Help: Setting up a studio

[cheddatom]

I've stopped contributing 'cos I don't really know anything about monitors, but i'm still reading! Great thread.

[Beedster]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='941705' date='Sep 1 2010, 08:36 AM']I've stopped contributing 'cos I don't really know anything about monitors, but i'm still reading! Great thread.[/quote]

Well that's two of us Tom!

Courtesy of an extremely helpful and polite courier (I know....), I now have a mixer, an iMac, Pro Tools, assorted mics (which I picked up in an eBay job-lot and with which I'm going to make do for the time being until I really know what I'm doing). I'm going to monitor from my hifi speakers whilst I'm getting things set up (which will take some time), and then start looking at a decent set.

How excited?

Very

C

[synthetic]

I probably would have advised Logic due to the extensive features coupled with the inbuilt plugins and library really are very good and in abundance.

If I can offer a little advice. Don't throw loads of money at getting the biggest set of monitors you can, make sure you take the room measurements into consideration and also how well treated the room will be for them. There are some very good nearfields on the market these days, Opel, Dynaudio, Focal, Adam if you want to spend a good amount without going too crazy. Either you eventually choose you'll take some time to get used to their differences anyway.

Other than that I'd spend some time with it all and then work out what would make the process better. You can do a lot in the computer now so don't rush to spend all in one go.

[Beedster]

[quote name='synthetic' post='949565' date='Sep 8 2010, 04:21 PM']I probably would have advised Logic due to the extensive features coupled with the inbuilt plugins and library really are very good and in abundance.

If I can offer a little advice. Don't throw loads of money at getting the biggest set of monitors you can, make sure you take the room measurements into consideration and also how well treated the room will be for them. There are some very good nearfields on the market these days, Opel, Dynaudio, Focal, Adam if you want to spend a good amount without going too crazy. Either you eventually choose you'll take some time to get used to their differences anyway.

Other than that I'd spend some time with it all and then work out what would make the process better. You can do a lot in the computer now so don't rush to spend all in one go.[/quote]

Cheers, yes, not going to go crazy on monitors for sure. Given the advice of several members above, I'll need to A/B several pairs, and ideally in the room in which they're going to be situated, so I'm going to ask all BCers with decent monitors to send me theirs for a week at a time to make sure I make the right choice

All joking aside, I've set up the control desk with a pair of Denon hifi speakers on some pretty heavy speaker stands just below ear level, and I'm hearing stuff on these tracks I've never heard before. The ceiling above them is angled at 45 degrees which might be helping, but I'm amazed at the audio clarity when sitting so close to even pretty cheap speakers.

C

[Beedster]

Right, a couple of questions re monitors:

Firstly, Yamaha NS-10s, what the general view? I have the opportunity to get some pretty cheap. This would likely be a stop-gap between setting things up at home and moving into a bigger space sometime in the (hopefully near) future.

Secondly, I think I'm going to have to mount these either on a bracket or a shelf to get them at ear height. Does this make a lot of difference and if so, which is preferable?

C

[charic]

NS10s are my favourite monitors by quite a stretch. This is including the likes of genelec and other high ends. Only thing you would have to cinsider then would be the PA. Im not sure how far away you are but i doubt canterbury is particularly close. I would have happily brought over my monitors for you too try.

However if any travelling brings me over that way ill let you know.

[synthetic]

[quote name='Beedster' post='949967' date='Sep 8 2010, 09:52 PM']Right, a couple of questions re monitors:

Firstly, Yamaha NS-10s, what the general view? I have the opportunity to get some pretty cheap. This would likely be a stop-gap between setting things up at home and moving into a bigger space sometime in the (hopefully near) future.

Secondly, I think I'm going to have to mount these either on a bracket or a shelf to get them at ear height. Does this make a lot of difference and if so, which is preferable?

C[/quote]


They have a bit of a following as they are/were deemed standard in studios. Replicate what an average listener would hear at home and the old saying of getting a mix sounding good on them will sound good on most setups. They won't impress you to listen to but, that's not the point with them (unlike genelecs haha). The focus with them is in the midrange area so great for vocals and leads. I've owned a pair but, personally if you want a similar vibe nearfield I would look for a set of HHB Circle 5's. I use these myself and find them great to mix with and less fatiguing.

Also, I think the tree the cones is made from became protected which is why yamaha discontinued them. You can still pick up cones but, I don't know what the deal is with them.

I presume you mean the NS10m's which are mounted on their sides. Yeah get them set up around ear height in an equilateral triangle facing with the tweeters pointing just past your ears when you sit in the middle. Fix them with something that will not vibrated when played, stands would be better but, not essential. Your ears will adjust and get used to what ever you eventually choose to mix on.

[Beedster]

[quote name='charic' post='950022' date='Sep 8 2010, 10:31 PM']NS10s are my favourite monitors by quite a stretch. This is including the likes of genelec and other high ends. Only thing you would have to cinsider then would be the PA. Im not sure how far away you are but i doubt canterbury is particularly close. I would have happily brought over my monitors for you too try.

