Help: Setting up a studio

[Beedster]

[quote name='charic' post='925011' date='Aug 14 2010, 05:11 PM']So how excited are u? I'm shocked digital village wouldn't get in without u paying. They got 6 keyboards in for me with no obligation of buying any![/quote]

How excited? Very very very! It's a Spinal Tap 11 on a scale of 10 for this one! Should have done it 20 years ago.

Don't get me wrong, DV247 were great, it's not that they wouldn't get stuff in, it's that they had none in stock, and all those coming in were already allocated to customers. They guy I spoke to said that he couldn't guarantee there would be one for me to try if I went to the store, even if I went the same day they were expecting delivery. To be honest, I just didn't want this process to drag on too much, and it certainly can't be any worse than stuff I've used in the past!


[quote name='EdwardHimself' post='925033' date='Aug 14 2010, 05:31 PM']Maybe It's just easier to sell keyboards than digital mixing desks?[/quote]

Fair point but think I was just unlucky that there's been a run on Mackie kit recently (or I'm just a sucker for a dodgy salesman's trick).


[quote name='ShergoldSnickers' post='925509' date='Aug 15 2010, 12:20 PM']Performance comparison of older 2009 iMacs to new 2010 iMacs [url="http://www.barefeats.com/imac10o.html"]here[/url]

Looks like the i3 processor is cranking things nicely in comparison to the older Core 2 Duos.[/quote]

Thanks mate, I owe you a beer or two for the heads up on that. DV247 have got me the 2010 model

Cheers

Chris

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='Beedster' post='925655' date='Aug 15 2010, 03:54 PM']Fair point but think I was just unlucky that there's been a run on Mackie kit recently (or I'm just a sucker for a dodgy salesman's trick).[/quote]

Oh no i just was thinking that they didn't want to get in any mixing desks for you, which turns out it's not true so you can pretty much disregard that comment

Edited August 15, 2010 by EdwardHimself

[Beedster]

Oh the waiting for the courier is killing me!

Right, in the meantime, next phase, monitors. As discussed above, I'm going to run at least two sets, one of which will be standard (albeit quite decent) home hifi speakers through a home hifi amp. So at this stage I'm looking for a pair of flat-response studio monitors to run alongside these. Whilst I appreciate that there is some very good stuff out there, I am not going to spend stupid amounts of cash at the moment (I was recommended some £5k speakers the other day, this is way beyond what I can spend).

So, some advice would be appreciated!

I'm expert in two areas really, bikes (the pedal variety), and basses. It's clear that with the former, if you're buying new, that an outlay of £1000 gets something 300% better than an outlay of £500, but if you spend £2000 you get something only 30% better than the £1000 bike (well, there or thereabouts). A similar relationship exists with basses but I'd guess at about 60-70% of the price of a new bike. So, what's the law with speakers? I'm probably looking for the equivalent of a £1000 bike or £700 bass at the moment, something that's three times as good as something half the price, but's at a price where spending twice as much won't make a massive impact.

Does that make sense?

Any suggestion as to how much I need to spend and what I should be spending it on?

C

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='Beedster' post='931776' date='Aug 21 2010, 11:38 AM']I'm expert in two areas really, bikes (the pedal variety), and basses. It's clear that with the former, if you're buying new, that an outlay of £1000 gets something 300% better than an outlay of £500, but if you spend £2000 you get something only 30% better than the £1000 bike (well, there or thereabouts). A similar relationship exists with basses but I'd guess at about 60-70% of the price of a new bike. So, what's the law with speakers? I'm probably looking for the equivalent of a £1000 bike or £700 bass at the moment, something that's three times as good as something half the price, but's at a price where spending twice as much won't make a massive impact.

Does that make sense?

Any suggestion as to how much I need to spend and what I should be spending it on?

