Macca

[Waldo]

Quite the bell-end but an utterly amazing musician, one of, if not the best and an hugely underrated bassist.

[scalpy]

All these people saying Macca's a bell-end as if they have to work with him. Obviously I haven't either, but I know a man who has who can't praise him enough. He has endless tales of Paul rolling his sleeves up and getting involved, never ever mentioning his wealth and giving to charity on an epic scale. For somebody to live through what he has without any semblance of precedent would put any personality to the test, and you could argue that only George got close to being truly humble about it all. Musicians as a breed are proud of what we do or we wouldn't put ourselves in the position to communicate our ideas to an audience in the first place. Paul is quite rightly proud of his accomplishments and a lesser man would be even more boastful or whatever characteristic you wish to choose to describe him. If I had played bass in the Beatles I'd probably find it a little tricky not to mention it once in a while.

Musically I believe the word to describe his playing is eloquent. Always the right turn of phrase at the right time. One of the few bass players the average punter will do "air bass" to when he drops a fill in- I'm thinking "With a little help from my friends".

I can't believe there's 7 pages of this stuff and I don't believe anyone's mentioned him playing and singing at the same time. There's a video from the Magical Mystery Tour period where you can see him miming away admittedly but the bass line is bang on. I must remember the song. The earlier stuff maybe more simplistic but he rips through it.

And as to all this business about Entwistle and Jamerson. McCartney was doing a very different job for those songs. Most of us have played in more than one band and know that you just can't always do your thing. It's back to the right thing at the right time. The Beatles were about the lyrics, the melodies and the textures. Paul did what he needed to and considering the variety of material demonstrated an imagination way beyond what most other musicians are capable of to suit. Entwistle was effectively the lead guitarist in his band and Jamerson developed a niche for another equally fantastic way of playing, again very specific for the audience.

I'm staggered that so called musicians can't recognise what McCartney has achieved, especially as in many ways he has defined commercial bass playing.

[niceguyhomer]

Well said scalpy

[Bloodaxe]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='902365' date='Jul 22 2010, 09:16 PM']On the early Beatles songs - which were my era - I can't hear anything special at all. I've often heard people mention him, but can't hear anything different from the other 60s bands.

Please enlighten me to something that he did that was special.[/quote]
[i]For me[/i], this is rather special:



Why so? I'm pretty sure that this was the tune that got me into music, probably around 1968/9, when I was old enough to figure out how to work our Dansette Bermuda.

Listening back to it, it's a compact textbook of how to play R 'n' R bass... there's lot's of variation & a few little twists and changes to suit each part (like Willie Dixon's part in Johnny B. Goode). I'll have to have a go at transcribing it. An endless repetition of R, 3, 5, 6, 8 it ain't - a lesson many pub bluesers could learn from, in my opinion.

[quote name='Big_Stu' post='902731' date='Jul 23 2010, 02:17 AM']...Of his era I would put the Stones ahead in listenability (even if it was a word) and excitement. [b]And would put Chuck Berry & Bo Diddley way ahead in creating rock music as we know it today rather than what the Beatles did after them.[/b][/quote]
Won't argue with either point Stu, BUT... The 'British Invasion' - spearheaded by the Beatles - woke America up to what they'd already got & gave guys like CB, Bo, Muddy & John Lee Hooker a huge lift and helped get them mainstream recognition. Take out the Beatles Factor & I doubt that would have happened, and I'd venture that popular music would be rather different today.

Pete.

[niceguyhomer]

We had a Dansette don't know what model though - got it for Christmas one year along with Bobby Vee's The Night Has a Thousand Eyes and Dusty Springfield's Island of Dreams. It was red and beige with two cream knobs on the front - quality.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='Bloodaxe' post='906439' date='Jul 26 2010, 10:54 PM']Won't argue with either point Stu, BUT... The 'British Invasion' - spearheaded by the Beatles - woke America up to what they'd already got & gave guys like CB, Bo, Muddy & John Lee Hooker a huge lift and helped get them mainstream recognition. Take out the Beatles Factor & I doubt that would have happened, and I'd venture that popular music would be rather different today.[/quote]

Going to have to disagree with you there. The Brit Invasion started before The Beatles got over there. And it was the Stones who were playing Berry, Waters (he personally creditted The Stones with his massive career boost due only partly to the band name), Diddley & Howling Wolf in their set from day one, it was the main reason Richards & Jagger go together in the first place.

