Music theory.

[Low End Bee]

I just looked at the circle of fifths on wikipedia. My brain is hurting already.
Maybe I'll dig out the bass scales book I bought 6 years ago and looked at once before making a 'pfft' noise and stashing it away on the book shelf.

[thepurpleblob]

[quote name='Low End Bee' post='908194' date='Jul 28 2010, 01:46 PM']I just looked at the circle of fifths on wikipedia. My brain is hurting already.
Maybe I'll dig out the bass scales book I bought 6 years ago and looked at once before making a 'pfft' noise and stashing it away on the book shelf.[/quote]

Yeh - that was probably a bad plan. That page is a bit jargon heavy. Try something like [url="http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/how-to-read-the-circle-of-fifths.html"]http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/how-...-of-fifths.html[/url]

I don't want to put you off

[XB26354]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='901890' date='Jul 22 2010, 01:52 PM']I think there is some confusion here about the meaning of 'rules'. Not all 'rules' have the same kind of status, so:

[u]An example of a ‘rule’ that cannot be broken:[/u]
When the notes C-E-G (or any three notes of the same relationship) are played together it is, as a ‘rule’, called a major triad. Can this ‘rule’ be broken? No. Let’s say you played C-Eb-G instead, then you haven’t broken the ‘rule’, you have merely not played a major triad. You have played what, as a ‘rule’, we call a minor triad. No ‘rule’ is broken. Imagine you decided to rename the major triad as ‘happy triad’ and the minor triad as ‘sad triad’. Is then a ‘rule’ broken? Well, perhaps, but it is only the naming ‘rule’ that is broken, the underlying ‘rule’ about the musical relationship of the notes is not broken. These kinds of ‘rules’ are descriptive ‘rules’. You can play whatever you like, but a major triad remains a major triad, and there is a clear and standard ‘rule’ that we call it so. This is a convention we use to describe music.

[u]An example of a ‘rule’ that can be broken:[/u]
As a ‘rule’, concert pitch is A=440Hz. You can break this ‘rule’ by tuning your instrument to A=435Hz. If all your musical colleagues do the same, then you will have broken the ‘rule’ by setting up a new ‘rule’ (i.e. A=435Hz) – so the ‘rule’ is broken in a sense but only by the setting up of a replacement ‘rule’. However, if I tune to A=435Hz while my colleagues remain fixed to the ‘rule’ of A=440Hz then I am most definitely breaking the ‘rule’ and my music will likely suffer for it. Nonetheless I am free to break this ‘rule’ if I care to do so. This is a freedom we have to make music.[/quote]

I am aware of the different meanings of the word rule, none of which apply to what you have written. In the end it is a discussion about semantics relating to the word rule, which is about as pointless as the original post.

[thepurpleblob]

[quote name='XB26354' post='908286' date='Jul 28 2010, 03:31 PM']I am aware of the different meanings of the word rule, none of which apply to what you have written. In the end it is a discussion about semantics relating to the word rule, which is about as pointless as the original post.[/quote]

Except that calling music theory 'rules' might be off-putting to some people. It's just stuff - factual information.

[Beneath It All]

[quote name='XB26354' post='908286' date='Jul 28 2010, 03:31 PM']I am aware of the different meanings of the word rule, none of which apply to what you have written. In the end it is a discussion about semantics relating to the word rule, which is about as pointless as the original post.[/quote]
...............+1

[GonzoBass]

[quote name='Low End Bee' post='908080' date='Jul 28 2010, 01:22 AM']So where's a good, non boring, place for a non reading, no theory, never had a lesson, self taught chap to start?
I'm sure I must know some rules as I know when a note sounds 'wrong'.
I'm interested to see what a bit of knowledge could do to my playing even at my advanced age.[/quote]
I'm soo glad you asked!


Since you apparently are familiar with the notes on the neck,
know where your "Natural Half Steps" occur
(between B/C and E/F)
and hopefully know the "Enharmonic Spellings"
(Ab is also G#, etc.)
I'd suggest starting with just the Major and Minor Scales.

Then I'll trick you into exploring the Modes.
Here's how I get my student's curiosity peaked;

Let's begin with the "A Minor Scale".
Shall we?
I usually choose this scale because it contains no sharps or flats.

So, this scale is created by simply playing from Root A up to an Octave A.
Thus-
A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A
and of course back down-
A, G, F, E, D, C, B, A

Notice the overall mood or feeling this scale provides when you end on the Root and Octave.
I call it "Serious".
(You'll see why in a moment)

Now, let's try using those [u]same[/u] [u]notes[/u]
but we will create the "C Major Scale"
by starting on the Root C and play up to the Octave C.
Thus-
C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C
and again back down-
C, B, A, G, F, E, D, C

Notice how the mood or feeling of these [u]same[/u] [u]notes[/u] will change
when you relate them to a different Root and Octave?
I call this "Happy".
(Most nursery rhymes are written in Major for this reason)

Since these two scales are created from the same note choices,
"A Minor" and "C Major"
are called "Relative" as in "Relative Major/Relative Minor".

Try playing your two "Relative Scales" back to back-
"A Minor" then "C Major".

Can you hear how the Minor Scale sounds more "Serious"
and the Major Scale sounds more "Happy"
when you compare them?

This was done by relating those same notes to a different root,
similar to "changing the backdrop" behind them.

Now!

What do you suppose would happen if I were to say,
start on a Root B and play these [u]same[/u] [u]notes[/u] up to and Octave B?
What would these note choices sound like with THAT "backdrop"?
Try it-
B, C, D, E, F, G, A, B
B, A, G, F, E, D, C, B
and let me know what adjective YOU would use to describe the mood they provide then.

