Macca

[chris_b]

Poor old Bo got shafted by everyone back then, including Chess.

He turned up to a gig and was congratulated on his new record. But he hadn't made one!! He then discovered that Chess had used 2 of his demos and the rest of the album was another band playing in his style!

[discreet]

[quote name='scalpy' post='906425' date='Jul 26 2010, 10:46 PM']One of the few bass players the average punter will do "air bass" to when he drops a fill in- I'm thinking "With a little help from my friends".[/quote]

Agreed, but I also think Joe Cocker's version is one of the very few Beatles covers that are better than the original:

[wombatboter]

A really good one indeed...together with "Got to get you into my life" by EWF one of the best Beatles-covers.
McCartney once said that he was a bit disappointed by the interpretation which The Bee Gees gave to the Sgt Peppers album and that he had expected to hear a bit "more Bee Gee" instead of keeping too close to the Beatles. He loved the EWF -cover version.

[JTUK]

[quote name='chris_b' post='908205' date='Jul 28 2010, 02:02 PM']McCartney took bass playing from dum-de-dum to Sgt Pepper. After that there was no way any bass player was going to escape his influence.

He opened the door and the rest of us just walked through![/quote]


I can't go for that Chris, I think that overstates his case massively and misses so many others contributions.
I'll give you his popular appeal by virtue of records sold, but I can't see how modern bass playing lays at his door.

[scalpy]

JTUK

I'm very interested to know what music you're into. Not so that people can go (adopt anorak voice) "I think you'll find that in 1968 Bootsy Collins and Larry Graham spent an evening transcribing Ob blah di (sp)....) but to understand your viewpoint. 'Cos I must admit I'm finding it really difficult to appreciate, although I know that's my viewpoint and we're entitled to differ etc etc. But it's McCartney for the love of Pete!

[JTUK]

Scalpy.

Songs....with a groove would be the stock answer.

I don't have heroes or influences as such, just people who I like.
I probably have as many drummers who I listen to as bass players, followed by a few piano players.
If I could or would have learnt these instruments then I know who would have been the 1st references.


I can't say Jamerson or Entwhistle or JPJ or whoever because I never sat down and studied them.
Most of my formative years would have been listen to the NY stable of sessions guys and maybe a few of the west coast players, players who were about the groove, but not any one guy specifically.

If I had to pick 3 bass players, I'd say Paul Jackson as someone who I liked enough, MM as he was about that time and the only one consistantly slapping on a few records..we are talking about early 80's here, and Anthony Jackson who has that timeless style.

All 3 are players who have their own voice within a band so even as sidemen, you'd be able to know they were playing.
Piano players would be Richard Tee and I'll stop there because he was the nuts, IMV, possibly Sample. Everyone can hear Gadd and Chambers.

So with those kind of players, you can understand - or not- why you wouldn't even consider what McCartney may or may not have been doing particuarly as he was well past his sell-by date by then anyway. His playing output wouldn't even register.

As I have stated enough times previously, whatever he does playing-wise or did, it doesn't do it for me so he is of no consequence whatsoever.

Sorry. I don't think I want to repeat that fundemental truth for me anymore. People can say he was the best thing since slice-bread for them and I'll accept that they mean it but that certainly doesn't apply to me.

[discreet]

You have to remember that McCartney picked up the electric bass only ten years after it was 'invented'. He credits Brian Wilson as an influence (for playing more than just root notes in a song), and McCartney took this idea and pushed it on Sgt Pepper by, in some cases, playing lines through chords which did not actually exist in the songs, and further by playing a completely separate melodic line. This was radical, and did not happen outside jazz at the time (with the possible exception of Jamerson), who was a big influence on McCartney.

Whatever you think about the man now, he was certainly one of the pioneers of electric bass and should be accorded due respect for that alone, quite apart from his well-documented songwriting skills. IMHO.

[scalpy]

Fair enough.

All music for a very particular intellect and breed of ears, and no call either way on my behalf. As promised I'm not going to look for angles to "put you right" as it were. Thanks for the post back.