[alanbass1]

I have always thought Macca as a clever bass player who's playing compliments the songs (whether he wrote them or not - I love his playing on George Harrison's Something). The fact that he wrote so many classic songs that have lasted the test of time, has a good commercial voice and plays guitar and piano more than competently - and was part of one of/if not the most revered band of all time pretty, much puts him at the pinacle of popular music up with an elite few. For me it is hard to think of Macca solely as a bass player

[Stingray5]

[quote name='scalpy' post='906425' date='Jul 26 2010, 10:46 PM']All these people saying Macca's a bell-end as if they have to work with him. Obviously I haven't either, but I know a man who has who can't praise him enough. He has endless tales of Paul rolling his sleeves up and getting involved, never ever mentioning his wealth and giving to charity on an epic scale. For somebody to live through what he has without any semblance of precedent would put any personality to the test, and you could argue that only George got close to being truly humble about it all. Musicians as a breed are proud of what we do or we wouldn't put ourselves in the position to communicate our ideas to an audience in the first place. Paul is quite rightly proud of his accomplishments and a lesser man would be even more boastful or whatever characteristic you wish to choose to describe him. If I had played bass in the Beatles I'd probably find it a little tricky not to mention it once in a while.

Musically I believe the word to describe his playing is eloquent. Always the right turn of phrase at the right time. One of the few bass players the average punter will do "air bass" to when he drops a fill in- I'm thinking "With a little help from my friends".

[b]I can't believe there's 7 pages of this stuff and I don't believe anyone's mentioned him playing and singing at the same time.[/b] There's a video from the Magical Mystery Tour period where you can see him miming away admittedly but the bass line is bang on. I must remember the song. The earlier stuff maybe more simplistic but he rips through it.

And as to all this business about Entwistle and Jamerson. McCartney was doing a very different job for those songs. Most of us have played in more than one band and know that you just can't always do your thing. It's back to the right thing at the right time. The Beatles were about the lyrics, the melodies and the textures. Paul did what he needed to and considering the variety of material demonstrated an imagination way beyond what most other musicians are capable of to suit. Entwistle was effectively the lead guitarist in his band and Jamerson developed a niche for another equally fantastic way of playing, again very specific for the audience.

I'm staggered that so called musicians can't recognise what McCartney has achieved, especially as in many ways he has defined commercial bass playing.[/quote]
+1 from me too, scalpy, though may I just add that I did actually allude to Macca's singing and playing abilities on page 2 of this thread. That aside, I'm just wondering if the video/song from Magical Mystery Tour you might be thinking of is 'Hello Goodbye'? Great number and a lovely bass line.

[Bloodaxe]

[quote name='Big_Stu' post='906459' date='Jul 26 2010, 11:11 PM']Going to have to disagree with you there. The Brit Invasion started before The Beatles got over there. And it was the Stones who were playing Berry, Waters (he personally creditted The Stones with his massive career boost due only partly to the band name), Diddley & Howling Wolf in their set from day one, it was the main reason Richards & Jagger go together in the first place.[/quote]

[quote]When the Beatles left the United Kingdom on 7 February 1964, an estimated four thousand fans gathered at Heathrow, waving and screaming as the aircraft took off. "I Want to Hold Your Hand" had sold 2.6 million copies in the US over the previous two weeks, but the group were still nervous about how they would be received. At New York's John F. Kennedy Airport they were greeted by another vociferous crowd, estimated at about three thousand people. They gave their first live US television performance two days later on The Ed Sullivan Show, watched by approximately [b]74 million viewers[/b]—over [i][b]40 percent of the American population[/b][/i].[/quote] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_beatles"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_beatles[/url]
The Fab Four were quite partial to a Berry or Penniman tune.

[quote]The Rolling Stones' first US tour, in June 1964, was, in Bill Wyman's words, "a disaster. When we arrived, we didn't have a hit record [there] or anything going for us."[/quote] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rolling_Stones"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rolling_Stones[/url]
Admittedly, they turned that round over the following six months.

My thrust is that The Beatles '64 tour kicked off mainstream US interest in British acts, which the Stones exploited to their advantage (with a bit of prodding from Andrew Loog-Oldham). [i]That[/i] helped to push the Chicago Bluesmen to a wider US (& ultimately, global) audience.

