Drummers

[flyfisher]

The drummer in one of the two bands I play with quit last year. The classic 'musical differences' sort of thing. No big deal, it happens. He was a good drummer though - when he would condescend to play along with the rest of us.

So, we all have a chat about how to find another drummer and we identify three possibilities from people we know of, but without ever having heard them play. I should probably add that we're a 'recreational' band playing for the fun of it and performing around one gig per month, so we're not exactly hardened, highly-organised pro musicians. But we get by and quite often even get asked back!

Anyway, we sort of agree to ask our various drummer contacts with a view to having them sit in on rehearsal sessions to see how things gell. First drummer is a personal friend of one of the band members, used to drum about 20 years ago, has no kit and nowhere at home to practice, comes along and fits right into the band's personality and can knock out a reasonable rhythm. Obviously a bit rusty but hardly surprising given a 20 year lay-off. Nice guy.

The problem, I think, is that we somehow didn't get around to asking any of the other contacts and seemed to just assume the new guy would get up to speed and everything would be fine. One rather loose rehearsal later we had our first gig. It went OK but we really were not very tight at all, but you probably all understand how such things can go unnoticed in a party atmosphere when everyone has had a few drinks (not the band!) and are just having a good time. Plus, it's his first gig for years, he's under-rehearsed and nervous, so give the guy a break. He's a nice guy.

More rehearsals and he's getting the structure of the songs. He even buys a drum kit, though can't practice at home to really get up to speed. Then the tempo problems start to become more noticeable; it's as if he drifts off and goes onto autopilot with a vacant stare. A few comments later and things are back on track, sort of. Except that he hardly seems to use the kick drum and I'm having a bit of a problem locking onto his rhythm. A few more comments, then he says to me "it's OK, I'll follow you". But I'm not used to playing with a drummer who only seems to use snare and cymbals. Surely it's the drummer's job to provide that basic rhythm and the 'drive' for the whole band? Nice guy though.

The other band I play in has a really 'active' drummer who provides a real driving force and a solid kick that I can lock onto. Rather like the departed drummer I started off with.

The thing is, I'm finding it a bit hard to be the main tempo reference for the band. I can't lock onto the non-existent drum beat and, instead, find myself listening out to check if the drummer is keeping time with me - which he can if I just play root notes on the beat (which I once did for an entire song, but only the singer spotted the irony!) but as soon as I play something else he'll drift off - both physically and, I suspect, mentally! Its a bit difficult to explain but I'm becoming more conscious that we're not providing a solid groove for the rest of the band and overall we're nowhere near as tight as we used to be with the previous drummer, which is taking a lot of the fun out of it all - for me at least. But he is a nice guy.

Am I being unreasonable in my expectations? Any suggestions?

[steve]

I don't think it's necessarily the drummers job to anchor the song, that depends on the song itself, and the individual parts the band members play - if the drummer has a busy pattern to play, he'll probably rely on you to keep a solid foundation, that being said, it shouldn't be your job all the time either.

[xgsjx]

Show him some Cobus or JoJo Mayer videos to give him some encouragement & hopefully he'll look at their tutorials on YouTube (watching them makes me wanna take up drums!).
Get him a metronome going thru some headphones & just the 2 of you book somewhere for the 2 of you to jam some rhythms (a bit of drum & bass if you wish), this will help you to gel together then the rest of the band can fall in with the rhythm.

[Pete Academy]

I think you deserve a good drummer who keeps great time. Bad drummer, bad band. The drummer is the time keeper.

Just my opinion, folks.

[flyfisher]

Very fair point Steve, but, believe me, we're not talking about busy patterns here.

I've thought about a metronome and some headphones but, to be honest, am too soft to suggest it for fear of upsetting him. Especially because I think its a technique problem; he really doesn't seem to use the kick drum. I'm also a bit unsure of myself as this is the first time I've encountered such a 'passive' drummer and it has thrown me a bit.

I'll check out the suggested video and maybe drop a few hints!

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='911465' date='Jul 31 2010, 08:17 PM']I think you deserve a good drummer who keeps great time. Bad drummer, bad band. The drummer is the time keeper.

Just my opinion, folks.[/quote]
Yeah, that's always been my view, at our sort of level anyway. I take Steve's point above, but I don't think we're into that sort of territory yet - we need to nail the basics first and a drummer who can provide a solid beat, even without any fancy fills, must surely be the starting point.

But he's such a nice guy I don't have the heart to make it a big issue - nor do the others I guess.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='911465' date='Jul 31 2010, 08:17 PM']Bad drummer, bad band.[/quote]

Got it in one.

They've either got it, or they haven't. If they haven't, I personally couldn't bear to hang around while they find it.