However if any travelling brings me over that way ill let you know.[/quote]

Hiya mate, many thanks, that's a kind offer. I think I'm going to opt for something quite standard and lowish cost at present and make a more informed decision when i move into a bigger space. The NS10m (see post below as that is the model I'm looking at) seems a good shout but I have to admit I overlooked the fact that it's passive and I think Id prefer actives.


[quote name='synthetic' post='950031' date='Sep 8 2010, 10:39 PM']They have a bit of a following as they are/were deemed standard in studios. Replicate what an average listener would hear at home and the old saying of getting a mix sounding good on them will sound good on most setups. They won't impress you to listen to but, that's not the point with them (unlike genelecs haha). The focus with them is in the midrange area so great for vocals and leads. I've owned a pair but, personally if you want a similar vibe nearfield I would look for a set of HHB Circle 5's. I use these myself and find them great to mix with and less fatiguing.

Also, I think the tree the cones is made from became protected which is why yamaha discontinued them. You can still pick up cones but, I don't know what the deal is with them.

I presume you mean the NS10m's which are mounted on their sides. Yeah get them set up around ear height in an equilateral triangle facing with the tweeters pointing just past your ears when you sit in the middle. Fix them with something that will not vibrated when played, stands would be better but, not essential. Your ears will adjust and get used to what ever you eventually choose to mix on.[/quote]

Thanks again synthetic, yep, I was talking about the littluns, although as I said above, I think I might prefer actives. I'm going to run whatever I get alongside some quite flattering hifi speakers, so I'm looking for something quite unflattering. I'll take a look at the HHBs also.

Man, I'm just looking forward to getting it al up and running and playing some bass again!

Cheers

Chris

[51m0n]

[quote name='Beedster' post='949967' date='Sep 8 2010, 09:52 PM']Right, a couple of questions re monitors:

Firstly, Yamaha NS-10s, what the general view? I have the opportunity to get some pretty cheap. This would likely be a stop-gap between setting things up at home and moving into a bigger space sometime in the (hopefully near) future.

Secondly, I think I'm going to have to mount these either on a bracket or a shelf to get them at ear height. Does this make a lot of difference and if so, which is preferable?

C[/quote]

I hate mixin on them, yeah they have some detail in the mid range, but you have to guess how much bass energy is going on by watching the cones for signs of flapping (really, they are tuned pretty high and if there is too much low end you cant hear it and have to watch for it) - so mixing on them is an art in and of itself.

You can very easily make a decent sounding mix on NS10s that wont translate very well at all IMO.

They are crap IMO

[Beedster]

[quote name='51m0n' post='950054' date='Sep 8 2010, 10:59 PM']I hate mixin on them, yeah they have some detail in the mid range, but you have to guess how much bass energy is going on by watching the cones for signs of flapping (really, they are tuned pretty high and if there is too much low end you cant hear it and have to watch for it) - so mixing on them is an art in and of itself.

You can very easily make a decent sounding mix on NS10s that wont translate very well at all IMO.

They are crap IMO[/quote]

They certainly seem to divide opinion

I'm thinking if I can get a pair of these (or a similar powered model) cheap now, they'll be a good option to run alongside a more considered choice further down the road?

C

[charic]

Hs50m's and hs80m's are the modern powered equivilant.

On a side note the reason ns10's were discontinued is because if you ATE one it was carcenogenic (i think thats how its spelt lol)

ns10s tend to divide opinion quite alot. Theyre very distinct sounding and much like in the bass world things like that tend to be very marmite. And yes they are quite tiring on the ears i expect its because of the strong midrange on them.

[synthetic]

Yamaha do a newer line (HS series) that I suppose could arguably be called replacements, which are actives. I haven't heard them myself so couldn't comment on them.

The Circle 5's were discontinued but, you can find them on ebay or sound on sound now and again. They do an active version also. Harbeth can still supply the cones as they hand make them. One of the reasons why they discontinued them was simply because they were not cost effective given the quality to price.

Honestly, I'd stick with the standard hi fi speakers for now until you've read loads up on what would be best for your room size. Sound on sound ran a blind test a few years ago on nearfields which made for interesting reading, worth having a look at. They covered different music styles from classical to dance and some favoured better than others.

When you get it all set up, run a spectrum analyzer which may help you.

[synthetic]

Charic beat me to it

[synthetic]

[quote name='charic' post='950067' date='Sep 8 2010, 11:09 PM']Hs50m's and hs80m's are the modern powered equivilant.

On a side note the reason ns10's were discontinued is because if you ATE one it was carcenogenic (i think thats how its spelt lol)

ns10s tend to divide opinion quite alot. Theyre very distinct sounding and much like in the bass world things like that tend to be very marmite. And yes they are quite tiring on the ears i expect its because of the strong midrange on them.[/quote]

It was definitely to do with the tree becoming protected. There's been talk of the cancer thing with other monitors, think it was Focals but, yeah you'd have to be one hungry mother f***er

Just going over what someone said about cone flapping. That's a bad mix when you're getting that, should be limiting and cutting some of the lows out so it's controlled. The old trick of holding a finger on the cone and feeling for the balance between kick and bass until it sat right haha

[JakeBrownBass]

From my experience & from talking to very experienced engineers & producers, if you can get something sounding good on ns10 it'll sound better on everything else but my god I wouldn't want to mix on them!

