Music theory.

[MacDaddy]

Quite simply there aren't any.

In an exam situation you will be expected to do things a certain way - ie 4 part harmonies - but in an exam you are following instruction rather than rules (Bach never bothered he frequently used consecutive 5th and octaves).

Rules of harmony? None. A major chord uses certain notes but that is not a rule. Change the notes you get a different chord. Certain keys have certain notes, but knowing them doesn't stop you playing out of key or using unresolved dissonances.

What music theory can do is give you an understanding of it all.



BTW. There are many wonderful people and musicians who cannot read music and do not know about music theory.

[Doddy]

Sorry,but I don't get your point.

"A major chord uses certain notes but this is not a rule". Yes it is. A major chord is made up of scale degrees 1,3,5- That's a rule. Like you said yourself ,changing notes gives you different chords,but a major chord is always built from the same intervals. So yes,there are rules.
I'm all in favour of breaking the rules,but you can't break what you don't know.

Yes,there are many great players who don't know any theory whatsoever,but there are an equal number who know exactly what they are doing.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='898306' date='Jul 18 2010, 07:21 PM']Quite simply there aren't any.[/quote]
So your rule is 'no rules'?

... and +1 on what Doddy said.

[keeponehandloose]

A major chord has to have certain notes to actually BE a major chord,if it doesnt have those notes then it is something else.
I think you are trying to kid yourself into thinking that you dont need theory.It wont work.
BTW.Understanding theory and the ability to read music are two different things.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='898306' date='Jul 18 2010, 07:21 PM']Certain keys have certain notes[/quote]
Wouldn't it be better to say that certain scales in certain keys have certain notes?

Not certain notes but [i]any[/i] of the twelve notes occurs in any and every key and the note would then be named as an interval in relation to the key note e.g. in the key of C, Db would be a minor second, D would be major second, Eb would minor third, etc., up to B would be major seventh. So certain keys don't have certain notes, all keys have all the notes.

Or am I getting it wrong and I need to learn more theory?



Edited for inability to follow rules of spelling.

Edited July 18, 2010 by EssentialTension

[Marvin]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='898334' date='Jul 18 2010, 07:55 PM']Wouldn't it be better to say that certain scales in certain keys have certain notes?

Not certain notes but [i]any[/i] of the twelve notes occurs in any and every key and the note would then be named as an interval in relation to the key note e.g. in the key of C, Db would be a minor second, D would be major second, Eb would minor third, etc., up to B would be major seventh. So certain keys don't have certain notes, all keys have all the notes.

Or am I getting it wrong and I need to learn more theory?



Edited for inability to follow rules of spelling.[/quote]
Is that when you start calling them those funny other names, when you start knoblin' about with minor 2nds and augmented 5ths? All though I think I might be wrong.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Marvin' post='898346' date='Jul 18 2010, 08:16 PM']Is that when you start calling them those funny other names, when you start knoblin' about with minor 2nds and augmented 5ths? All though I think I might be wrong.[/quote]
Yes, I believe, as a rule, in C, the augmented 5th would be G# and, as my son said to me only the other day, 'augmented 5ths are awesome'.

[Marvin]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='898350' date='Jul 18 2010, 08:24 PM']Yes, I believe, as a rule, in C, the augmented 5th would be G# and, as my son said to me only the other day, 'augmented 5ths are awesome'. [/quote]

I was thinking more anodyne or mix-amitosis or whatever they are

[simon1964]

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='898306' date='Jul 18 2010, 07:21 PM']A major chord uses certain notes but that is not a rule. Change the notes you get a different chord.[/quote]

Your comment here is self contradictory. Yes a major chord uses certain notes. But if I change the "E" in a C major chord to "Eb" I get a different chord (C minor). But the first chord is C Major and the second C minor precisely because the rules say so. Unless I am completely missing your point!

We all use music theory every time we play. Even if you simply play the root note you are using theory, otherwise you wouldn't know what the root note is.

Edited July 19, 2010 by simon1964

[Bilbo]

If I believe there aren't any rules, I don't have to learn them. Then I can go to the pub or play on my Wii instead of studying. Great! I believe you. Thanks for the get out....

MUSTANG SAAALLLLYYYYYY!!!

[TKenrick]

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='898306' date='Jul 18 2010, 07:21 PM']Rules of harmony? None.[/quote]

I wish someone had told me about this [i]before[/i] I'd invested considerable time and effort studying music


I don't quite know whether to laugh, cry or spend my next gig playing b9s on every major chord.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='TKenrick' post='898859' date='Jul 19 2010, 12:57 PM']I wish someone had told me about this [i]before[/i] I'd invested considerable time and effort studying music[/quote]
Don't worry, you can make money by teaching other unsuspecting and aspiring musicians what they don't need to know.

[Marvin]

Should I cancel the lesson I've just arranged for Tuesday evening with a tutor? He was saying that he goes through all that theory stuff, but if it's all a load of codswallop then perhaps I shouldn't bother.