Edited July 31, 2010 by wateroftyne

[MythSte]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='911476' date='Jul 31 2010, 08:35 PM']Got it in one.

They've either got it, or they haven't. If they haven't, I personally couldn't bear to hang around while they find it.[/quote]

Harsh, but so very true! I really don't have time for drummers who aren't on their game. Especially when I'm on mine.

[xgsjx]

Was your drummer a good drummer 20 years ago? If not, then sack showing him videos & whilst you're at it, sack him.
If he is just rusty & was once good, then it could pay off to work with him.

[Legion]

This is a really apt subject for me at the moment as I've been increasingly frustrated with our drummer who is likewise, a "very nice bloke". His timing drifts and usually drags really badly so I try to "pull" him along but it never works. I realised why the other day when he told me he never listens to the bass in anything! I give up and have had to start the ball rolling to get a new drummer. I feel horrible about it but to be honest the singer/guitarist/band leader agrees. It's made me start to look elsewhere to find a band that works and I don't want to do that so its come down to him, or me. I could rant on and on about the ways in which he is sucking the life out of the music but I have beers to drink and curry to order

I totally sympathise. Get rid of him if a talking to and some time does not improve anything.

Best of luck

[JTUK]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='911465' date='Jul 31 2010, 08:17 PM']I think you deserve a good drummer who keeps great time. Bad drummer, bad band. The drummer is the time keeper.

Just my opinion, folks.[/quote]

Exactly.


Also, when looking round for new players, get references. Our current guy came highly recommended from our no1 choice who just had too many commitments at the time we approached him. I think he may regret it now ( IMHO, ) but we are very happy with what we now have.
I knew him by name but not to play with and he is a bit more of a straight ahead rock guy but am nicely surprised when he throws something wild in
and the band rises to it. I like that in all players, personally.

But..if he can't keep solid time to a click, then that isn't good. If he can't make the track feel good, big NO. If he can't play from a limited brief (song ), that is not good..and if he can't practice at home, that is the biggest no-no of all. I wouldn't go to a gig underprepared having not touched my bass, and neither can he.
Wouldn't have it with anyone else in the band either, to a point that you would notice. And stamina is a thing with drums as well...more than any other instrument, IMO. So,...I don't play with friends just because they are friends..it really doesn't work and if you have to sack them..or whatever, well, you can see where this is going.

Music, for me, is about doing as well as you can..I get really REALLY frustrated otherwise.

You have to have your own acceptable levels within the confines you have..ie, other priorities like family, etc etc ..but if you have someone not making that level, it gets to you in the end, IME.

[TimR]

If he hasn't played for 20 years has he still got the legs to play the bass drum?

If he's not practicing at home it will take a long time to get them back.

Even a straight 1 and 3 should be good enough for rock though.

I played with a drummer for years who only listened to rock and could only play rock. Its very hard work when you are having to play extra to cover when trying to get music to funk and groove and the drummer doesn't get it. In the end I burned out and lost my temper with the whole situation. Let myself and others down. I should have quit a long time before it got to that.

He needs a practice kit or to spend time on his own in a studio. Our local rehearsal rooms will do evenings for £5 for solo players if you ring that night. Maybe check you local rehearsal rooms and suggest you both go down and jam 1 night a week?

[Spike Vincent]

Why did he stop playing 20 years ago? I personally expect the drummer to dictate pace,although I have spent many years working with drum machines.

[essexbasscat]

I started a thread a while ago titled 'ever noticed slowing up through songs'? or something very similar.

A band I was with some time ago used to play 'My Sharona' by the knack. After a while, the guitarist and the drummer would begin to slow down, claiming fatigue when questioned about it. Then came the day I decided to maintain the tempo myself and refused to slow down. Both drummer and guitarist didn't like it, but an audience member came up and said I was the only person holding the number together as they just started complaining, so they went rather quiet.

Since then, I'll slow up a little if everyone's tired or the circumstances are exeptional, but if a drummer regularly slows up he usually finds the tempo control has been taken over by the bass player.

For me, life is too short to waste it constantly performing at less than my best on the day. A rather well known bass tutor once told me that I should always aim to play with musicians that are in some way better than me. That way, I will always be inspired to improve my own playing and musicianship. I've always thought that was rather sage advice.

T

[flyfisher]

Thanks for all the comments; they pretty much reflect my own thoughts, which is reassuring in itself.

