Ever Heard of "Fullerplast"?

[xilddx]

I never believed that Nitro let the wood breathe and give you a real woody tone, in fact I don't believe a lot of the sh*t people say about wood, paint and tone, or neck joints for that matter.

If you get the latest copy of Guitar & Bass Magazine, there is a great article on relicing that blows a few daft myths away. Your lovely old nitro finished Fender has a load of crap underneath the finish to seal the wood and stuff. The magic "Fullerplast"!

I am glad in a way that my thoughts are somewhat vindicated, but sort of sad too.

[acidbass]

I've heard of the Fullerplast method being used a lot for Ash bodies, as the nitro tended to sink into the grain and make the finishing more difficult and time consuming. I think they finished some Alder bodies in all-nitro however.

Re: your thoughts on tone - it's all in the fingers eh?

[xilddx]

[quote name='acidbass' post='901944' date='Jul 22 2010, 02:20 PM']I've heard of the Fullerplast method being used a lot for Ash bodies, as the nitro tended to sink into the grain and make the finishing more difficult and time consuming. I think they finished some Alder bodies in all-nitro however.

[b]Re: your thoughts on tone - it's all in the fingers eh? [/b][/quote]
Nope, it's all in the POD X3

[Low End Bee]

50s Fullerplast - Tone enhancing vintage polyfiller.

The modern stuff is obviously rubbish.

[bumnote]

That storys been around for a while,
Theres a great article here all about paints and custom colours

[url="http://home.provide.net/~cfh/fenderc.html"]http://home.provide.net/~cfh/fenderc.html[/url]

[xilddx]

[quote name='bumnote' post='902024' date='Jul 22 2010, 03:34 PM']That storys been around for a while,
Theres a great article here all about paints and custom colours

[url="http://home.provide.net/~cfh/fenderc.html"]http://home.provide.net/~cfh/fenderc.html[/url][/quote]
Thanks for that link.

[4 Strings]

I must admit, I have never seen how the paint finish could 'let the sound out' of an electric bass or, even if this was possible, how this would effect how the strings vibrate over the pickup and, even if it did, how it would be a good thing seeing as the rest of the construction is trying to keep the sound in (massive bridges, stiff necks, hardwood bodies etc).

[essexbasscat]

[quote name='silddx' post='902074' date='Jul 22 2010, 04:19 PM']Thanks for that link.[/quote]

Wow, that is some read. Interesting stuff

T

[Adrenochrome]

It's all smoke and mirrors. The tone of a bass guitar is almost entirely down to the length and type of string, the type of pickup and it's position along and proximity to the string. Everything else has [i]minimal[/i] effect.

[essexbasscat]

[quote name='bumnote' post='902024' date='Jul 22 2010, 03:34 PM']That storys been around for a while,
Theres a great article here all about paints and custom colours

[url="http://home.provide.net/~cfh/fenderc.html"]http://home.provide.net/~cfh/fenderc.html[/url][/quote]


I meant this one

[Shambo]

I always assumed the 'breathing' a nitro finish allowed was moisture slowly dissipating from the wood over a period of years, whilst a poly finish was like wrapping it in clingfilm, keeping moisture in? Then, after a decade or two, your body would gradually become lighter and more resonant? I do confess to knowing sh*te all about it in honesty, and am prepared to be proved very wrong.

[Musky]

[quote name='Shambo' post='902317' date='Jul 22 2010, 08:29 PM']I always assumed the 'breathing' a nitro finish allowed was moisture slowly dissipating from the wood over a period of years, whilst a poly finish was like wrapping it in clingfilm, keeping moisture in? Then, after a decade or two, your body would gradually become lighter and more resonant? I do confess to knowing sh*te all about it in honesty, and am prepared to be proved very wrong.[/quote]
All plastics are porous to some degree, so to an extent they'll all allow the wood to 'breathe'. However wood doesn't just shed moisture as anyone who's subjected an instrument to damp or humid conditions will know.

Is the suggestion that instruments will sound great in the Mojave desert and crap in a rain sodden glen? And what happens when your bass picks up scratches, dings or buckle rash? If the wood breathing is so important maybe we should all be stripping back our basses.