C[/quote]


I think it's subjective as to how much better you think something is then something else. However, I would have thought you could get a nice pair of speakers for say £500 or thereabouts? Not an expert though so anyone who knows about these things feel free to call me an idiot

[JakeBrownBass]

I was mixing on a pair of these the otherday and they were bloomin fantastic!!

[url="http://www.proaudiosystems.co.uk/product-1556-4-28-147/active-monitors/quested-s7-active-moniter-each.html"]http://www.proaudiosystems.co.uk/product-1...niter-each.html[/url]

But the best thing to do is get to a store and try as many as you can.

Easiest way of doing this is by picking a song or recording that you know inside out and taking it to the shop with you. Then play it through as many as you can. Then pick a shortlist of maybe 4 or 5. Leave it a couple of days and then go back and do the same to the shortlist. This try and get it down to 2. At this point I'd say go home and read up on the 2 models. Then go back down acouple of days later and test them head to head, then take the better pair home. Monitors are a pretty personal thing.

Jake

[ShergoldSnickers]

Heard some very interesting B&W speakers the other day. I went to a high end audio shop with a mate who was after getting some quality gear, and half seriously he asked to hear the top of the range B&W speakers as used for monitoring in Abbey Road.

"No problem - I'll demo the bottom of the range as well, and you'll see just how good they are. Really."
"Yeah, right..." we said.
The 800 series beasts were stunningly impressive, and at £18,500 per pair ought to be. However, the diminutive bottom of the range B&W CM1 at £500 were also very, very good, and not at all phased by the monsters we had just heard. The clarity was a tad down, and deep bass extension was missing, but the overall sound was still revealing, open and didn't get in the way of the music. If there was something wrong - it was revealed. If the music gelled - it was revealed. The best smaller speakers I've heard in years. A pair went home with my friend.

I've since been able to listen in depth round at my mates house, and my opinion of them has only grown. They would make superb monitors in my book. You won't get earsplitting levels from them, but monitoring like that is asking for trouble in any case.

[url="http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/display.aspx?infid=4621"]The 800 Diamond monsters[/url]
[url="http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/display.aspx?infid=1065&sc=hf"]The CM1[/url]

Seriously, give them a listen if you can - the B&W website has a [url="http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/display.aspx?infid=1426&cid=223"]dealer locator[/url] where you should be able to arrange to hear them.

Edit: Added URL.

Edited August 21, 2010 by ShergoldSnickers

[charic]

My advice would be ignore the pricetag up to your limit price.

The brands I have the most experience with and in the order I would recommend are:
Genelec
Mackie
Yamaha
Tannoy

I'm sure there's others but forget.

Listen to a range in your budget. Eg.
3 pairs below 300
3 pairs below 600
3 pairs below 1000

Pick a favourite in each range and then listen to the difference between the three. If ever tour in Cambridgeshire feel free to pop round I have some Yamaha hs50ms.

I prefer active speakers BTW but bear in mind if you pick passive you will need an amp aswell.

[Beedster]

Thanks for the above guys

Something on which I need some clarification: I've heard lots of no doubt very sound advice along the lines of 'listen to some tracks you know through several sets and go with the speakers you prefer'. But I'm a bit confused here; 'prefer' seems kinda subjective, that is, it makes sense with a hifi, but I'm not sure I get it with monitors. I would have thought I'm expecting something that may not be all that pleasing to my ear/tastes, but which should provide a pretty clinical representation of what was recorded? Problem is, how do I know when I've found it? I'm worried I'll end up with something I like and not something I need.

Just interested in your thoughts really?

Chris

[charic]

If you have any amateur bands recorded tracks then any faults should be shown up.

It's a tough one to say which ones will best suite your mixing style tbh. I rink there's a few articles around for this kind of thing. I will have a think on it and report back later.

[Beedster]

[quote name='charic' post='932444' date='Aug 22 2010, 05:38 AM']If you have any amateur bands recorded tracks then any faults should be shown up.[/quote]

Ah, see your point. Recordings with faults, I think I've a few of those lying around Any suggestion re reading material on the subject gratefully received

C

[charic]

Had a brief think so far.