[purpleblob]

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='898306' date='Jul 18 2010, 07:21 PM']Quite simply there aren't any.[/quote]



I'm stunned - I don't actually think I can add anything constructive to this thread that hasn't already been said, but I just had to register my stuunned state

[TKenrick]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='898878' date='Jul 19 2010, 01:12 PM']Don't worry, you can make money by teaching other unsuspecting and aspiring musicians what they don't need to know. [/quote]

I'm sure my students won't be surprised to hear that everything I've taught them is irrelevant

Maybe I should just print off some TABs and teach them Chili Peppers songs. That would be a valid waste of my time and their money, surely?

[Wil]

You really don't need to know the rules in order to break them. Our western music rules are pretty different to those followed by carnatic musicians in southern India - which one's are correct? The only real rules are set by physics - harmony and dissonance.

[quote name='Bilbo' post='898754' date='Jul 19 2010, 11:29 AM']If I believe there aren't any rules, I don't have to learn them. Then I can go to the pub or play on my Wii instead of studying. Great! I believe you. Thanks for the get out....

MUSTANG SAAALLLLYYYYYY!!![/quote]

I get the feeling you missed punk happening.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Wil

[bigjohn]

[quote name='Wil' post='899213' date='Jul 19 2010, 06:14 PM']You really don't need to know the rules in order to break them. Our western music rules are pretty different to those followed by carnatic musicians in southern India - which one's are correct? The only real rules are set by physics - harmony and dissonance.[/quote]


Aye. Cultural innit. Things are harmonious not only because of physics but because they're in a familiar pattern of interval.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Wil' post='899213' date='Jul 19 2010, 06:14 PM']You really don't need to know the rules in order to break them.[/quote]

How can you break the rules if you don't know what those rules are to begin with?

You don't have to learn what the rules are if you don't want(although I don't get why you wouldn't
want to),but you are then not really in a position to break them either. Sure,you can play whatever
you want,but often people who do this are just following the rules,albeit unknowingly. It may also have
taken them longer to that point.
If you understand the rules,it is far easier to move away from them and try new things.

[GonzoBass]

I've always taught my students that the first rule of music is-
There are no rules.

Let us all remember,
what we are discussing here are "theories"
(however commonly accepted).






Love this thread, BTW!

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='Doddy' post='899237' date='Jul 19 2010, 06:31 PM']How can you break the rules if you don't know what those rules are to begin with?

You don't have to learn what the rules are if you don't want(although I don't get why you wouldn't
want to),but you are then not really in a position to break them either. Sure,you can play whatever
you want,but often people who do this are just following the rules,albeit unknowingly. It may also have
taken them longer to that point.
If you understand the rules,it is far easier to move away from them and try new things.[/quote]


Hence most punk music sitting around in a 3-chord trick, with harmonies that stray not too far from 3rds and 5ths.
While Jazz and Prog on the other hand (where they learned the rules first) are more often than not a little more interesting on the rule-breaking front.

[Wil]

If you don't know what the rules are to begin with, then you're not bound by them at all. You don't have to know you're breaking the rules to break them, you just do it. The only thing that matters is whether the microtonal masterpiece that came to you in the middle of the night while playing slide guitar with a shoe actually sounds good, and that's all subjective anyway.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Dave Vader' post='899253' date='Jul 19 2010, 06:46 PM']Hence most punk music sitting around in a 3-chord trick, with harmonies that stray not too far from 3rds and 5ths.
While Jazz and Prog on the other hand (where they learned the rules first) are more often than not a little more interesting on the rule-breaking front.[/quote]

Exactly.


[quote name='Wil' post='899254' date='Jul 19 2010, 06:46 PM']If you don't know what the rules are to begin with, then you're not bound by them at all. You don't have to know you're breaking the rules to break them, you just do it. The only thing that matters is whether the microtonal masterpiece that came to you in the middle of the night while playing slide guitar with a shoe actually sounds good, and that's all subjective anyway.[/quote]

Funnily enough most 'untrained' players who think that they are breaking rules,really aren't.(See the punk comment above)

Knowing stuff doesn't mean you are bound to it,instead it gives you greater options. The only thing that bounds you is your
own limitations.
I know it's a cliche but 'knowledge is power'.

[shiekaa]

At the end of the day, you don't NEED music theory, you will know what sounds good by ear and intuition if you practice enough.

I don't think people should knock TAB so much, it gets alot of people starting out to play bass who will one day become great bass players, not everyone can afford a tutor.


+1 to "these are music theories"

[Wil]

[quote name='Doddy' post='899264' date='Jul 19 2010, 06:55 PM']Exactly.

Funnily enough most 'untrained' players who think that they are breaking rules,really aren't.(See the punk comment above)

Knowing stuff doesn't mean you are bound to it,instead it gives you greater options. The only thing that bounds you is your
own limitations.
I know it's a cliche but 'knowledge is power'.[/quote]

I would imagine most untrained players probably wont care if they're breaking the rules or not and will instead concentrate their efforts on creating music that sounds good.

[XB26354]

... just as every musician tries to do, regardless of what theory knowledge they have.
I tend to equate it to an artist with colours on their palette. Some very fine artists can produce stunning works with just red, blue and green. However, it would be a dull world if no artists knew how to paint with all the other colours. There obviously is a place for musicians with no formal knowledge, just as there is for those that have learned the academic side (which tends to appear in most walks of life, including the arts).