Capacitors, ceramic or poly?

[Dom in Dorset]

I'm about to order the electrics for my latest project, I know nothing about the subject, happy to follow a wiring diagram.
CH guitars do wiring kits for certain basses and guitars, they do two for Jazz bass, one with a ceramic capacitor one with poly- what difference does it make (if any?)

[dan670844]

[quote name='Dom in Somerset' post='898088' date='Jul 18 2010, 02:50 PM']I'm about to order the electrics for my latest project, I know nothing about the subject, happy to follow a wiring diagram.
CH guitars do wiring kits for certain basses and guitars, they do two for Jazz bass, one with a ceramic capacitor one with poly- what difference does it make (if any?)[/quote]


Let me know how you get on, I am going to have a go with this in a few weeks!

[Ou7shined]

Ceramic are you traditional guitar type. I don't know which "poly" ones they are referring to but....
Polyester caps are general, all purpose cheap jobs.
Polystyrene are very accurate caps used in test equipment etc.. susceptible to solvents etc.
Polypropylene are caps best suited to high quality audio applications.
Polycarbonate again good for audio and have good temperature handling qualities.

Edited July 18, 2010 by Ou7shined

[Dom in Dorset]

they would appear to be polyester, i'll go for ceramic.
Thanks.

[escholl]

I would definitely not go with ceramic. Polyester film (which is what these likely are) may be relatively inexpensive but they're also good for audio, and are the ones most commonly used in decent quality audio circuits along with polystyrene, polypropylene, and metallised polyester.

[BanditSid]

Ceramic capacitors are designed to be used for supply decoupling, where you want to remove any high frequency noise on a supply line, they were never designed to pass quality audio. The best choice for audio is polypropylene, you will get most values you need for guitar use in a polyprop capacitor.

[Phil Starr]

Go for the polyester or poly propylene, Don't use ceramics

[4 Strings]

Isn't someone going to say 'if you want it to sound like a Jazz bass you'll need to use similar components and so use ceramic'?

The OP has a good question, like you I know nothing about this sort of thing. How about asking the supplier people to see why they offer the choice and what they recommend for your use?

Capacitors are certainly important to hi-fi enthusiasts, how important they are for guitars, others are already advising.

[Al Heeley]

How many people crank down the tone control (passive bass) to remove some of the top end? That's all the cap will do, there's subtle frequency response differences in different manufacture method caps, that you can detect with an oscilloscope but I'll be darned if I can hear any difference when I'm bashing out Jam numbers in a pub gig.

There, I've said it. 90% baloney spoken about the benefits of sprague orange drop caps and overpriced nos components. All you're doing is cutting out a bit of the treble.

[ducks for cover]

[BB2000]

[quote name='BanditSid' post='898336' date='Jul 18 2010, 08:00 PM']Ceramic capacitors are designed to be used for supply decoupling, where you want to remove any high frequency noise on a supply line, they were never designed to pass quality audio. The best choice for audio is polypropylene, you will get most values you need for guitar use in a polyprop capacitor.[/quote]

What a load of crap.

Either will be fine.

[stevie]

I do so enjoy the intelligent exchange of views and information here on Basschat.

Edited July 22, 2010 by stevie

[Dom in Dorset]

As it turns out I accidentaly bought one of each!!! As it's for my twin neck, I'll use them both, I'll let you know whar happens.

[Al Heeley]

Basschat is great in that it caters well for both sets of demographic; those that think it doesn't make a difference and those that do.
Most of the latter school speak sense from the theoretical point of view, now the real issue is one of [i]significance[/i]. Does it make a significant difference to the human ear.
Be interested to hear your field test.

I spent an afternoon once fitting a P-bass with a 3-way switch that brought in a range of different value (and type) caps on my tone knob.
I found no difference whatsoever (in my ears) to the tonal quality as I backed off the treble - it all sounded muddy once it got past 1/2 way. In theory it should have changed the amount of treble cut-off as well as influencing the ramp of the pot, but I'm pretty sure you'd only really see this with an oscilloscope or spectrum analyser. It all sounded really mushy so I went back to playing my EBMM Stingray.

[johnnylager]

Just changed the stock Jap ceramic for a high voltage Sprague Orange Drop poly and wow, the poly one is so much bigger. And orangeyer.