I remembered what my track was (pro), back in black. Characteristics I was looking for were:
Top frequencies of hihats / cymbals
Crispness of snare, which should sound harsh on pro speakers imho
Presence of the bassdrum
Listen for any mouth sounds from vocal track
Picking sounds on guitars
And listen to the presence of the bass and compare the clarity too an amp.

Basically you're listening for things you may or maynot usually hear. Any or all of these should be more pronounced for my mixing style.

[ShergoldSnickers]

[quote name='Beedster' post='932254' date='Aug 21 2010, 08:58 PM']Thanks for the above guys

Something on which I need some clarification: I've heard lots of no doubt very sound advice along the lines of 'listen to some tracks you know through several sets and go with the speakers you prefer'. But I'm a bit confused here; 'prefer' seems kinda subjective, that is, it makes sense with a hifi, but I'm not sure I get it with monitors. I would have thought I'm expecting something that may not be all that pleasing to my ear/tastes, but which should provide a pretty clinical representation of what was recorded? Problem is, how do I know when I've found it? I'm worried I'll end up with something I like and not something I need.

Just interested in your thoughts really?

Chris[/quote]
Unfortunately it [i][b]will[/b][/i] come down to what you prefer, as even £18,500 pairs of speakers are not without fault. All speaker systems are a compromise. There are no true reference monitors, and no engineers with absolute golden ears. Cloth ears yes, absolute golden ears - no!

This whole area can be immensely frustrating, as speakers are often subjected to all sorts of lab testing, can perform well on paper and yet there is just something not right when the brain gets it's cells on them. Measurements do not tell the whole story, but can also be immensely useful in context and with careful interpretation. It's partly down to the complex way our brains interpret sound - and we are all different and have different expectations of what constitutes the 'correct' sound - it's almost as subjective as defining 'a nice colour'. No speaker manufacturer designs a quality system without subjecting it to listening tests. If measurements were everything, they wouldn't need to.

Comparison of a few models will help - each will tend to expose the flaws and strengths of the others, but you will have to choose which compromise suits you best. That is, at least in part, a subjective decision. If a system sounds right with a huge range of material - spoken male and female voice, orchestral, country, jazz, prog rock, punk, death metal etc, then that is probably a good starting point. The B&Ws I mentioned have just swallowed everything I've thrown at them so far - but DO NOT take my word for it. Do your own research and choose what's right for you. You finding them lousy will affect neither my opinion of them, nor my opinion of you.

Charic has made some great points and suggestions by the way.

[charic]

Thanks shergold I try.

I've not come across the b&w's but then I don't work in the field at the moment.

One other point, don't underestimate the importance of them looking nice. Nice looking gear can inspire a band to play better and also make a band respect you a little more as a professional.

[Beedster]

[quote name='ShergoldSnickers' post='932666' date='Aug 22 2010, 12:16 PM']Charic has made some great points and suggestions by the way.[/quote]


[quote name='charic' post='932755' date='Aug 22 2010, 01:51 PM']Thanks shergold I try.[/quote]

Guys, you've both been a huge amount of help and I can't thank you enough. Both of you have no doubt saved me hours of time a a fair few quid so the beers are on me if we ever get to hook up!

I'm going to take a few band tracks as well as a few orchestral and jazz tracks (I'm guessing on the basis of the above that things such as the sounds of pages turning and valves opening and closing should pick up nicely).

C

[charic]

Yeah you got it

Some people like to use spoken word aswell but that may just be personal preference

[ShergoldSnickers]

[quote name='Beedster' post='933184' date='Aug 22 2010, 10:29 PM']Guys, you've both been a huge amount of help and I can't thank you enough. Both of you have no doubt saved me hours of time a a fair few quid so the beers are on me if we ever get to hook up!

I'm going to take a few band tracks as well as a few orchestral and jazz tracks (I'm guessing on the basis of the above that things such as the sounds of pages turning and valves opening and closing should pick up nicely).