[quote]It's all smoke and mirrors. The tone of a bass guitar is almost entirely down to the length and type of string, the type of pickup and it's position along and proximity to the string. Everything else has minimal effect.[/quote]

+1

[EdwardHimself]

[quote]It's all smoke and mirrors. The tone of a bass guitar is almost entirely down to the length and type of string, the type of pickup and it's position along and proximity to the string. Everything else has minimal effect.[/quote]


I disagree entirely that the choice of body wood has nothing to do with the end tone of your bass. Yes the pickup "picks up" the magnetic resonance of the strings. But the bridge works both ways: The tone from the strings is transmitted through to the body but at the same time the body transmits tone back to the strings. That's why solid body guitars have more "sustain". If you think about it it makes sense; N3L and all that. Of course the transmission of the tone back to the strings is going to be affected by what frequencies are absorbed by the wood and which are transmitted back to the strings. I personally find that certainly the sound i hear acoustically on my bass is very much transmitted into what i hear from the amp. And this is massively affected by the choice of woods and everything.

[essexbasscat]

Not supporting any one aspect of this discussion, but I would like to present the difference in acoustic sound between a strat and a les paul as evidence M'Lud

T

[xilddx]

[quote name='essexbasscat' post='902431' date='Jul 22 2010, 10:21 PM']Not supporting any one aspect of this discussion, but I would like to present the difference in acoustic sound between a strat and a les paul as evidence M'Lud

T[/quote]
But that's an electric guitar played without an amp, so the electric pert of it is not engaged. The electric parts are the most important part of the sound when amplified, ie. it's purpose. I don't believe the woods and finish have much effect on the electrically amplified tone.

[Shambo]

[quote name='Musky' post='902409' date='Jul 22 2010, 10:01 PM']All plastics are porous to some degree, so to an extent they'll all allow the wood to 'breathe'. However wood doesn't just shed moisture as anyone who's subjected an instrument to damp or humid conditions will know.

Is the suggestion that instruments will sound great in the Mojave desert and crap in a rain sodden glen? And what happens when your bass picks up scratches, dings or buckle rash? If the wood breathing is so important maybe we should all be stripping back our basses.[/quote]

If we took one piece of wood and made two guitar bodies, one with a nitro finish and one with a poly finish, to suggest the nitro one sounds better fresh out of the box would be madness, but I don't think anyones claiming that. I've played old Fenders and new ones and the older ones are generally easier to pitch without amplification because you can feel the string vibration through the body. I trust my own judgement to know that it's more than just a placebo effect created by a bit of 'mojo'. Anyone can grasp the differences between green timber and seasoned timber and I know which one I'd prefer for a solid bodied guitar.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_drying"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_drying[/url]
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilibrium_moisture_content"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilibrium_moisture_content[/url]

More variables than just the relative humidity of a geographical location will affect the timber reaching its 'equilibrium moisture content', namely temperature, air circulation and time. So it's not as simple as saying a Mojave bass would sound better than a rainy glen bass, as both will reach equilibrium moisture content eventually so long as stored sensibly, (ie not in a cold damp state with no air circulation for long periods). Air curing takes place over time measured in years, decades and lifetimes.

So the claim is, nitro is more porous and allows the wood to air cure quicker than a poly finish would? If thats true... I don't know. Any dings and buckle rash a guitar obtains are generally going to be negligable compared to the overall surface volume of the guitars body. Whether you should strip back your bass to the the grain is surely a personal preference based on what you want it to look and feel like but, under the right conditions, it must surely increase the rate at which the timber cures.

Claims that nitro finishes are more desirable and valuable than others can obviously be taken with a large pinch of salt due to sales hype and general bullshiting. That's my understanding of the situation.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Shambo

[hillbilly deluxe]

If you took 3 identical basses,one left with the body completely unfinished you would hear a difference.
This happened to me with a Jazz that Bass Doc built for me.I gigged it in its unfinished state for a couple of weeks,then had the body finished.
Unfinished it had a vintage Jazz vibe to it,finished,it seemed brighter/more modern sounding.

[Prosebass]

[quote name='silddx' post='901345' date='Jul 21 2010, 09:44 PM']I never believed that Nitro let the wood breathe and give you a real woody tone, in fact I don't believe a lot of the sh*t people say about wood, paint and tone, or neck joints for that matter.

If you get the latest copy of Guitar & Bass Magazine, there is a great article on relicing that blows a few daft myths away. Your lovely old nitro finished Fender has a load of crap underneath the finish to seal the wood and stuff. The magic "Fullerplast"!

I am glad in a way that my thoughts are somewhat vindicated, but sort of sad too.[/quote]

agreed

MDF bass anyone ?