Pete.

[risingson]

[quote name='scalpy' post='906425' date='Jul 26 2010, 10:46 PM']All these people saying Macca's a bell-end as if they have to work with him. Obviously I haven't either, but I know a man who has who can't praise him enough. He has endless tales of Paul rolling his sleeves up and getting involved, never ever mentioning his wealth and giving to charity on an epic scale. For somebody to live through what he has without any semblance of precedent would put any personality to the test, and you could argue that only George got close to being truly humble about it all. Musicians as a breed are proud of what we do or we wouldn't put ourselves in the position to communicate our ideas to an audience in the first place. Paul is quite rightly proud of his accomplishments and a lesser man would be even more boastful or whatever characteristic you wish to choose to describe him. If I had played bass in the Beatles I'd probably find it a little tricky not to mention it once in a while.

Musically I believe the word to describe his playing is eloquent. Always the right turn of phrase at the right time. One of the few bass players the average punter will do "air bass" to when he drops a fill in- I'm thinking "With a little help from my friends".

I can't believe there's 7 pages of this stuff and I don't believe anyone's mentioned him playing and singing at the same time. There's a video from the Magical Mystery Tour period where you can see him miming away admittedly but the bass line is bang on. I must remember the song. The earlier stuff maybe more simplistic but he rips through it.

And as to all this business about Entwistle and Jamerson. McCartney was doing a very different job for those songs. Most of us have played in more than one band and know that you just can't always do your thing. It's back to the right thing at the right time. The Beatles were about the lyrics, the melodies and the textures. Paul did what he needed to and considering the variety of material demonstrated an imagination way beyond what most other musicians are capable of to suit. Entwistle was effectively the lead guitarist in his band and Jamerson developed a niche for another equally fantastic way of playing, again very specific for the audience.

I'm staggered that so called musicians can't recognise what McCartney has achieved, especially as in many ways he has defined commercial bass playing.[/quote]

+ a billion to this post. If I'd graduated a few weeks ago instead of dropping out, McCartney paid a visit to my year at LIPA and sat down one on one with a lot of my friends and listened to their music, praising a lot of it and getting really enthusiastic. I was completely gutted I wasn't there.

[scalpy]

[quote name='Stingray5' post='906468' date='Jul 26 2010, 11:21 PM']+1 from me too, scalpy, though may I just add that I did actually allude to Macca's singing and playing abilities on page 2 of this thread. That aside, I'm just wondering if the video/song from Magical Mystery Tour you might be thinking of is 'Hello Goodbye'? Great number and a lovely bass line. [/quote]

That's the one! Drew a total blank last night, thanks.

[JTUK]

I could tell you a story of how a musician who played for him for years got sacked, but I wont as I haven't commented on him at a person.

I am not disputing his part in a great song writng partnership or his place in history because of it,
I just don't rate his bass playing.
It seems some people can't get their heads round the fact that there are more than a few who think the same on this board.

Refer to the title of this thread, and this is what you get 7 pages and counting for.

[Delberthot]

William Shears Campbell to give him his correct name is a dick.

I've never understood the appeal of his dull muffled basslines. The Rickenbacker nuts go crazy about his sound but it sounds as dull and muffled as it did when he played his cheap Gibson EB-1 copy.

He is an arrogant twat and I for one have learned nothing from him - a bit like Jaco to me - as soon as someone mentions him I get very tired.

[Big_Stu]

What the pro-Beatles party on here don't seem to be able to grasp is that statistics prove NOTHING, if it was the case then there'd be a part of this that belongs to the Spice Girls or Westlife.
When you get the "experts" using the phrase "so called musicians" against other posters here or decrying their abilities or tastes in any way just because their tastes differ from yours is nothing short of FASCIST!! Music NAZI's. What the hell is wrong with you people, was it something in your upbringing that you HAVE to have agreement in your personal tastes? Does it make you feel secure, does it make you belong?

As has already been proven on here MANY people don't like what McCartney did/does, that is their perogative, it's mine, they bore me, they send me to sleep, it's musak, I'd sooner stick pins in my eyes GET IT????? Are you McCartneyists too DIM to understand that, or do I need to click my heels & salute while I say it?

