:08 PM']That makes two of you. He had absolutely no idea what he was talking about either.
A knowledgeable sound man would know which frequencies were too much, and would simply pull them down in the mix.[/quote]

+1 million

The Sound engineer is talking BS.

[machinehead]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='901468' date='Jul 21 2010, 11:40 PM']The magnet change means other things could be improved (from an engineering perspective) in speaker construction, so the may well be a tone difference associated, down to other changes, but usually they will be beneficial although you have to adjust enclosures to match.[/quote]


Yes, but you're clouding the issue. Can people tell the magnet material by listening to the sound of the cabinet, all other things being the same?

If they can, I'll be amazed.

I'm an electrical engineer of 3o+ years experience and I've learned to be cynical about anything that can't be proved by the science. Feelings rarely cut it in my experience.

But again, I stand to be proved wrong - and I mean it. Show me how the magnet material can be heard differently from another magnet material.

Frank

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='machinehead' post='901507' date='Jul 22 2010, 12:40 AM']Yes, but you're clouding the issue. Can people tell the magnet material by listening to the sound of the cabinet, all other things being the same?

If they can, I'll be amazed.

I'm an electrical engineer of 3o+ years experience and I've learned to be cynical about anything that can't be proved by the science. Feelings rarely cut it in my experience.

But again, I stand to be proved wrong - and I mean it. Show me how the magnet material can be heard differently from another magnet material.

Frank[/quote]

All things aren't the same though, so a neo speaker will sound different. Speakers with neo magnets have various other parameters that are different due to the designs having advanced to use the new technology. They can disperse heat more readily for example, as that is always a benefit and the small magnet lends itself to more effective heatinking, with corresponding less power compression. I'm not sure of the mechanics of it, but they also seem to lend themselves to greater xmax, guessing due to magnet field strength but its not really in my understanding, so less distortion at high power levels. It might not be the magnet type itself affecting the sound, but the magnet choice is affecting factors which affect the sound, all part of the speaker, giving a neo speaker a different sound.

If you mean all things the same with the box they are mounted in, then at least one of them will be in the wrong box. That is probably another thing you'll hear wrong with neo magnets, they don't suit box designs that are being held over from ceramic drivers. Box is designed around the driver, just like the driver is designed around the magnet. Design the box right and you'll probably have more lows and less speaker breakup, plus the speaker breakup will probably sound different due to the construction changes, so again, it will sound different.

You might be wrong to blame the neo bit, but that doesn't mean a difference isn't there.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='machinehead' post='901507' date='Jul 21 2010, 07:40 PM']Show me how the magnet material can be heard differently from another magnet material.

Frank[/quote]It can't. The same argument was proffered when AlNiCo replaced field coils, and then when ceramic replaced AlNiCo. And it's just as fallacious now. Flux is flux.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='901522' date='Jul 22 2010, 01:00 AM']All things aren't the same though, so a neo speaker will sound different. Speakers with neo magnets have various other parameters that are different due to the designs having advanced to use the new technology. They can disperse heat more readily for example, as that is always a benefit and the small magnet lends itself to more effective heatinking, with corresponding less power compression. I'm not sure of the mechanics of it, but they also seem to lend themselves to greater xmax, guessing due to magnet field strength but its not really in my understanding, so less distortion at high power levels. It might not be the magnet type itself affecting the sound, but the magnet choice is affecting factors which affect the sound, all part of the speaker, giving a neo speaker a different sound.

If you mean all things the same with the box they are mounted in, then at least one of them will be in the wrong box. That is probably another thing you'll hear wrong with neo magnets, they don't suit box designs that are being held over from ceramic drivers. Box is designed around the driver, just like the driver is designed around the magnet. Design the box right and you'll probably have more lows and less speaker breakup, plus the speaker breakup will probably sound different due to the construction changes, so again, it will sound different.

You might be wrong to blame the neo bit, but that doesn't mean a difference isn't there.[/quote]

This I agree with, and this seems to make perfect sense.

I can definitely hear a difference. Ive tried countless neo and ceramic cabs, and yes they are all different apart from one set which yes, they were the same size but tuned different, but the neo DEFINITELY 100% sounded different. Even when I emailed Bergantino he said the ceramic will always have a certain characteristic that players like, despite the fact you can get very close.

I imagine the next generation will convince me a little more to get a lighter cabinet.

[bobpalt]

An update from last night.

Our sound guy, who is also a friend, came to my house last night, and we set up a test rig, using my RH450 into the TC212 cab, RH450 Classic into TC210, an Ashdown combo and Orange Bass Terror into TC112 cab. We swapped and changed the leads over so we tried every combination, and used a selection of basses (Yamaha BB2024x, Roscoe Century, Fender Jazz), and the results were very interesting.