[Adrenochrome]

[quote name='silddx' post='902474' date='Jul 22 2010, 10:48 PM']...The electric parts are the most important part of the sound when amplified, ie. it's purpose. I don't believe the woods and finish have much effect on the electrically amplified tone.[/quote]

They don't, it's a myth. I'm surprised by how many people perpetuate this myth and I'm concerned that people are paying way over the odds for intruments based on poor information.
Of course the type of wood does have an influence on the sound (however small), and that may well be significant to a real serious player looking for those small differences.

[Bloodaxe]

[quote name='Prosebass' post='902914' date='Jul 23 2010, 10:31 AM']MDF bass anyone ?[/quote]
Bindun - [url="http://everything2.com/title/Luthite"]Ibanez Ergodyne, anyone?[/url]

Also... this guy builds his own guits out af a variey of materials including MDF - Martin Fieber:



[quote name='Shambo' post='902751' date='Jul 23 2010, 04:26 AM']If we took one piece of wood and made two guitar bodies, one with a nitro finish and one with a poly finish, to suggest the nitro one sounds better fresh out of the box would be madness, but I don't think anyones claiming that.[/quote]
Ah... you can't make two bodies out of one piece of wood. Every cut from every tree is slightly different to every other cut. The grain varies, there can be hidden sap pockets or voids, disease & insect damage within the cut that may never become apparent. All of these can play subtle roles.

[quote name='Shambo' post='902751' date='Jul 23 2010, 04:26 AM']I've played old Fenders and new ones and the older ones are generally easier to pitch without amplification because you can feel the string vibration through the body. I trust my own judgement to know that it's more than just a placebo effect created by a bit of 'mojo'. Anyone can grasp the differences between green timber and seasoned timber and I know which one I'd prefer for a solid bodied guitar.[/quote]
I doubt that any serious luthier would use green timber, it's far too unpredictable. There's a more than fair chance that it'll shrink, cup/wind (i.e. warp/twist), & possibly shake (split). It's a fact that supplies of quality timber are very scarce compared to 40-50 years ago, with a heavy reliance on kiln-drying to "season", so I'd suspect that the greater resonance is down to having better cuts available at the time. FWIW, I can tune both my '80s Aria SBs by feeling the beats in the body resonance. Quartersawn vs Plainsawn may be a factor too, again depending on the timber.
Also, wrapping green timber in almost [i][b]any[/b][/i] kind of coating is a recipe for Wet Rot, as the moisture cannot escape. If Nitro was porous, it'd be a pretty rubbish coating for cars & yet that was it's biggest commercial application.

[quote name='Shambo' post='902751' date='Jul 23 2010, 04:26 AM']Air curing takes place over time measured in years, decades and lifetimes.[/quote]
Roughly 1 year/inch thickness - but may vary according to the timber. After equilibrium is reached the process slows down to a virtually imperceptible rate as the woods' oils oxidise and harden (I had an encounter with some 100+ year old Baltic Oak a while back & the edge on modern chisels would just fold up). Kiln drying doesn't get to the core, so an additional 'natural seasoning period' is a really good idea.

[quote name='Shambo' post='902751' date='Jul 23 2010, 04:26 AM']So the claim is, nitro is more porous and allows the wood to air cure quicker than a poly finish would? If thats true... I don't know. Any dings and buckle rash a guitar obtains are generally going to be negligable compared to the overall surface volume of the guitars body. Whether you should strip back your bass to the the grain is surely a personal preference based on what you want it to look and feel like but, under the right conditions, it must surely increase the rate at which the timber cures.[/quote]
Round objects, usually hairy (except in Brazil, I hear)

[quote name='Shambo' post='902751' date='Jul 23 2010, 04:26 AM']Claims that nitro finishes are more desirable and valuable than others can obviously be taken with a large pinch of salt due to sales hype and general bullshiting. That's my understanding of the situation.[/quote]
Nitro was the Industry Standard coating post-war and into the 60s. In the late 60s catalysed coatings (i.e. two pack) began to replace them partly because the dry film wasn't so flammable, but mostly because they had a much shorter curing time & didn't need low-temp bake ovens (or waiting an age for the finish to air-cure). Pre-war, nitro wasn't readily used, but Shellac (French/Button/Garnet polish) was. I agree with you about the hype - hey... it's old-school, so it [i][b]must[/b][/i] be vastly superior to this Modern Rubbish... Like, like the Mysteries of The Ancients, maan.. y'know, the Egyptians built the Pyramids with laser antigravity machines that they got from Atlantis... s'true that, I read it in Nexus, but the Guvmint hushes it all up.