If I wasn't also playing in another band (with no such problems) I think I'd make more of an issue about it, but the others don't seem as bothered as me so I don't like to cause a big falling out. But I am getting increasingly frustrated that it's holding the band back from really progressing. I don't know why he stopped playing for so long, or how good he was back then and I hadn't thought of the possible stamina issue (he's early 50s). Personally, I think lack of practice is a big issue. I practice a lot at home because I want to be pretty much on top of things in the rehearsal room - out of personal pride as much as anything - but his practice is our rehearsal and I don't think a few hours a week is enough.

I'd been playing with the band for about a year with the previous drummer and we were making, I think, good progress - there's nothing like the feeling you get on stage when the whole band is really nailing a song after all the hard work in rehearsal (well, almost nothing ), but I think we've now gone backwards and six months on, we don't seem to be making the same sort of progress. Thanks for indulging me in airing my frustration!

[quote name='essexbasscat' post='911773' date='Aug 1 2010, 11:25 AM']A rather well known bass tutor once told me that I should always aim to play with musicians that are in some way better than me. That way, I will always be inspired to improve my own playing and musicianship. I've always thought that was rather sage advice.[/quote]
I reckon that's absolutely 100% spot-on (and one for the 'famous quotes' thread!).

Edited August 1, 2010 by flyfisher

[JTUK]

yep..basic time is basic..and you HAVE to have that.

Everyone, IMV, has to sing from the same song book, so if he can't or wont,or whatever, try and improve, then.....?????

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='essexbasscat' post='911773' date='Aug 1 2010, 11:25 AM']A rather well known bass tutor once told me that I should always aim to play with musicians that are in some way better than me. That way, I will always be inspired to improve my own playing and musicianship. I've always thought that was rather sage advice.

T[/quote]

+1

My first proper gig was standing in for a great bass player at a jazz-fusion gig. The band were all amazing and I couldn't hold a candle to the bassist. I sh*t meself and overheard people comment I wasn't as good, but it was a huge learning experience.

[Marvin]

Jamming with a drummer once and he said he liked to get a clear few of my foot tapping to the beat so he knew he was in time I replied that my foot was tapping to his kick. He's a good drummer, works well with others, apparently, but another thing was I just couldn't pick out a rhythm. It's partly my inexperience, but I like a good solid sound from the drummer that's keeping time. (There's also the fact that too much symbol bashing f@cks about with my ear 'oles).

[TimR]

[quote name='Marvin' post='911838' date='Aug 1 2010, 01:00 PM'](There's also the fact that too much symbol bashing f@cks about with my ear 'oles).[/quote]

The cymbals are quite bad for that too.

[Marvin]

[quote name='TimR' post='911996' date='Aug 1 2010, 04:27 PM']The cymbals are quite bad for that too.[/quote]
oops.

[Doddy]

The first question I have to ask is how did he get the gig if he didn't have a kit?
I don't think that stamina should be an issue. I know lots of drummers who have been playing for
30-40 years and can still play for hours with no problems. If they've got their act together they'll be fine.
As far as tempo goes,it's really the responsibility of the whole band. If you need to lead it from the bass,
then do so. That doesn't mean simplifying what you play,it means play strongly and solidly so that there is
no question where the time is. If the tempo is wavering slightly,I'd rather it get faster. I hate when the tempo
slows down.

[Lord Sausage]

i tend to just drive it myself. I just think whoever is most confident in the band should set it and drive it, whoever that may be.

[TimR]

[quote name='Doddy' post='912225' date='Aug 1 2010, 08:28 PM']...
I don't think that stamina should be an issue. I know lots of drummers who have been playing for
30-40 years and can still play for hours with no problems. If they've got their act together they'll be fine.
...[/quote]

I'm playing with a 60 year old drummer at the moment no problems. What I meant by the stamina is that he's not played for 20 years.

[Doddy]

[quote name='TimR' post='912269' date='Aug 1 2010, 09:20 PM']I'm playing with a 60 year old drummer at the moment no problems. What I meant by the stamina is that he's not played for 20 years.[/quote]

Alright cool.
If you don't play for 20 years,you will invariably lose your chops.Hell,if you don't play for 20 days you will notice your playing
will slip.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Doddy' post='912225' date='Aug 1 2010, 08:28 PM']The first question I have to ask is how did he get the gig if he didn't have a kit?[/quote]
We hired a kit at the rehearsal room. Unless you mean why did we go for a drummer without a kit who hadn't played for years? Er, pass.

[quote name='Doddy' post='912225' date='Aug 1 2010, 08:28 PM']As far as tempo goes,it's really the responsibility of the whole band.[/quote]
Yeah, I know what you mean and I wouldn't say we're all over the place. The issue is more one of not enough 'oomph' in the drumming; there's a lack of energy and drive, which is not helped by the lack of a solid kick drum. We played a gig at the weekend and had to ask him to play louder during the sound check - how many bands here experience that ?