[discreet]

[quote name='JTUK' post='908582' date='Jul 28 2010, 07:50 PM']I'd say Paul Jackson as someone who I liked enough[/quote]

His playing on 'Secrets', specifically on 'Doin' it' absolutely blew me away when I first heard it in 1976.
'Secrets' was (and is) absolutely outstanding, and anyone who hasn't heard it should hear it. Now!

[thodrik]

I'm not a fan of the Beatles or Sir Paul's solo stuff. Its just not my thing and I think that the notion they influenced 'everybody' since is a bit of rubbish. Rock and pop music would have still existed, Buddy Guy, B.B King, Hendrix and Clapton would have still played guitar and I'm sure Pete Wentz would have still picked up the bass. Saying that Sir Paul is a very talented musician and a good solid bassist. Not really what I would call a virtuoso. I always thought of him as a bit of a guiarist that played bass, which he pretty much was.

I think the idea that he was the first bassist to play more than root notes is really overstated. He was probably a bit more influenced by classical music than a lot of electric bassists at the time, which in combination with his technique and short scale basses/rickenbacker gave his playing a different flavour than others at the time. I can't say I like that flavour, but millions of others do!

[discreet]

When I hear the word 'virtuoso'... I release the safety on my Browning.

Edit: With apologies to Hanns Johst.

Edited July 28, 2010 by discreet

[Delberthot]

[quote name='discreet' post='908589' date='Jul 28 2010, 07:56 PM']Whatever you think about the man now, he was certainly one of the [u][b]pioneers[/b][/u] of electric bass and should be accorded due respect for that alone, quite apart from his well-documented songwriting skills. IMHO.[/quote]



I once had a Pioneer Stereo and it was sh*t.

Accept the fact that not everyone likes him and not everyone want to be a brown nose toward him- I don't like him as a bass player, guitar player or any other player

[4000]

[quote name='JTUK' post='908582' date='Jul 28 2010, 07:50 PM']Scalpy.

Songs....with a groove would be the stock answer.

I don't have heroes or influences as such, just people who I like.
I probably have as many drummers who I listen to as bass players, followed by a few piano players.
If I could or would have learnt these instruments then I know who would have been the 1st references.


I can't say Jamerson or Entwhistle or JPJ or whoever because I never sat down and studied them.
Most of my formative years would have been listen to the NY stable of sessions guys and maybe a few of the west coast players, players who were about the groove, but not any one guy specifically.

If I had to pick 3 bass players, I'd say Paul Jackson as someone who I liked enough, MM as he was about that time and the only one consistantly slapping on a few records..we are talking about early 80's here, and Anthony Jackson who has that timeless style.

All 3 are players who have their own voice within a band so even as sidemen, you'd be able to know they were playing.
Piano players would be Richard Tee and I'll stop there because he was the nuts, IMV, possibly Sample. Everyone can hear Gadd and Chambers.

So with those kind of players, you can understand - or not- why you wouldn't even consider what McCartney may or may not have been doing particuarly as he was well past his sell-by date by then anyway. His playing output wouldn't even register.

As I have stated enough times previously, whatever he does playing-wise or did, it doesn't do it for me so he is of no consequence whatsoever.

Sorry. I don't think I want to repeat that fundemental truth for me anymore. People can say he was the best thing since slice-bread for them and I'll accept that they mean it but that certainly doesn't apply to me.[/quote]


You know, I suspected you'd more likely be a groove guy. I'm a melody guy, which is why I like him so much. I'm less interested in groove orientated playing (and music for that matter, eg Soul, R&B etc), I was always more into melody; my favourite player is probably Chris Squire, who in some ways took the McCartney thing, combined it with a dash of Entwistle and ran with it. I was thinking about this before and I figured that (although I'm sure it's a sweeping generalisation) the groove guys would like Macca less; a groove player he certainly isn't, and a groove band the Beatles certainly weren't. However I'm sure that some of your favourites would rate him highly as alluded to in my previous post; far higher than you do.