Early Gibsons and Fenders (50s - 60s) used 400v caps as they were left over from amp builds. Apparantly.

Edited July 23, 2010 by johnnylager

[Al Heeley]

That's great for those bass players with Synasthesic tendencies, I think the oranginess of the bass tones can add a lot to their vintage appeal.

[escholl]

[quote name='Al Heeley' post='902935' date='Jul 23 2010, 10:46 AM']Basschat is great in that it caters well for both sets of demographic; those that think it doesn't make a difference and those that do.
Most of the latter school speak sense from the theoretical point of view, now the real issue is one of [i]significance[/i]. Does it make a significant difference to the human ear.[/quote]
Well, in [i]theory[/i], a ceramic cap approximates a near perfect form of capacitance, having almost no inductance and a low ESR. In practice, however, you would be hard pressed to find any low-mid to high end audio equipment, professional or otherwise, that uses them regularly in the audio signal path -- and even then, in the case of older equipment, they will often be C0G or NP0 (high stability, generally 1% tolerance).

Now, I'm the last person who's going to say you need a particular brand of capacitor to sound a certain way (12 quid for a paper in oil? hmm maybe not...) but in my experience, working on and listening to audio equipment, if it were me I would choose not to have ceramics in the signal path. There are simply better sounding alternatives. The only reason they were likely used in the original basses and guitars is because they are, in fact, so cheap.

Having said that, I am a man of science, and without having done my own measurements am somewhat uncomfortable with the idea that any benefits could merely be merely psychological. Just because an entire industry is behind an idea, doesn't mean it's true -- just look at the fallacy that is "breaking in" speakers, not to mention the new "neo tone". I want to believe there's no difference with caps, but I keep hearing one. *shrug*

[4 Strings]

I'll go along with escholl with 2 comments. If you've ever heard a Fender Telecaster, Fender-Rhodes piano, even a Fender Precision bass guitar ('course you have!), you'll come to the conclusion the designer/champion behind these instruments was a genius and knew a bit about sound. If he wanted to cut treble and a ceramic cap did it in the wrong way then I'm convinced he'd have used something else.

I suppose someone might be able to tell the sonic difference, if there is one, but would it actually be better?

Secondly, I have no experience from which to pull, but I thought the breaking in of speakers was to make allowances in performance expectation for the improvement in suppleness of the suspension, settling of the cone etc. The Barefaced man appears to believe speakers improve significantly after some use, he appears to know a bit too and is likely to have had the opportunity for that experience. It's also said that amps improve as they warm up, my Audiolab hifi amp definitely does so, definitely warmer, deeper bass. Can't explain it though.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='escholl' post='903237' date='Jul 23 2010, 02:31 PM']Having said that, I am a man of science, and without having done my own measurements am somewhat uncomfortable with the idea that any benefits could merely be merely psychological. Just because an entire industry is behind an idea, doesn't mean it's true -- just look at the fallacy that is "breaking in" speakers[/quote]

Not wishing to derail this thread but speaker break-in is very real and easily measurable. I've experienced it, in VERY obvious fashion, with a Deltalite 2510 II. Note that Eminence (and other manufacturers) specify their speakers after 'conditioning' to account for this phenomenon. Makes me wonder about judging pristine new cabs in shops.

Re caps, I seriously doubt I could hear/care about the difference, but would be interested to A/B and see!

[ShergoldSnickers]

I took a Naim pre-amp (an old third-hand 80s one guys, I'm not made of money ) in for repair and they replaced some of the capacitors with Tantalum ones. What are the benefits of using Tantalum? I've done the obligatory look-up and see how they get them to work by sintering powder of different grades, just curious as to their properties compared with other capacitor types.

[stevie]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='908052' date='Jul 28 2010, 12:00 PM']Not wishing to derail this thread but speaker break-in is very real and easily measurable.[/quote]
This, of course, depends on how you define speaker break-in.

[Al Heeley]

[quote name='ShergoldSnickers' post='908173' date='Jul 28 2010, 01:36 PM']I took a Naim pre-amp (an old third-hand 80s one guys, I'm not made of money ) in for repair and they replaced some of the capacitors with Tantalum ones. What are the benefits of using Tantalum? I've done the obligatory look-up and see how they get them to work by sintering powder of different grades, just curious as to their properties compared with other capacitor types.[/quote]
Tant caps have high tolerance (accurate value) and are (mostly) polar so cannot always be used to replace standard non-polar types. They can blow quite easily of you get them too hot whilst soldering or if you have the polarity the wrong way round.
Cheap ceramic caps can be +/- 10% of the printed value, which tbh makes little diff on a bass guitar tone pot.