We went into the 450s parametric eq and tried everything we could, but at the end of the day, using the Yamaha, and to a much lesser extent the Roscoe, there was certainly a low mid boost, where the volume seemed to jump quite dramatically when you hit a note in the region of D. Sliding from C to D on the A string was like turning the volume control up. This was the note that the sound guy said was drowning out the others at last weeks gig, and spoiling my tone. It was still there using the Roscoe but much lessened, and absent with the Jazz, where all levels seemed ok. Changing to the Orange amp using the TC cabs didnt make things any better, but there was no problem whatsoever with the Ashdown combo, so the conclusion he drew was that the TC cabs have a low-mid emphasis that is exaggerated by the powerful pickups on the new Yamaha.

I have bought a new 15" cab from a different maker which is being delivered tomorrow, to test the theory, so I will update as soon as I can, but at the moment, I cant use the Yamaha with my current rig as it really is loud on the A string. I will try changing the pick up hights, but doubt if that will help, and have a couple of different string sets to try out to see if there maight be a problem there.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='901629' date='Jul 22 2010, 09:18 AM']but the neo DEFINITELY 100% sounded different.[/quote]

I think it is important to say 'neo speaker' as it isn't the 'neo' part that makes the difference, it is the construction of the speaker around it. As Bill says, flux is flux, but there are a whole bunch of other properties that are a whole bunch of other properties a speaker will have, and will have changed.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='901725' date='Jul 22 2010, 06:00 AM']there are a whole bunch of other properties that are a whole bunch of other properties a speaker will have, and will have changed.[/quote]
There are a number of properties that [i]may[/i] be changed with neo, because the smaller motor structure allows it. But they don't have to be changed. Transducer engineers are quite capable of making neo drivers that precisely duplicate the response of ceramics; the fact that for the most part they don't do so is because they don't [i]want[/i] to. My friends in the engineering dept. at Eminence are totally pleased with neo because it allows them to do things they always wanted to do with ceramic but couldn't, the main difference being longer throw capability, allowing more low frequency output.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='bobpalt' post='901700' date='Jul 22 2010, 10:26 AM']Changing to the Orange amp using the TC cabs didnt make things any better, but there was no problem whatsoever with the Ashdown combo, so the conclusion he drew was that the TC cabs have a low-mid emphasis that is exaggerated by the powerful pickups on the new Yamaha.[/quote]

Yes, even on the various youtube clips of the TC gear I'venoticed this to be their overwhelming characteristic (easily audible on KJung's TC head comparison with the Markbass gear). It's a sound that, as someone who used to do sound quite often, I instinctively shy away from because it is damn difficult to control live and muddies everything up.

And if the cab sound is giving this then there's nothing you can do with FoH. I often used to wish people would understand there's nothing you can do to suck sound out of a space before they start blaming a crap engineer for a band's bad stage sound.

[redstriper]

This thread entitled ''Neo tone ???' actually has [u]nothing[/u] to do with neo tone.
Your sound engineer is blaming your poor sound on the 'neo tone', but you don't have any neo speakers.

The only conclusion, however you dress it up is that your sound engineer is WRONG and 'neo tone' is totally irelevant.


OK I feel better now.

[bobpalt]

[quote name='redstriper' post='901978' date='Jul 22 2010, 02:56 PM']This thread entitled ''Neo tone ???' actually has [u]nothing[/u] to do with neo tone.
Your sound engineer is blaming your poor sound on the 'neo tone', but you don't have any neo speakers.

The only conclusion, however you dress it up is that your sound engineer is WRONG and 'neo tone' is totally irelevant.


OK I feel better now.

You are quite correct, but at the time I made the original posting, we both thought that the TC cabs had neo speakers. The problem I have is obviously nothing to do with a specific neo "tone", and I thank everyone who has responded for pointing me in the right direction. I now know that its more of a TC characteristic thing.

Bob[/quote]

[machinehead]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='901550' date='Jul 22 2010, 03:04 AM']It can't. The same argument was proffered when AlNiCo replaced field coils, and then when ceramic replaced AlNiCo. And it's just as fallacious now. Flux is flux.[/quote]

Thanks for the reply Bill. I fluxing knew it.

Frank

[Musicman20]

[quote name='bobpalt' post='901700' date='Jul 22 2010, 10:26 AM']An update from last night.

Our sound guy, who is also a friend, came to my house last night, and we set up a test rig, using my RH450 into the TC212 cab, RH450 Classic into TC210, an Ashdown combo and Orange Bass Terror into TC112 cab. We swapped and changed the leads over so we tried every combination, and used a selection of basses (Yamaha BB2024x, Roscoe Century, Fender Jazz), and the results were very interesting.

We went into the 450s parametric eq and tried everything we could, but at the end of the day, using the Yamaha, and to a much lesser extent the Roscoe, there was certainly a low mid boost, where the volume seemed to jump quite dramatically when you hit a note in the region of D. Sliding from C to D on the A string was like turning the volume control up. This was the note that the sound guy said was drowning out the others at last weeks gig, and spoiling my tone. It was still there using the Roscoe but much lessened, and absent with the Jazz, where all levels seemed ok. Changing to the Orange amp using the TC cabs didnt make things any better, but there was no problem whatsoever with the Ashdown combo, so the conclusion he drew was that the TC cabs have a low-mid emphasis that is exaggerated by the powerful pickups on the new Yamaha.