C[/quote]
No problem. It isn't going to be easy to differentiate between those speakers that reveal detail - like valve clatter on brass - because they have some part of the spectrum boosted, for whatever reason, from those that reveal detail as a matter of course due to good design. The former should get tiring to listen to after a while, and sound less natural over a wide range of material. A great monitor just gets out of the way, lets the music through and sounds like it's doing precisely that. If it's drawing attention to itself, it isn't doing the job.

Just one final thought - whichever set of speakers you buy, try to get them up on proper stands. The idea is that you couple the mass of the speaker cabinets to the mass of your building and through that to the mass of the Earth . The energy available to the speakers for creating sound is then used to move the cones around, and not used to make the cabinets wobble about instead, as the cones will be the only thing that [i][b]can[/b][/i] move - the cabinets can't. This will mean stands that are rigid, and can couple properly to whatever surface you place them on. I've seen stands bolted to plates screwed into the floor, or alternatively spiked stands that dig into floorboards.

This is all based on Newton's third law of motion essentially. You are preventing the reaction to the cone movement from actually moving anything due to the cone seeing a very large mass to push against. The cone gets all the energy. This usually really tightens up the bass end amongst other things. (Must have a think about a stand for my bass cab )

Placing the cabinets on a large flat surface will only encourage that surface to act as a sounding board, colouring the sound.

[51m0n]

Re: Speaker stands:-

I've had blinding result bolting up to three concrete breezeblocks together with coach bolts, costs less than £10 ea. if you look around, weighs as much as a neutron star and looks cool in an industrial way, or really really cool if you spray them black (but that costs a bit more)

[ShergoldSnickers]

[quote name='51m0n' post='933354' date='Aug 23 2010, 09:17 AM']Re: Speaker stands:-

I've had blinding result bolting up to three concrete breezeblocks together with coach bolts, costs less than £10 ea. if you look around, weighs as much as a neutron star and looks cool in an industrial way, or really really cool if you spray them black (but that costs a bit more)[/quote]
Like it. Lots of mass, stable and can be recycled later.

[charic]

Black white Black for the win

[Beedster]

[quote name='ShergoldSnickers' post='933322' date='Aug 23 2010, 08:31 AM']No problem. It isn't going to be easy to differentiate between those speakers that reveal detail - like valve clatter on brass - because they have some part of the spectrum boosted, for whatever reason, from those that reveal detail as a matter of course due to good design. The former should get tiring to listen to after a while, and sound less natural over a wide range of material. A great monitor just gets out of the way, lets the music through and sounds like it's doing precisely that. If it's drawing attention to itself, it isn't doing the job.

Just one final thought - whichever set of speakers you buy, try to get them up on proper stands. The idea is that you couple the mass of the speaker cabinets to the mass of your building and through that to the mass of the Earth . The energy available to the speakers for creating sound is then used to move the cones around, and not used to make the cabinets wobble about instead, as the cones will be the only thing that [i][b]can[/b][/i] move - the cabinets can't. This will mean stands that are rigid, and can couple properly to whatever surface you place them on. I've seen stands bolted to plates screwed into the floor, or alternatively spiked stands that dig into floorboards.

This is all based on Newton's third law of motion essentially. You are preventing the reaction to the cone movement from actually moving anything due to the cone seeing a very large mass to push against. The cone gets all the energy. This usually really tightens up the bass end amongst other things. (Must have a think about a stand for my bass cab )

Placing the cabinets on a large flat surface will only encourage that surface to act as a sounding board, colouring the sound. [/quote]

Agreed re the problems of evaluation here. I think the approach I'm going in with is one of finding a realistic sound. having played in an orchestra, having played with sax players and trumpeters, and having been in the studio at the time we recorded the tracks of our own I'll be using, I'll be looking for something that allows me to hear the sounds you'd expect to hear at the level you'd expect t hear them. If a page turning, key opening, or idiot bassist sighing sounds unreasonably unrealistic, it won't be that set. If these things are absent, it won't be that set either.