I'd call it "Angry"
but Western Music Theory calls it "Locrian Mode".
(Metallica and a list of Heavy Metal bands have made a fortune off of this)

So far we've used three scale tones, or "backdrops" if you will, for these [u]same[/u] [u]notes[/u]
each time achieving and expressing a different mood and feeling.
By now your heart should be [b]racing[/b] in anticipation as you wonder what moods can be expressed
simply by starting on the other four note choices-

What will you (and your listeners) feel when you play these [u]same[/u] [u]notes[/u]
but start on Root D and play up to the Octave D?
Root E up to Octave E?
Root F up to Octave F?
Root G up to Octave G?

If this strikes your fancy,
I suggest having a look [url="http://www.visionmusic.com/lessons/bassmodes.html"]HERE[/url]
for a further explanation into the Major/Minor Scales and the Modes
(along with sound examples of each!).

I sincerely hope this helps.

Here's the door my friend.
It's up to you to walk through...

[GonzoBass]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' post='908048' date='Jul 28 2010, 12:59 AM']What is this "four finger tapping riff"?[/quote]
I imagine that there are any number of them, young Jedi.


You might try this one for starters
(all hammer-ons, in this order):

[u]Left Hand[/u]-
First finger, 5th fret A on the E string
Third finger, 7th fret E on the A string

[u]Right Hand[/u]-
Second finger, 14th fret A on the G string
First finger, 14th fret E on the D string

Repeat,
faster and faster,
until it sounds like a card in the bicycle spokes-

Boo Gah Dee Dah Boo Gah Dee Dah
Boogah Deedah Boogah Deedah
Boogahdeedah Boogahdeedah
BoogahdeedahBoogahdeedahBoogahdeedahBoogadeedah...

[Low End Bee]

[quote name='GonzoBass' post='909484' date='Jul 29 2010, 05:36 PM']I'm soo glad you asked!



Here's the door my friend.
It's up to you to walk through...[/quote]

I understood all that! Thanks.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Low End Bee' post='909514' date='Jul 29 2010, 06:36 PM'] I understood all that! Thanks.[/quote]

+1

Neatly done GonzoMaster. I like that a lot.

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='XB26354' post='908286' date='Jul 28 2010, 03:31 PM']I am aware of the different meanings of the word rule, none of which apply to what you have written. In the end it is a discussion about semantics relating to the word rule, which is about as pointless as the original post.[/quote]

an original post so pointless that you have contributed four times to the thread.

[BTS_Spacebass]

This makes for good reading, my two cents is thus:

There is one "rule" that cannot be broken. If it sounds good it is good.

All else is frilly icing. I am neither for or against being self taught or getting lessons etc although I myself went down the self taught road which has sometimes meant feeling like i'm not getting anywhwere but I am, it just takes a bit longer to make sense of where i'm going.

Edited August 31, 2010 by BTS_Spacebass

[daz]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='898350' date='Jul 18 2010, 08:24 PM']Yes, I believe, as a rule, in C, the augmented 5th would be G# and, as my son said to me only the other day, 'augmented 5ths are awesome'. [/quote]

I would have thought kids more likely to say "[i]diminished[/i] fifths are awesome" Epscially after hearing the (in)famous Black Sabbath [i]Devils Interval![/i]

Edited September 3, 2010 by daz

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='daz' post='944958' date='Sep 3 2010, 09:19 PM']I would have thought kids more likely to say "[i]diminished[/i] fifths are awesome" Epscially after hearing the (in)famous Black Sabbath [i]Devils Interval![/i] [/quote]
Well, he probably likes those too but it ain't what he said.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='BTS_Spacebass' post='941387' date='Aug 31 2010, 08:56 PM']There is one "rule" that cannot be broken. If it sounds good it is good.[/quote]


If there is one thing that I have learned after gigging for 30 years, its that there are thousands of delusional musicians who have absolutely no idea that they are terrible. If it sounds good to them, it most certainly isn't. There are also plenty of musicians who think that a blues scale covers everything which it doesn't. If it sounds good, it may be but please don't rely on it unless you are absolutely sure of your ground.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='946799' date='Sep 5 2010, 11:41 PM']If there is one thing that I have learned after gigging for 30 years, its that there are thousands of delusional musicians who have absolutely no idea that they are terrible. If it sounds good to them, it most certainly isn't. There are also plenty of musicians who think that a blues scale covers everything which it doesn't. If it sounds good, it may be but please don't rely on it unless you are absolutely sure of your ground. [/quote]
I've often thought something sounded good, then I listened to the playback.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='daz' post='944958' date='Sep 3 2010, 09:19 PM']I would have thought kids more likely to say "[i]diminished[/i] fifths are awesome" Epscially after hearing the (in)famous Black Sabbath [i]Devils Interval![/i] [/quote]
I asked him. He's not impressed with diminished fifths at all. 'They go nowhere' he said.

[chaypup]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='946799' date='Sep 5 2010, 11:41 PM']If there is one thing that I have learned after gigging for 30 years, its that there are thousands of delusional musicians who have absolutely no idea that they are terrible. If it sounds good to them, it most certainly isn't. There are also plenty of musicians who think that a blues scale covers everything which it doesn't. If it sounds good, it may be but please don't rely on it unless you are absolutely sure of your ground. [/quote]


I wish you'd told me this when I started playing bass! Would've saved me a few years of being Sh*t before I started learning the rules!