I have bought a new 15" cab from a different maker which is being delivered tomorrow, to test the theory, so I will update as soon as I can, but at the moment, I cant use the Yamaha with my current rig as it really is loud on the A string. I will try changing the pick up hights, but doubt if that will help, and have a couple of different string sets to try out to see if there maight be a problem there.[/quote]


Hi

Strange that the Roscoe and more so the Yamaha is causing the problems. They might need a tweak or two? Obviously very high end gear so Id ask the store to check it out as I use just normal Rays/Ps/Js and so far, as much as I realise there is a lot of low mid in the TC rig, its never been a problem.

Hopefully you are close to getting it how you wanted

[bobpalt]

My 15" cab was delivered today. Its actually a Dr Bass 15", with an 8" speaker and a tweeter, and after a long listening session. Nirvana! With the RH450 amps it sounded superb. No problems whatsoever, and it also sounded good with the Orange Bass Terror. Obviously, the TC cabs must have a low/mid emphasis that I, with my shot away ears didnt notice, but bat ears, our sound chap, could.

I will use the new cab for the next gig and see what the rest of the band think, and will let you know.

Bob

[Mr. Foxen]

That one is neo? Potential for hilarity.

[bobpalt]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='902578' date='Jul 22 2010, 11:45 PM']That one is neo? Potential for hilarity.[/quote]

One would think so, but I have moved onwards and upwards from the original title of the thread. I realize now that what was causing the problem with my rig was obviously not the "neo sound" that we thought it might have been at the beginning, but a more specific "TC cab" sound. The Dr Bass cab is neo, but doesnt exhibit the same characteristics as the TC cabs (oddly enough, my single 112 TC cab seems immune as well). After giving the 15" cab a good thrashing last night, the sound guy (who is also a fabulous bass player), couldnt stop beaming, and said he could have carried on playing all night. Problem solved!

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='bobpalt' post='902931' date='Jul 23 2010, 10:42 AM']One would think so, but I have moved onwards and upwards from the original title of the thread.[/quote]
Perhaps you should change the thread title to 'Actually not neo tone after all'.

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='bobpalt' post='902931' date='Jul 23 2010, 10:42 AM']After giving the 15" cab a good thrashing last night, the sound guy (who is also a fabulous bass player), couldnt stop beaming, and said he could have carried on playing all night. Problem solved![/quote]

Is he aware of his error in blaming the problem on neodymium magnets? I hope he consumed a bite or two of the proverbial humble pie.

S.P.

[chris_b]

Hi Bob. Glad you're getting your sound sorted out.

[LawrenceH]

Can't really see the point of jumping on the sond engineer here - sounds like his ears are working fine, and he correctly attributed the sound to the TC cab - just incorrectly in terms of ascribing it to neo speakers, when presumably he'd noticed a similar tone before on some true neos. The important thing is they diagnosed the cab as the issue, and it sounds like it's sorted now.

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='903221' date='Jul 23 2010, 02:22 PM']Can't really see the point of jumping on the sond engineer here - sounds like his ears are working fine, and he correctly attributed the sound to the TC cab - just incorrectly in terms of ascribing it to neo speakers, when presumably he'd noticed a similar tone before on some true neos. The important thing is they diagnosed the cab as the issue, and it sounds like it's sorted now.[/quote]

Okay, perhaps I was going a bit far. But I still think it's important for him to have his prejudices corrected.

S.P.

[bobpalt]

[quote name='Stylon Pilson' post='903229' date='Jul 23 2010, 02:27 PM']Okay, perhaps I was going a bit far. But I still think it's important for him to have his prejudices corrected.

S.P.[/quote]

He actually surprised himself, and is just happy that things are better now. I think maybe he is a bit "old school" when it comes to tone, with whatever prejudices against modern equipment that may bring to the table. You should have seen how amazed he was when he first heard my Shuttle 6!!

Bob

[redstriper]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='903221' date='Jul 23 2010, 02:22 PM']Can't really see the point of jumping on the sond engineer here - sounds like his ears are working fine, and he correctly attributed the sound to the TC cab - just incorrectly in terms of ascribing it to neo speakers, when presumably he'd noticed a similar tone before on some true neos. The important thing is they diagnosed the cab as the issue, and it sounds like it's sorted now.[/quote]

He did not say anything about the cab AFAIK - he said "blasted low/mid sound that all neodymium speakers have".
That statement is simply wrong, it may have prompted a pontless change of driver and certainly would put anybody off neo drivers.
It's the kind of blanket BS that gives sound engineers a bad name and if it wasn't for this forum the OP would still believe it.