FWIW, I don't think anyone has a problem with Macca not doing anything for you (I certainly don't) but to think his contribution as an influential player was minimal, even if only in the 60s, seems really uninformed. Do I take it you weren't actually around in the '60s, or possibly that you don't read many interviews with well-known players? I'd certainly argue that McCartney is a far more influential player than any of the people you've mentioned (we're talking across the whole of music, from metal to indie to pop to rock and beyond, not just in a certain genre, and to players of every style and skill level) even if they can technically play the socks off him, and to be honest I'm pretty sure many of them would agree with me. I'll add that I grew up on Jazz (as in Ellington, Basie, Kenton, Parker and worked through Pop to Prog etc etc) so my stance is not an anti-technique thing; my tastes in music run from that through pop, rock, metal, punk and pretty much everything else. I'd say the guys you mention are slick players and Macca isn't really. However for me it's about the parts he wrote, that's all I really care about.

EDIT: Having read some of the above stuff I don't think anyone would argue Paul is anything like a virtuoso bassist. But what does that have to do with whether he's any good or not?

Edited July 28, 2010 by 4000

[discreet]

[quote name='Delberthot' post='908678' date='Jul 28 2010, 09:43 PM']I once had a Pioneer stereo and it was sh*t.[/quote]

Bad choice.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='Delberthot' post='908678' date='Jul 28 2010, 09:43 PM']I once had a Pioneer Stereo and it was sh*t.[/quote]

[quote name='discreet' post='908790' date='Jul 29 2010, 12:30 AM']Bad choice.[/quote]

Oh I don't know, you're entitled to your opinion of course ........ but you'd be wrong. I don't think you realise how pivotal and pioneering some Pioneer can be. I still have my Pioneer A400X amp, it was one of the first, if not THE first non valve amp to feature a straight through non-adjustable sound, it's all about the tone you see, it seems uninformed to think otherwise. It's great at Jazz (as in Ellington, Basie, Kenton, Parker and worked through Pop to Prog etc etc) so my stance is not an anti-technical thing; my tastes in music run from that through pop, rock, metal, punk and pretty much everything else.

[discreet]

My comment wasn't really about hi-fi.

[4000]

[quote name='Big_Stu' post='908837' date='Jul 29 2010, 06:01 AM']Oh I don't know, you're entitled to your opinion of course ........ but you'd be wrong. I don't think you realise how pivotal and pioneering some Pioneer can be. I still have my Pioneer A400X amp, it was one of the first, if not THE first non valve amp to feature a straight through non-adjustable sound, it's all about the tone you see, it seems uninformed to think otherwise. It's great at Jazz (as in Ellington, Basie, Kenton, Parker and worked through Pop to Prog etc etc) so my stance is not an anti-technical thing; my tastes in music run from that through pop, rock, metal, punk and pretty much everything else.[/quote]

Hey, I charge by the word you know.

FWIW, I don't think anyone is wrong to dislike him. If he doesn't float your boat fair enough, and he's certainly not a great technical player. I can completely understand why he wouldn't be some people's cup of tea. I do think arguing that he hasn't been influential is ridiculous though; that's not arguing taste at all. I don't like Clapton but to say he's not been influential as a guitarist would be ludicrous. Arguing that Macca wasn't at all influential is like arguing that the Romans never invaded Britain (I mean, what have they ever done for us? ).

[OldGit]

[quote name='wombatboter' post='907346' date='Jul 27 2010, 05:21 PM']Well : as a positive note, whether it's McCartney, The Kaiser Chiefs, The Smiths or anyone else : you can be proud of what the UK has contributed to popmusic. It beats Belgium ! :-)[/quote]

I'd like to personally thank Belgium for Adolphe, his saxophone and it's huge contribution to popular music for the last 100 years, at least.

[OldGit]

[quote name='discreet' post='908332' date='Jul 28 2010, 03:54 PM']Agreed, but I also think Joe Cocker's version is one of the very few Beatles covers that are better than the original:

[/quote]

And with the words, er, almost

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='4000' post='908880' date='Jul 29 2010, 08:39 AM']FWIW, I don't think anyone is wrong to dislike him. If he doesn't float your boat fair enough, and he's certainly not a great technical player. I can completely understand why he wouldn't be some people's cup of tea. I do think arguing that he hasn't been influential is ridiculous though; that's not arguing taste at all. I don't like Clapton but to say he's not been influential as a guitarist would be ludicrous. Arguing that Macca wasn't at all influential is like arguing that the Romans never invaded Britain (I mean, what have they ever done for us? ).[/quote]

You say that, but you & many others do the same thing. You say you respect other people's opinions but then in the next sentence say why they're "ridiculous" or imply "tastelessness" (in this case) for having such opinions.
My replies have merely been to say that it's incredibly rude to do such a thing. If it hadn't been happening this thread would be nowhere near as long as it has been. The last few pages of it have been more about pro-Maccas trying to brain-wash folk who think him "twee" or any other description into thinking that their personal opinion is flawed.