[url="http://www.engineersedge.com/instrumentation/tantalum_capacitors.htm"]http://www.engineersedge.com/instrumentati..._capacitors.htm[/url]
Fascinating stuff indeed.

Edited July 28, 2010 by Al Heeley

[escholl]

[quote name='4 Strings' post='907944' date='Jul 28 2010, 10:44 AM']I'll go along with escholl with 2 comments. If you've ever heard a Fender Telecaster, Fender-Rhodes piano, even a Fender Precision bass guitar ('course you have!), you'll come to the conclusion the designer/champion behind these instruments was a genius and knew a bit about sound. If he wanted to cut treble and a ceramic cap did it in the wrong way then I'm convinced he'd have used something else.

I suppose someone might be able to tell the sonic difference, if there is one, but would it actually be better?[/quote]
I don't know what the state of capacitor technology was in the 50's, but ceramic may have been his only viable choice at the time in terms of cost/performance, a tradition which likely carried on due to the very low-cost of ceramic caps. There is an interesting article [url="http://www.skguitar.com/SKGS/sk/CapTest/CapTest.htm"]here [/url]which seems to come to the conclusion the difference is present, but likely negligible. Personally, I would choose polyester/polypropylene, but that is likely just my prejudice from years of working with audio equipment.

[quote name='4 Strings' post='907944' date='Jul 28 2010, 10:44 AM']It's also said that amps improve as they warm up, my Audiolab hifi amp definitely does so, definitely warmer, deeper bass. Can't explain it though.[/quote]
As semiconductors conduct differently at different temperatures, the amps are biased for optimum performance at their approximate operating temperature, instead of room temperature. This is why they sound better as the amp heats up.

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='908052' date='Jul 28 2010, 12:00 PM']Not wishing to derail this thread but speaker break-in is very real and easily measurable. I've experienced it, in VERY obvious fashion, with a Deltalite 2510 II. Note that Eminence (and other manufacturers) specify their speakers after 'conditioning' to account for this phenomenon. Makes me wonder about judging pristine new cabs in shops.

Re caps, I seriously doubt I could hear/care about the difference, but would be interested to A/B and see![/quote]
The differences between a "broken in" speaker and one which is not, are in nearly all cases less than the difference between two of the same speakers -- that is to say the difference is less than the manufacturing tolerance for that speaker. If you are able to provide accurate and repeatable measurements to the contrary, than please do so, I would love to see it. However, all data that I have seen to date indicates "speaker break in" to be a psychoacoustic phenomenon, and more likely has to do with your ears getting used to the way that speaker sounds, or simply just the individual hearing what they expect to hear.

Edit: Slightly further research brought up mention of a paper published by David Clark and available through AES, which discusses measurable "speaker break-in" that occurs in the first few seconds of use, after an extended period of non-use. This is likely not the sort of "break-in" you were thinking of however.

Edited July 28, 2010 by escholl

[4 Strings]

[quote name='stevie' post='908226' date='Jul 28 2010, 02:29 PM']This, of course, depends on how you define speaker break-in.[/quote]

This is one way:

[ShergoldSnickers]

[quote name='Al Heeley' post='908272' date='Jul 28 2010, 03:17 PM']Tant caps have high tolerance (accurate value) and are (mostly) polar so cannot always be used to replace standard non-polar types. They can blow quite easily of you get them too hot whilst soldering or if you have the polarity the wrong way round.
Cheap ceramic caps can be +/- 10% of the printed value, which tbh makes little diff on a bass guitar tone pot.

[url="http://www.engineersedge.com/instrumentation/tantalum_capacitors.htm"]http://www.engineersedge.com/instrumentati..._capacitors.htm[/url]
Fascinating stuff indeed.[/quote]
Excellent - thanks.

[BB2000]

[quote name='Al Heeley' post='908272' date='Jul 28 2010, 03:17 PM']Tant caps have high tolerance (accurate value)[/quote]

Not true.