[Delberthot]

I forgot to add - the Frog Chorus? Silly Love Songs? Simply Having A wonderful Christmas Time? what utter sh*te.

[Bass Culture]

[quote name='Delberthot' post='906733' date='Jul 27 2010, 09:59 AM']I forgot to add - the Frog Chorus? Silly Love Songs? Simply Having A wonderful Christmas Time? what utter sh*te.[/quote]

That's big - pull 2 or 3 songs out of a cannon of several hundred, dozens of which are unarguably classics, to PROVE that Macca is 'utter sh*te'. Not really the most sophisticated form of argument really, is it?

BC

[lonestar]

[quote name='Delberthot' post='906733' date='Jul 27 2010, 09:59 AM']I forgot to add - the Frog Chorus? Silly Love Songs? Simply Having A wonderful Christmas Time? what utter sh*te.[/quote]

Arguably so (you forgot to mention C Moon!) but great bassline on silly love songs

[chris_b]

[quote name='Delberthot' post='906723' date='Jul 27 2010, 09:52 AM']....I for one have learned nothing from him....[/quote]
Ha, ha. Sorry DH but you can't escape that easily!

The guys who have influenced you were influenced by McCartney and the Beatles, the guys who wrote your favourite songs were influenced by McCartney and the Beatles and the guys who made your favourite records were influenced by McCartney and the Beatles.

Unless you've been living on another planet since 1962, as far as western popular music in the 20th century is concerned, they changed [i]everything[/i].

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Big_Stu' post='906725' date='Jul 27 2010, 09:53 AM']What the pro-Beatles party on here don't seem to be able to grasp is that statistics prove NOTHING, if it was the case then there'd be a part of this that belongs to the Spice Girls or Westlife.[/quote]
You may be confusing objective with subjective. Statistics are objective, opinions are subjective. It would be stupid to suggest that the Spice Girls were not wildly popular for a while but the statistics would show The Beatles to have a rather more enduring influence and legacy.

Of course an opinion is just that and cannot, really, be wrong. But it's a common mistake to extrapolate opinions into daft statements such as "I can't stand XXX, s/he's a crap musician".

I'd add Mull of Kintyre to the previous list of 'crap' Macca songs (IMO of course) but it adds little to the debate about his musical achievements.

I sometimes wonder if people confuse a dislike of Macca's musical achievements with his musical success.

[Waldo]

[quote name='Big_Stu' post='906725' date='Jul 27 2010, 09:53 AM']What the pro-Beatles party on here don't seem to be able to grasp is that statistics prove NOTHING, if it was the case then there'd be a part of this that belongs to the Spice Girls or Westlife.
When you get the "experts" using the phrase "so called musicians" against other posters here or decrying their abilities or tastes in any way just because their tastes differ from yours is nothing short of FASCIST!! Music NAZI's. What the hell is wrong with you people, was it something in your upbringing that you HAVE to have agreement in your personal tastes? Does it make you feel secure, does it make you belong?

As has already been proven on here MANY people don't like what McCartney did/does, that is their perogative, it's mine, they bore me, they send me to sleep, it's musak, I'd sooner stick pins in my eyes GET IT????? Are you McCartneyists too DIM to understand that, or do I need to click my heels & salute while I say it?[/quote]

I haven't been on here on a while so someone will have to help me out on this:

Is this guy some sort of wind up merchant?

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='flyfisher' post='906766' date='Jul 27 2010, 10:27 AM']You may be confusing objective with subjective. Statistics are objective, opinions are subjective. It would be stupid to suggest that the Spice Girls were not wildly popular for a while but the statistics would show The Beatles to have a rather more enduring influence and legacy.[/quote]
You don't even have to start trying to go as deep as that, just have the pathetic pro-McCartneys here accept that a lot of people just don't like what they hear when they a Beatles or McCartney song comes on, it's not difficult.

[quote name='Waldo' post='906770' date='Jul 27 2010, 10:30 AM']I haven't been on here on a while so someone will have to help me out on this:

Is this guy some sort of wind up merchant?[/quote]
Is that because you're not capable of asking direct?

[scalpy]

Chris_b has a really valid point.