Nitro is different to Poly is different to Oil is different to Shellac. They all offer a degree of protection & make the wood look a bit prettier, that's all.

I reckon Fablon would work just as well - Wayne?

Pete.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Bloodaxe

[Prosebass]

[quote name='Bloodaxe' post='903109' date='Jul 23 2010, 12:47 PM']Nitro is different to Poly is different to Oil is different to Shellac. They all offer a degree of protection & make the wood look a bit prettier, that's all.

I reckon Fablon would work just as well - Wayne?

Pete.[/quote]

Corian has always appealed to me as a material that could be good for bodies. Inert, Oil and Acid resistant, won't stain, no expansion or contraction. Bit heavy but a nice bit of milling could reduce that.

[url="http://www.touchtile.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/corian_colours.jpg"]Colours[/url]

[OldGit]

[quote name='Prosebass' post='903479' date='Jul 23 2010, 06:48 PM']Corian has always appealed to me as a material that could be good for bodies. Inert, Oil and Acid resistant, won't stain, no expansion or contraction. Bit heavy but a nice bit of milling could reduce that.

[url="http://www.touchtile.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/corian_colours.jpg"]Colours[/url][/quote]


I have a Corian/brass laminated nut on my Shuker .. Sounds great .. I'd not like a whole bass made from it though

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Adrenochrome' post='902213' date='Jul 22 2010, 11:04 AM']It's all smoke and mirrors. The tone of a bass guitar is almost entirely down to the length and type of string, the type of pickup and it's position along and proximity to the string. Everything else has [i]minimal[/i] effect.[/quote]
Your statement differs from those magic woods stories in one important way. It's demonstrable. The others are taken on faith.

Many vintage Fenders that have been touted as having magic breathing wood with nitro finishes weren't finished with nitro in the first place as not all Fender colors were nitro. Yet the faithful can hear the wood breathing solely because they believe it's nitro. I lump tone alchemists in the same group with psychics.

Having watched the religion of tone evolve over 4 decades I've noticed that finish was once the holy grail of tone and is now dropping rapidly as many booteak builders don't use it. Wood species and company logos now seem to be the biggies. Funny that ash versus alder didn't use to be the tone decider that nitro versus poly used to be.

A fun thing to do with nitro over poly believers is ask them if the color of the guitar has any effect on the tone. They will laugh at your silly idea and point out how ridiculous it is. They have no idea how different the pigments are and how much is in the finish. Where as someone who works with plastics would know that the color can have a dramatic effect on the porosity, hardness and density of the plastic. Just the sort of thing that's supposed to influence the tone.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='essexbasscat' post='902431' date='Jul 22 2010, 02:21 PM']Not supporting any one aspect of this discussion, but I would like to present the difference in acoustic sound between a strat and a les paul as evidence M'Lud

T[/quote]
What is the difference? And can you be specific? It would be best if you can list frequencies and not vague terms like round or anything not clearly defined. How have you isolated the difference caused by different string scales and isolated just the woods influence?

Can you tell the wood species of a guitar by listening to it un amplified and under what conditions can I test this?

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Shambo' post='902751' date='Jul 22 2010, 08:26 PM']If we took one piece of wood and made two guitar bodies, one with a nitro finish and one with a poly finish, to suggest the nitro one sounds better fresh out of the box would be madness, but I don't think anyones claiming that.[/quote]That's pretty much the claim of everyone who sprays it. And one of the great vintage paradoxes that vintage guitars weren't special when they were new. (funny how all Fenders get better with age but that's not "true" for Ibanez)
[quote]I've played old Fenders and new ones and the older ones are generally easier to pitch without amplification because you can feel the string vibration through the body.[/quote]So the claim is older guitars are better transmitters of vibration. That would mean they have less sustain. No vintage lover is going to take that rap
[quote]I trust my own judgement to know that it's more than just a placebo effect created by a bit of 'mojo'.[/quote]Trusting your own judgment is the mechanism of the placebo effect. Without it it won't work. It defines the placebo effect.
[quote]Anyone can grasp the differences between green timber and seasoned timber and I know which one I'd prefer for a solid bodied guitar.[/quote]
No guitar builder ever has used green wood for production. Green wood has a very specific meaning and it is never in guitars. The specific water content in wood can be measured easily and aged wood does not have less if it was kiln dried. Kiln dried and sawn wood will stabilize or season within a year and remain stable for decades after that. If it didn't some necks wouldn't go back and forth with the seasons.