I also believe that the word "influential" is thrown around far too easily; I've a list as long as my arm of people who believe their favourite artist was "influential". Again, it must go back to some ingrained need to see approval for their chosen idol.
"Influential" in that it inspired someone to pick up a guitar to see what they could do? Yeah, sure, a cast of thousands, but in that respect Dave "Wammy" Walmsley, a mate of my dad's with the unfortunate band name "Wamm" was more influential to me, not McCartney.
[i]Lemmy falls into that category, McCartney was part of his reason for going to bass apparently (in an i'view I read) because of the sound of it, not [i][i]his[/i][/i] bass, just the bass sound in general. And no-one is going to say Lemmy has any of The Eyebrow's style are they[/i]?
"Influential" in that I copied what they did or a variation of it?? Absolutely not, far too boring (to me & many others on here) for that to happen.

That is a mixture of my certain knowledge and my beliefs. Neither you nor anyone else will change them, no matter how many permutations of "allowing someone's opinion; aah BUT" they may come up with.

What [i]I[/i] really don't "get" is why the Pro-Pauls are the ones who are having to keep coming back to harangue non-Pauls into changing their minds.

Edited July 29, 2010 by Big_Stu

[flyfisher]

[quote name='4000' post='908880' date='Jul 29 2010, 08:39 AM']FWIW, [b]I don't think anyone is wrong to dislike him[/b]. If he doesn't float your boat fair enough, and he's certainly not a great technical player. I can completely understand why he wouldn't be some people's cup of tea. [b]I do think arguing that he hasn't been influential is ridiculous though; that's not arguing taste at all.[/b] I don't like Clapton but to say he's not been influential as a guitarist would be ludicrous. Arguing that Macca wasn't at all influential is like arguing that the Romans never invaded Britain (I mean, what have they ever done for us? ).[/quote]
+1,000,000

Precisely. Disliking someone's music is, of course, fine. Indeed, it would be rather incredible if everyone in the world liked a particular song or album or even a whole style of music.

But it's simply daft to extrapolate that dislike into areas of factual inaccuracy, yet still play the "it's my opinion, so it's right" card.

"I hate Macca's music" - fine. Personal opinion, nothing really to discuss there. Move on.

"Macca can't play bass for toffee" - Er, just a little bit silly, don't you think? Might be worth a bit of discussion to try to correct an obvious misapprehension.

What next? "My opinion is that the Earth is flat, so don't try to tell me otherwise"?

Ultimately, of course, some people will never change their deluded belief that the Earth is flat, in which case any further discussion becomes pointless. A bit like this thread.

[wombatboter]

I don't want to convince anyone, I'm only here to share...

[4000]

[quote name='Big_Stu' post='908917' date='Jul 29 2010, 09:26 AM']You say that, but you & many others do the same thing. You say you respect other people's opinions but then in the next sentence say why they're "ridiculous" or imply "tastelessness" (in this case) for having such opinions.
My replies have merely been to say that it's incredibly rude to do such a thing. If it hadn't been happening this thread would be nowhere near as long as it has been. The last few pages of it have been more about pro-Maccas trying to brain-wash folk who think him "twee" or any other description into thinking that their personal opinion is flawed.

I also believe that the word "influential" is thrown around far too easily; I've a list as long as my arm of people who believe their favourite artist was "influential". Again, it must go back to some ingrained need to see approval for their chosen idol.
"Influential" in that it inspired someone to pick up a guitar to see what they could do? Yeah, sure, a cast of thousands, but in that respect Dave "Wammy" Walmsley, a mate of my dad's with the unfortunate band name "Wamm" was more influential to me, not McCartney.
[i]Lemmy falls into that category, McCartney was part of his reason for going to bass apparently (in an i'view I read) because of the sound of it, not [i][i]his[/i][/i] bass, just the bass sound in general. And no-one is going to say Lemmy has any of The Eyebrow's style are they[/i]?
"Influential" in that I copied what they did or a variation of it?? Absolutely not, far too boring (to me & many others on here) for that to happen.