I can't stand Weather Report and Jaco, notes for notes sake and technique as sport. But I've had to give way a little bit twice recently. Apparently Jaco has been quoted "Everything I do I learned off Jerry Jermott", one of my favourite bass players and nag dammit on further listening you can hear it. Then I find out one of my all time top basslines, "Rhythm Stick" was written hours after seeing Jaco in concert. And you can hardly say Weather Report will be troubling the all time radio broadcasts, album sales etc etc lists. Imagine how much McCartney's work has filtered into the system, I don't see how you can argue against it.

With regards to his tone, especially in the early days, just remember what technology they had available. Who in the 60s had a quality bass tone that would be remotely passable today?

Wyman used a short scale bass into an old wardrobe.
Jamerson pokes and woofles. (I love his music, honest)
Jet Harris totally indistinct.
Kaye see Jamerson (or is it the other way round)
Duck Dunn- my all time hero but you've got to admit flat sounding.
Don't even get me started on Jack Bruce
Redding- rattles around with no weight
John Paul Jones- the only rival to Paul.

These people would all feature in my top 20 bass players.

Of course many many people would disagree with the above but just go back and compare back to back any Beatles record with acts of the same time, those records still sound clearer, more open and lively and bigger than their peers. In fact on those dismal days I end having to listen to radio 2 on car journeys all day (I've broken it...) when a Beatles record comes on it sounds better than most. Of course Martin and Emerick have a lot to do with that but you can't polish a turd. Having thought of all that I'm very aware that I'm wandering into sharing my viewpoints and therefore that makes me a music nazi...

[scalpy]

Chris_b has a really valid point.

I can't stand Weather Report and Jaco, notes for notes sake and technique as sport. But I've had to give way a little bit twice recently. Apparently Jaco has been quoted "Everything I do I learned off Jerry Jermott", one of my favourite bass players and nag dammit on further listening you can hear it. Then I find out one of my all time top basslines, "Rhythm Stick" was written hours after seeing Jaco in concert. And you can hardly say Weather Report will be troubling the all time radio broadcasts, album sales etc etc lists. Imagine how much McCartney's work has filtered into the system, I don't see how you can argue against it.

With regards to his tone, especially in the early days, just remember what technology they had available. Who in the 60s had a quality bass tone that would be remotely passable today?

Wyman used a short scale bass into an old wardrobe.
Jamerson pokes and woofles. (I love his music, honest)
Jet Harris totally indistinct.
Kaye see Jamerson (or is it the other way round)
Duck Dunn- my all time hero but you've got to admit flat sounding.
Don't even get me started on Jack Bruce
Redding- rattles around with no weight
John Paul Jones- the only rival to Paul.

These people would all feature in my top 20 bass players.

Of course many many people would disagree with the above but just go back and compare back to back any Beatles record with acts of the same time, those records still sound clearer, more open and lively and bigger than their peers. In fact on those dismal days I end having to listen to radio 2 on car journeys all day (I've broken it...) when a Beatles record comes on it sounds better than most. Of course Martin and Emerick have a lot to do with that but you can't polish a turd. Having thought of all that I'm very aware that I'm wandering into sharing my viewpoints and therefore that makes me a music nazi...

[Bass Culture]

Can't disagree with anything that Scalpy's said there. I think another thing that's been slightly over looked is the musical environment McCartney operated in terms of his bass playing contribution. Remember, he started playing at a time when the first electric bass had only got into the UK about 5 or 6 years or so before! There was few people who could afford a quality electric bass at that time, let along had been in a position to record with one. Yet there are those who are lining up to criticise him for his tone! He was responsible for contributing to the creation of a new musical landscape for a new instrument, for God's sake! Of course his playing wasn't as sophisticated or technically adept as players who came after - he was, as has been accurately pointed out elsewhere, the inspiration for the players others are comparing him to and judging him against! Given all that, I still think he can play a bit.

[Delberthot]

I stand by my statement - utter sh*te.

I don't rate him at all, c'mon his solo stuff after the beatles was rank rotten and I don't really rate much of the beatles stuff at all.

Regardless of who was influenced by who, personally I don't buy into that crap at all. Unless you go out to intentionally copy someone then you have your own style. I may have a fretless but one mention of Jaco has me sleeping. I may have an EB-3 but I'm not trying to be Jack Bruce.

I have a hangover today so am not in a particularly good mood so please - I cannot stand the guy and that is my personal opinion, you don't have to like it or try to argue it.