The reason all studios have them is for this fact alone.

Jake

[Beedster]

Whilst I agree that I can use my hifi speakers for the time being, I kinda want to try the NS10s (I've also found a pair pretty cheap). I can at least run them side by side. Anyway, is running the NS10s from a hifi amp, albeit run flat, going to defeat the object (the speakers I'm running at present are also 6ohms)? OK, I'm aware that most hifi amps are not flat even if set as such, but I've got two decent-ish hifi amps here and pending getting a decent power amp (or opting for a different monitor solution to the NS10) down the road, using one of these seems most economical?

Cheers

Chris

Edited September 9, 2010 by Beedster

[charic]

Im honestly not sure on that one mate...

[Beedster]

[quote name='charic' post='950845' date='Sep 9 2010, 05:25 PM']Im honestly not sure on that one mate...[/quote]

Wow, didn't think I'd ever catch you out Charic! It's NS10s or HS50s at the moment, the benefits of the latter being that I don't need a power amp, the benefits of the former that they will clearly teach me a lot about monitoring very quickly!

[ShergoldSnickers]

[quote name='Beedster' post='950791' date='Sep 9 2010, 04:34 PM']Whilst I agree that I can use my hifi speakers for the time being, I kinda want to try the NS10s (I've also found a pair pretty cheap). I can at least run them side by side. Anyway, is running the NS10s from a hifi amp, albeit run flat, going to defeat the object (the speakers I'm running at present are also 6ohms)? OK, I'm aware that most hifi amps are not flat even if set as such, but I've got two decent-ish hifi amps here and pending getting a decent power amp (or opting for a different monitor solution to the NS10) down the road, using one of these seems most economical?

Cheers

Chris[/quote]
Most amps worthy of the tag hifi should have made strenuous efforts to be flat. Mine has no tone controls whatsoever and is ruler flat. The NS10s although they have been periodically updated are a very old design - they were discontinued in 2001. Monitors have moved a long way since then. An experienced engineer will be able to cope well with them, just as they could cope with an SM58 or SM57 for delicate vocal parts for example. The point is that you wouldn't necessarily want to start from there. Overrated in comparison with modern designs in my opinion - like the aforementioned Shure mics, they have acquired a mystique way beyond their actual performance.

As ever, do NOT take my word for it - try them out if you can against several modern designs.

[Beedster]

Thanks guys, I've taken all of the above into consideration and opted for the HS50s, which I'll use alongside my hifi speakers for the time being. I know they'e far from state of the art, but I wanted a relatively flat monitor, albeit a pretty standard one, to get the ball rolling. I'll either replace them or add to them when I move into a decent space.

Right, that's iMac, desk, a few mics, monitors. I think I'm through the initial shopping phase and need to start hooking things up to other things and get going! The next buying stage will likely be acoustic treatments (gulp!)

Thanks for al your help and advice to date, it's greatly appreciated. I apologise if I seem to have ignored some of it, it's in no way a reflection on the advice, more a reflection of financial reality coupled with the need to get on and do things rather then end up on the shopping treadmill of 'this one does this well but that one does that well and this one does both but is three times as expensive', which, let's face it, is where I've found myself with basses all to often!

I'll keep you all posted on progress

C

[Beedster]

Ah, forgot, headphones, might as well sort these now as well. I've an old pair of Sennheiser's sitting around, but no idea what model or how good they are. I do know that they fall off my head pretty easily though, so probably not the best choice.

Thoughts?

C

[51m0n]

mixing or tracking?

mixing you want open - they sound more natural, tracking you want closed, stops the bleeding bleed dunnit....

Edited September 9, 2010 by 51m0n

[Beedster]

[quote name='51m0n' post='951001' date='Sep 9 2010, 07:58 PM']mixing or tracking?

mixing you want open - they sound more natural, tracking you want closed, stops the bleeding bleed dunnit....[/quote]

Both mate, that is, I'll be looking for both and could do with advice as to which to go for

Cheers

C

Edited September 9, 2010 by Beedster

[MythSte]

the Sennheisers you have should be fine for tracking. But thats about as much as I know on the matter!

If you have 2 sets of monitor speakers, do you need headphones for mixing? (Open question, I dont know the answer myself!)

[Beedster]

[quote name='MythSte' post='951017' date='Sep 9 2010, 08:13 PM']the Sennheisers you have should be fine for tracking. But thats about as much as I know on the matter!

If you have 2 sets of monitor speakers, do you need headphones for mixing? (Open question, I dont know the answer myself!)[/quote]

Cheers mate, re cans for mixing, I think it's another reference point really, especially given how much music is listened to via that media these days. Might be wrong for sure, I know the old conventional wisdom was 'never mix on cans', but I don't think there's any harm in referencing what you've done on them.

C