That is a mixture of my certain knowledge and my beliefs. Neither you nor anyone else will change them, no matter how many permutations of "allowing someone's opinion; aah BUT" they may come up with.

What [i]I[/i] really don't "get" is why the Pro-Pauls are the ones who are having to keep coming back to harangue non-Pauls into changing their minds.[/quote]

I'm beginning to wonder what filter you've got on your pc screen that makes you read competely different things than I've written. I've just explained that I have no issue with someone liking McCartney. I don't expect you to like him, it's fine that you don't like him and I don't expect (or even want) to change your mind.

I do think however it's ridiculous to imply that he hasn't been influential because he so obviously has been. I don't like Marcus Miller and am not the world's biggest Jaco fan, but to deny their influence as bassists would be preposterous. It's not about who or what you like, it's about historical fact, or don't you believe in that?

By your own admission, "a cast of thousands" have picked up the bass because of him. I call that influential. That's as influential as it gets. Maybe your idea of influential is different; it certainly appears so. I've been greatly influenced by Stanley Clarke, Mark King, Jah Wobble and Matt Garrison. Do I sound like any of them? Not a jot. I couldn't stylistically play like Mark King if my life depended on it. I probably sound more like (as my mate puts it) "fast Lemmy". Would you recognise their influence on my playing? I doubt it very, very much. It doesn't mean it's not there. After a gig John Pattitucci once told Sting what an influence he'd been, with all the space in his playing, and Sting famously joked "funny, I never heard that!". You're implying that to be influenced by someone you have to end up sounding like them. Why?

How many Hofner Violin Basses have been sold simply because McCartney used one? The Rick 4001 C-Series was introduced as a tribute to him with the upside down headstock mirroring his. Ask Will Lee if McCartney has been influential as a bassist. If Jaco was alive you could've asked him. Same goes for Entwistle, who would probably grudgingly have admitted it. Ask Mani. And the same goes for many, many others, including by your own admission Lemmy. However I also never said that EVERYONE was influenced by McCartney. That would be ridiculous. I'm sure there are thousands he hasn't touched at all, you obviously included. But for every one that he hasn't influenced I'm sure there's another one he has, even if it is only to pick up a bass in the first place, which in my world qualifies as influential. Your judgement seems to be far more clouded by your dislike of him than mine is by the fact that I like his playing (I have no feelings either way on the bloke himself as I've never met him) if you can't even accept that he has influenced other people.

BTW, at what point did I "imply tastelessness"? You're reading stuff into my posts that simply aren't there.

Edited July 29, 2010 by 4000

[4000]

[quote name='flyfisher' post='908960' date='Jul 29 2010, 10:01 AM']"Macca can't play bass for toffee" - Er, just a little bit silly, don't you think? Might be worth a bit of discussion to try to correct an obvious misapprehension.[/quote]

I actually think this IS arguable, given your skill level and aims as a player. If you could play like Anthony Jackson or maybe Hadrien Feraud, you could argue that Macca can't [i]technically[/i] play bass for toffee, and I guess relatively speaking you'd have a point; not that I think either of those players would argue such a thing. But whether Macca is good, bad or indifferent as a bassist we could argue til the cows come home and there would be a thousand different equally valid viewpoints. What I find impossible to understand is people denying that a particular artist has been influential simply because they don't like them.

Edited July 29, 2010 by 4000

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='4000' post='909182' date='Jul 29 2010, 01:06 PM']I don't expect you to like him, it's fine that you don't like him and I don't expect (or even want) to change your mind.

I do think however it's ridiculous to..................[/quote]

That's three times you've done that now and YOU are asking ME if I'm reading things properly???

I haven't even bothered reading the rest of your post it's obviously a complete and utter waste of time, you must get sleepless nights if anyone doubts the magnificence of the object of your undoubted obsession.

I'm outta this complete waste of space. There's a bloke just gone for lunch here, he's "influenced" me into doing the same because obviously no-one's ever done that without him thinking of it have they?

Edited July 29, 2010 by Big_Stu