Can't see this being a short process!

Re speaker stands, indeed, see below


[quote name='51m0n' post='933354' date='Aug 23 2010, 09:17 AM']Re: Speaker stands:-

I've had blinding result bolting up to three concrete breezeblocks together with coach bolts, costs less than £10 ea. if you look around, weighs as much as a neutron star and looks cool in an industrial way, or really really cool if you spray them black (but that costs a bit more)[/quote]

I have a set of monstrously heavy Atacama stands which I'm hoping will do the trick?

[ShergoldSnickers]

[quote name='Beedster' post='933544' date='Aug 23 2010, 12:41 PM']I have a set of monstrously heavy Atacama stands which I'm hoping will do the trick?[/quote]
Should so nicely. Look very solid judging from the website.

[51m0n]

Whatever you do, spend a good while trawling through this forum.

[url="http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-construction-acoustics/"]http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-cons...tion-acoustics/[/url]

Especially the stuff on bass trapping and absorption for the live room and the control room too.

There is a mass of really really good info on that forum (not without its crud though I'm afraid), serious bass trapping is a must in any smaller space, and getting the room treated as well as possible will make recording far easier and mixes far more likely to translate, regardless of your monitoring solution.

Cant stress this enough!

If you need a little encouragement check these two build diaries out (droolage):-

[url="http://www.gearslutz.com/board/photo-diaries-recording-studio-construction-projects/161575-manifold-recording-studio-construction-thread.html"]Manifold[/url]
[url="http://www.gearslutz.com/board/photo-diaries-recording-studio-construction-projects/341598-bridge-recording-studio-build.html"]Bridge[/url]

Enjoy!

Edited August 23, 2010 by 51m0n

[Beedster]

[quote name='51m0n' post='933811' date='Aug 23 2010, 04:04 PM']Whatever you do, spend a good while trawling through this forum.

[url="http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-construction-acoustics/"]http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-cons...tion-acoustics/[/url]

Especially the stuff on bass trapping and absorption for the live room and the control room too.

There is a mass of really really good info on that forum (not without its crud though I'm afraid), serious bass trapping is a must in any smaller space, and getting the room treated as well as possible will make recording far easier and mixes far more likely to translate, regardless of your monitoring solution.

Cant stress this enough!

If you need a little encouragement check these two build diaries out (droolage):-

[url="http://www.gearslutz.com/board/photo-diaries-recording-studio-construction-projects/161575-manifold-recording-studio-construction-thread.html"]Manifold[/url]
[url="http://www.gearslutz.com/board/photo-diaries-recording-studio-construction-projects/341598-bridge-recording-studio-build.html"]Bridge[/url]

Enjoy![/quote]

Thanks once again mate, that's this evening's reading sorted then

[51m0n]

[quote name='Beedster' post='941284' date='Aug 31 2010, 07:41 PM']Thanks once again mate, that's this evening's reading sorted then [/quote]

Pleasure!

However much of a financial black hole you thought bass kit was, you aint seen nothing yet - why do you think that forum is called Gearsluts

Having said that did you check out those two build diaries!! My god you'd need to win the Euromillions rollover to get that kind of build done!!!!

[Beedster]

[quote name='51m0n' post='941637' date='Sep 1 2010, 12:48 AM']Pleasure!

However much of a financial black hole you thought bass kit was, you aint seen nothing yet - why do you think that forum is called Gearsluts

Having said that did you check out those two build diaries!! My god you'd need to win the Euromillions rollover to get that kind of build done!!!![/quote]

LOL, I'm starting to realise that this is not for the feint-hearted is it! I just had to look at the first few pics of those diaries to realise we were talking something slightly mre ambitious than I'd ever be lucky enough to be involved in!

All joking aside, I might start buying Lottery tickets!

C